KHoyaNYC
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Post by KHoyaNYC on Mar 4, 2009 7:59:38 GMT -5
If you're saying that we have a troubling trend of blowing big leads in critical games, I completely agree with you. Davidson in my mind was the worst of that. We get up in the second half and then play keep away on offense and hit the snooze button on defense. It's maddening.
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the_way
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The Illest
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Post by the_way on Mar 4, 2009 8:01:26 GMT -5
Get over yourself. For real.
This team has been improving since the Syracuse game.
You know what, how about giving the St. John's team credit last night. Those kids have had a crappy a season and a crappy program forever under Roberts and before than with all of their scandals under Jarvis' final years. Those kids did not give up scrapped hard and exploited are weaknesses as a team.
Our players did not give up either. They fought hard. I've seen more fight and togetherness from our team in these latter games, than i have all year. Our guys are improving. Its not the end of the world to lose to St. John's. We are in the big east where everybody can beat everybody. The same way we beat UCONN and Villanova, the same way St. John's can beat us.
JTIII is the best college coach in america. I'd take him over anybody in the country. He has worked wonders with this team. We have deficiencies, and even he knows that. But he has not given up, and neither has this team. We have areas where we need to grow and develop. And we have grown a little bit these last few games. You can see it. IN the players body languages, we are more together and in sync than we have been in the past. And we have a little fight in us.
We have had success for the last 3 years that nobody could ever dream of after the Esh era. And now folks want to throw JTIII under the bus? Have some perspective. This is a transitional year. It happens everywhere in college basketball.
We are improving, in baby steps. so what we make not make the NCAA's. But we got next year and the year after, and the few remaining games to get better and develop.
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Madgesdiq
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Post by Madgesdiq on Mar 4, 2009 8:04:12 GMT -5
You know, I expect better from you, Giga. Your post is the very definition of cherry picking, and it epitomizes how unbelievably spoiled the fanbase here has gotten. Do you people even remember the Esherick era? I do, because year 1 of that era was my freshman year. Just to recap, this was Esh's profile: 1999: 1st Round NIT Loss (to fraking Princeton!) 2000: 2nd Round NIT Loss (to Berkley) 2001: Sweet Sixteen (given to us by sheer dumb luck) 2002: Declined NIT bid 2003: NIT Runner Up 2004: 1st Losing Season in 27 Years At the time we were Editeded about Joe Lang thinking making the tournament every year was an unrealistic goal. We were Editeded because we hadn't won a Big East title in over a decade. We were Editeded because we were an afterthought in the college basketball world. In JTIII's 5 years, he's given us the following: - a Big East Tournament title - 2 Big East Regular Season Titles - a Regional Title - 3 NCAA appearances - McDonald All-American recruits Which is pretty much exactly what we freaking wanted. To paint JTIII now as some sort of terrible coach is just the epitome of shortsightedness and straight-up whining. I'm sorry, but it's impossible for us to be absolutely great every goddamned year, and part of being a fan is realizing that sometimes your gratification has to be delayed. Everyone keeps throwing around the Esherick years as analogous to this one, but if you ask me, we look an awful lot like that awful UConn team from few years ago. Obviously, that season doomed UConn to college basketball irrelevance forever. You're a bunch of petulant babies, and you sicken me. Excellent post. Bando. I don't know how long you hav been on the board, but GIGA was a charter member of the Esh fan club; therefore, his post needs to be taken with a grain of salt. Esh would still be coach if GIGA was AD. Davidson loss was frustrating at the time, less so when they had a shot in the air that would have sent them to the Final Four and defeated the eventual national champions.
