kellycpcm
Bulldog (over 250 posts)
Posts: 318
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Post by kellycpcm on Nov 27, 2008 19:45:15 GMT -5
We really miss a player like Patrick coming off the bench. We have no scoring from the bench - 2points today. WSU had more bench points than their starters. We're not using Julian correctly, he should get time with Greg as a team on the floor vs being his back up. They are not interchangable parts, just like Roy and Vernon were not interchangable.
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Highsmith
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,490
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Post by Highsmith on Nov 27, 2008 20:01:45 GMT -5
As with many others, the rebounding frustrated me. I saw WAY too many times where there was a rebound and 2 or 3 WSU guys were going after it and we had everyone just watching. If the ball is ANYWHERE near you--go for it.....you may tip it away or SOMETHING. Size is not the problem for us with rebounding.......it's all about effort and I didn't see us giving much of one on the boards. That HAS to change or we are in for some rough games. Many of us have said this for a few years now, but I think it is more important with this team as they grow and learn......there are other weaknesses that some of our recent teams haven't had, so the rebounding is important.
For me, there were a number of positives in this game however-
1. As RDF said, I think a lot of the problems we had were the result of people trying to do too much too fast. That should improve as time goes on and hopefully we'll see a better job tomorrow. Once everyone settles down, we should be in much better shape with shots, turnovers, etc.
2. Austin Freeman--he has clearly stepped up his game this year.
3. Greg Monroe--I was really looking forward to watching him play and wasn't disappointed for the most part. There were a few times in the second half where he showed he was a freshman, but overall......you can tell that he is an incredible player who should be a force for us the whole season. We just need to keep him on the floor without foul trouble.
4. Sapp and Summers--I agree we need 40 minutes of solid play from these guys, but they really came through in the 2nd half today. They are our veteran leadership and they are the ones who are the link to those teams from the past few years that don't panic and keep that poise that everyone talks about. The team was on the ropes in the 2nd half and Summers came through on offense while Jessie came through with drawing those offensive fouls and hitting FTs down the stretch. I would like to see Sapp look to score a little more and see Summers relax and let the game come to him......and be aggressive at the same time. I think it will come together for them and it was good to see our vets rise to the top when we needed them......
5. Free Throw Shooting--Other than that little hiccup by Chris Wright in our first game, it seems like we may actually have a very good FT shooting team. Greg looks very solid and all our other main guys--Sapp, Wright, Summers and Freeman look good too. Clark seems like he is good at the line as well. I haven't seen enough of the others to tell, but those guys I mentioned should be the ones at the line the most. That will help make up for some other shortcomings and REALLY help at the end of close games.
Looking forward to the game against Tenn tomorrow. I think we will see a different and better team--I never make predictions on here and won't start now. I'm just hoping we make a good showing and let the score fall where it may. This would be a great early win, but at the same time.....we know this team is a work in progress and there will be some stumbling blocks along the way. It won't shock me no matter how this game turns out.......but boy, a win would be sweet--and do wonders for the confidence of the whole team.
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Post by grokamok on Nov 27, 2008 20:35:34 GMT -5
We were also something like 4/24 from the field on jumpshots (anything other than a layup or dunk). That has to change, too.
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SFHoya99
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
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Post by SFHoya99 on Nov