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Post by hoyaheaven on Mar 4, 2009 8:12:46 GMT -5
The program has hit rock bottom...ok for SHU or SH, or USF...but won't cut it with embarrassed Hoya Alums...'cause Georgetown wants winners (not necessary BE championships every year)--but not bottom feeder whiners either. Why rock bottom? Just a very few examples: Weak D-1 coaching staff...4 players (at least) not of BE caliber...an AA center who is too soft and will never be in the mold of GU big men...a terrible recruiting strategy (who in their right mind would recruit the aformentioned four)...stubborn adherence to the P offense...internecine warfare 'cause the kids don't want to be losers and may have lost their trust in the coaches...a system that the kids simply won't buy but is being shoved down their throats. Recognize the disease? The last time it occurred we called it Esh's disease. And you know the cure. One last hope: an all new group of coaching assistants who espouse the modern game and D-1 (not Ivy League) recruiting ability. And then ask...is III for some reason not happy in this pressure cooker basketball? None of the above is very pleasant...but that's the reality of "rock bottom."
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KHoyaNYC
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Post by KHoyaNYC on Mar 4, 2009 8:13:39 GMT -5
Get over yourself. For real. This team has been improving since the Syracuse game. You know what, how about giving the St. John's team credit last night. Those kids have had a crappy a season and a crappy program forever under Roberts and before than with all of their scandals under Jarvis' final years. Those kids did not give up scrapped hard and exploited are weaknesses as a team. Our players did not give up either. They fought hard. I've seen more fight and togetherness from our team in these latter games, than i have all year. Our guys are improving. Its not the end of the world to lose to St. John's. We are in the big east where everybody can beat everybody. The same way we beat UCONN and Villanova, the same way St. John's can beat us. JTIII is the best college coach in america. I'd take him over anybody in the country. He has worked wonders with this team. We have deficiencies, and even he knows that. But he has not given up, and neither has this team. We have areas where we need to grow and develop. And we have grown a little bit these last few games. You can see it. IN the players body languages, we are more together and in sync than we have been in the past. And we have a little fight in us. We have had success for the last 3 years that nobody could ever dream of after the Esh era. And now folks want to throw JTIII under the bus? Have some perspective. This is a transitional year. It happens everywhere in college basketball. We are improving, in baby steps. so what we make not make the NCAA's. But we got next year and the year after, and the few remaining games to get better and develop. I'm not throwing anyone under the bus. I stand behind JTIII. I don't want anyone else as coach of this team. My criticisms of him are few and far between. But losing big leads is one of them. And it's not just in this"transition year" as you call it. We can all improve.
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Madgesdiq
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Post by Madgesdiq on Mar 4, 2009 8:23:11 GMT -5
No, this was a talented, but young team told to sit on the ball and wait for the clock to run out from 10 minutes on. Do you have evidence that these were JT3's instructions? Obviously the team stopped looking for shots and played terribly passive, but it looked to me that the team just completely tightened up and failed to execute. There was no on court leadership again. I highly doubt that in the 8 minute huddle, jt3 stated: "Guys! 10 passes and don't shoot until under 5 seconds on the shot clock! Greg, if you are within 5 feet of the basket, don't forget to make the extra pass! If you have a chance for a defensive rebound, don't be afraid to let them take the ball away from you, and if you happen to secure it, make sure you throw it away." jt3 can only put them in the best position to win. he can't execute. I had some issues with his subsitutions, and I think that the fact the team plays with such a lack of confidence in big spots definitely falls on him, but I highly doubt that was "strategy."
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Madgesdiq
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Post by Madgesdiq on Mar 4, 2009 8:25:21 GMT -5
The program has hit rock bottom...ok for SHU or SH, or USF...but won't cut it with embarrassed Hoya Alums...'cause Georgetown wants winners (not necessary BE championships every year)--but not bottom feeder whiners either. Why rock bottom? Just a very few examples: Weak D-1 coaching staff...4 players (at least) not of BE caliber...an AA center who is too soft and will never be in the mold of GU big men...a terrible recruiting strategy (who in their right mind would recruit the aformentioned four)...stubborn adherence to the P offense...internecine warfare 'cause the kids don't want to be losers and may have lost their trust in the coaches...a system that the kids simply won't buy but is being shoved down their throats. Recognize the disease? The last time it occurred we called it Esh's disease. And you know the cure. One last hope: an all new group of coaching assistants who espouse the modern game and D-1 (not Ivy League) recruiting ability. And then ask...is III for some reason not happy in this pressure cooker basketball? None of the above is very pleasant...but that's the reality of "rock bottom." If by "rock" you are talking about what occupies the space between your ears, and by "bottom" you are talking about the part of human anatomy that you come off as on this board, i agree wholeheartedly.
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KHoyaNYC
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Post by KHoyaNYC on Mar 4, 2009 8:26:27 GMT -5
Good point - changed my post now. We can't say for sure. But it is a reoccuring problem.
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the_way
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Post by the_way on Mar 4, 2009 8:42:17 GMT -5
KHoyaNYC, did we not win a lotta close games last year? I can't remember the actual stat number, but i believe it was significant.
reoccuring problem? welcome to college basketball. you are dealing with 18-22 year olds. in our case, mostly 18-20 year olds, where emotions and focus go through peaks and valleys throughout the course of a game.
we got beat by St. John's. its not the end of the world. its not what we didnt' do as opposed to what they did do.
folks, want to cite the Davidson game. guess what? Davidson was a damn good team. A couple of shots away from the final four.
we get beat by good teams. yeah, it happens in the world of competition. and now we have reoccurring problems? smh.
Are we THAT much better than St. John's? no we aren't.
Are we THAT much better than Seton Hall? no we aren't.
I mean, we got folks who still think we are better than a Cincy that beat us TWICE this year.
Wake up folks. We aren't that bad, but we aren't that good either.
The sense of entitlement from some of our fanbase needs to be done away with so they can get back to reality.
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Madgesdiq
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Post by Madgesdiq on Mar 4, 2009 8:45:42 GMT -5
Good point - changed my post now. We can't say for sure. But it is a reoccuring problem. Look, I am not an apologist. I think that JT3 gets the blame for the way the team played in the last 10 minutes. But I think it is preparation and execution, not strategy. Team has no on court leadership--although Wright has tried, and they play scared. The only reason we beat Villanova was because of great defense and 1 terrific drive by Wright. Same problems were evident in the failure to close that game out. Offense played just as tight, FTs were missed and no one wanted to shoot.
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NCHoya
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Post by NCHoya on Mar 4, 2009 8:59:14 GMT -5
I think we are just losing the forest for the trees here. JT3 overall has done a spectacular job. Anyone who witnessed the start of the Esherick era and the last years of JT2 era (my time on the hilltop) really could never dream of the level where JT3 has taken us. That alone makes him the best coach for this job. He is the ONLY coach that could have accomplished this outside of maybe the Top 5 coaches in America that Gtown could never afford to hire.
As for this season, and this sepcific game, I agree the blame goes to the staff. While SJU played ridiculous basketball the last 10 minutes of the game - 11 straight FTs (64% on the season), making tough shots over and over when a minute earlier they had a hard time hitting the rim culminating in Thomas's 6-6 FT performance (is a 54% FT shooter); the Hoyas needed to make some plays on the offensive, trading baskets was perfectly acceptable. I compare this to when we charged back against Cuse. I did not fault Boehiem, I thought we just started hitting everything in sight and Cuse was defenseless to our talent.
So all I am saying is have some perspective. The only real troubling thing I have seen in the 3 era is our inability to keep large leads. That is a philosophy thing that JT3 needs to think about. He is only 5 years into coaching at an elite level, these experiences will make him a better coach. I bet 5 years from now JT3 will not be making these same mistakes with the lead or player rotation on a young team. He is learning through all of this too.
Things will get better, this year is a giant craphole, but I look at this team and think a year from now we should be a BE contender.
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NCHoya
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Post by NCHoya on Mar 4, 2009 9:11:15 GMT -5
The program has hit rock bottom...ok for SHU or SH, or USF...but won't cut it with embarrassed Hoya Alums...'cause Georgetown wants winners (not necessary BE championships every year)--but not bottom feeder whiners either. Why rock bottom? Just a very few examples: Weak D-1 coaching staff...4 players (at least) not of BE caliber...an AA center who is too soft and will never be in the mold of GU big men...a terrible recruiting strategy (who in their right mind would recruit the aformentioned four)...stubborn adherence to the P offense...internecine warfare 'cause the kids don't want to be losers and may have lost their trust in the coaches...a system that the kids simply won't buy but is being shoved down their throats. Recognize the disease? The last time it occurred we called it Esh's disease. And you know the cure. One last hope: an all new group of coaching assistants who espouse the modern game and D-1 (not Ivy League) recruiting ability. And then ask...is III for some reason not happy in this pressure cooker basketball? None of the above is very pleasant...but that's the reality of "rock bottom." A team capable of beating Uconn, Cuse, MD, Nova and Memphis is not rock bottom. The only thing I will agree with is recruiting strategy can be questioned and an experienced Xs and Os assistant (vs AAU coaches) to help JT3 navigate a season is probably a good idea. But the overall tone of this post is embarassing. We are all frustrated, but this team is no where near the levels of USF, SHU, SJU, etc. If I offered to trade rosters and coaches today with USF/SHU/SJU, hell Cincinatti, WVU, Providence - would you do it? If the answer is Yes, then you are truly one of the most short-sighted fans I ahve ever come across. Really, go watch professional sports instead. There are peaks and valleys when you have to recruit new players each year that is what makes college sports so compelling. If you just want to be a short-sighted fan who craves instant free agent help and constant coaching changes, pro sports will suit you perfectly.
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Big Dog
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Post by Big Dog on Mar 4, 2009 10:42:47 GMT -5
Excellent post. Bando. I don't know how long you hav been on the board, but GIGA was a charter member of the Esh fan club; therefore, his post needs to be taken with a grain of salt. Esh would still be coach if GIGA was AD. Davidson loss was frustrating at the time, less so when they had a shot in the air that would have sent them to the Final Four and defeated the eventual national champions. Post of the year.* I can't see the name "GIGAFAN" next to a post without thinking of his vigorous Esh defending until the very last day. That he would suddenly come out swinging at JTIII now is hilarious. III has not been impressive this year. He's gambled a lot with his substitions and they haven't paid off. But to try and rewrite the past few years as if he just got lucky with Esh's players is an absolute laugh. If you don't remember, Ewing Jr and Wallace were keys to these teams, and they had nothing to do with Esherick--they came to Georgetown because of III. Roy Hibbert was hot garbage when he came to Georgetown, and thanks to incredible hard work by himself and in connection with the coaching staff, he turned into an All-Big East player. Are you suggesting Hibbert would have become Hibbert regardless of III's presence? Absurd.
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guru
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Post by guru on Mar 4, 2009 10:48:38 GMT -5
2005: Lose 5 straight. Out of the dance (forgive him, first year) 2006: Lose to winless USF and then blow a 15-point lead to 'Cuse in the BET (forgive him, we made the Sweet 16) 2007: Awesome 2008: Blow a 17-point lead to #7 seed Davidson in the 2nd round (forgive him, we were regular season champs) 2009: Blow an 15-point lead to St. Johns with the tournament on the line (Cincy and Seton Hall aside). There is no fluke. There is no reason. JTIII for all his "close game" accolades in response to the Esherick criticisms did it with Esh's recruits. Yes, yes, we must all believe he "molded" those recruits. Esh would not have. It was III's tutelage that made them great. If we believe that, he deserves a million a year. But this team is all his. And take away 2006-07 and the legacy gets blurry. It is one of tentative teams getting big leads in crucial situations, and losing them. It is one where nobody grabs Greg Monroe by the collar and tells him to take the shot. It is one where our talent is cautious and reserved and is afraid to score more than "their fair share" else ruffle feathers of the team and staff. It's one where we sit on the ball with 10 minutes left because we can "run the clock out" rather than attack and score. This is the problem. Tonight was no fluke. Until someone looks at JTIII and tells him he plays not to lose in the second half of big games, we will not be a championship team. Do you realize how pathetically weak your argument is when a very big portion of it is based on ignoring or "taking away" a FINAL FOUR SEASON? Truly one of the worst posts in board history.
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Big Dog
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Post by Big Dog on Mar 4, 2009 10:51:03 GMT -5
The program has hit rock bottom...ok for SHU or SH, or USF...but won't cut it with embarrassed Hoya Alums...'cause Georgetown wants winners (not necessary BE championships every year)--but not bottom feeder whiners either. Why rock bottom? Just a very few examples: Weak D-1 coaching staff...4 players (at least) not of BE caliber...an AA center who is too soft and will never be in the mold of GU big men...a terrible recruiting strategy (who in their right mind would recruit the aformentioned four)...stubborn adherence to the P offense...internecine warfare 'cause the kids don't want to be losers and may have lost their trust in the coaches...a system that the kids simply won't buy but is being shoved down their throats. Recognize the disease? The last time it occurred we called it Esh's disease. And you know the cure. One last hope: an all new group of coaching assistants who espouse the modern game and D-1 (not Ivy League) recruiting ability. And then ask...is III for some reason not happy in this pressure cooker basketball? None of the above is very pleasant...but that's the reality of "rock bottom." Congratulations, you will never be taken seriously again. Rock bottom is when your AD publicly states that competing for championships isn't the goal and you're happy to make the tournament once in a long while, while your losing head coach arrogantly tells everyone who will listen that he will be at Georgetown for 30 years. Rock bottom is going 4-12 in the Big East. Rock bottom is never making the NCAA tournament with Mike Sweetney as your featured player. I'm as disgusted by last night as anybody, but try and keep some perspective. Every program goes through ups and downs. Was Syracuse an embarrassment because they didn't make the tournament the last 2 seasons? We are two season removed from the Final Four and were a no. 2 seed and BE regular season champ last year who got beat in a de facto road game by a vastly underrated team that was THIS close to the Final Four. A lot will be on the line next season with basically the same team and no excuses as to inexperience. If they miss the tournament again, then its time to take stock of the big picture. For now, toss this season out the window, forget about it, learn from it, and get back to work.
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Bando
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Post by Bando on Mar 4, 2009 10:52:01 GMT -5
Yes, it is. You take away the good point in a data set, and the data set looks worse. Shocking!
I don't see at all how this is incompatible with the youth explanation.
That's not the issue. The issue is that because of our slow, possession-important type of play, JTIII errs on the side of getting back on defense (and shutting off the fast break). You can disagree with this, but our rebounding issues aren't because he's ineffectually teaching it or something.
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Bando
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I've got some regrets!
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Post by Bando on Mar 4, 2009 10:55:44 GMT -5
The program has hit rock bottom...ok for SHU or SH, or USF...but won't cut it with embarrassed Hoya Alums...'cause Georgetown wants winners (not necessary BE championships every year)--but not bottom feeder whiners either. Why rock bottom? Just a very few examples: Weak D-1 coaching staff...4 players (at least) not of BE caliber...an AA center who is too soft and will never be in the mold of GU big men...a terrible recruiting strategy (who in their right mind would recruit the aformentioned four)...stubborn adherence to the P offense...internecine warfare 'cause the kids don't want to be losers and may have lost their trust in the coaches...a system that the kids simply won't buy but is being shoved down their throats. Recognize the disease? The last time it occurred we called it Esh's disease. And you know the cure. One last hope: an all new group of coaching assistants who espouse the modern game and D-1 (not Ivy League) recruiting ability. And then ask...is III for some reason not happy in this pressure cooker basketball? None of the above is very pleasant...but that's the reality of "rock bottom." Congratulations, you will never be taken seriously again. Rock bottom is when your AD publicly states that competing for championships isn't the goal and you're happy to make the tournament once in a long while, while your losing head coach arrogantly tells everyone who will listen that he will be at Georgetown for 30 years. Rock bottom is going 4-12 in the Big East. Rock bottom is never making the NCAA tournament with Mike Sweetney as your featured player. I'm as disgusted by last night as anybody, but try and keep some perspective. Every program goes through ups and downs. Was Syracuse an embarrassment because they didn't make the tournament the last 2 seasons? We are two season removed from the Final Four and were a no. 2 seed and BE regular season champ last year who got beat in a de facto road game by a vastly underrated team that was THIS close to the Final Four. A lot will be on the line next season with basically the same team and no excuses as to inexperience. If they miss the tournament again, then its time to take stock of the big picture. For now, toss this season out the window, forget about it, learn from it, and get back to work. +100 Hoyaheaven, you are either completely insane or were in a coma during the Esh years.
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hoyatables
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Post by hoyatables on Mar 4, 2009 10:56:05 GMT -5
"Plagued the program?" Where the hell have you been living? I guess that Final Four and Big East titles really "plague" us all the time. Your idea of a pervasive in-game problem is "not winning every game". That's ridiculous. 2007 was great (The FF and Big East title of which you speak). Take it away, and what you have is 4 years where we beat Ohio State and every other time the chips were down, we blew it in catastrophic ways. That's not cherry-picking. I'm talking about the moments when the tournament (5 straight), a bye (USF), the BET ('cuse), and our season (Davidson) were on the line. That's a trend. Absurd. You've ignored: 1 - Beating Duke when they were #1. A HUGE win for the program. 2 - Any number of wins last year -- UConn at home, West Virginia on the road -- we didn't crumble there. 3 - 2007. You can't discount that. That's absurd. That's like saying Calhoun isn't a great coach if you discount the years he won the championship. Or that Thompson Jr. wasn't really a great coach if you discount 1982, 1984, and 1985. I mean, really. Really? We had a number of huge wins in 2007 in pressure situations. Against ND in the semis of the BET. Against UNC and Vandy in the NCAAs. And so on. Lots of epic games.
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Boz
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Post by Boz on Mar 4, 2009 10:57:29 GMT -5
Congratulations, you will never be taken seriously again. Rock bottom is when your AD publicly states that competing for championships isn't the goal and you're happy to make the tournament once in a long while, while your losing head coach arrogantly tells everyone who will listen that he will be at Georgetown for 30 years. Rock bottom is going 4-12 in the Big East. Rock bottom is never making the NCAA tournament with Mike Sweetney as your featured player. I'm as disgusted by last night as anybody, but try and keep some perspective. Every program goes through ups and downs. Was Syracuse an embarrassment because they didn't make the tournament the last 2 seasons? We are two season removed from the Final Four and were a no. 2 seed and BE regular season champ last year who got beat in a de facto road game by a vastly underrated team that was THIS close to the Final Four. A lot will be on the line next season with basically the same team and no excuses as to inexperience. If they miss the tournament again, then its time to take stock of the big picture. For now, toss this season out the window, forget about it, learn from it, and get back to work. Agree with Big Dog for the most part (especially the fact that anyone who thinks this is rock bottom is clearly an insane person). Have to disagree with one thing though" "Was Syracuse an embarrassment because they didn't make the tournament the last 2 seasons?"Yes. Yes, they were. Syracuse was also an embarrassment when they made two Final Fours. Syracuse was an embarrassment when the won the national championship. Syracuse is always an embarrassment. I hope we can all at least agree on that.
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Big Dog
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Post by Big Dog on Mar 4, 2009 11:09:16 GMT -5
Agree with Big Dog for the most part (especially the fact that anyone who thinks this is rock bottom is clearly an insane person). Have to disagree with one thing though" "Was Syracuse an embarrassment because they didn't make the tournament the last 2 seasons?"Yes. Yes, they were. Syracuse was also an embarrassment when they made two Final Fours. Syracuse was an embarrassment when the won the national championship. Syracuse is always an embarrassment. I hope we can all at least agree on that. You are absolutely, 100% correct. I've never been so embarrassed...
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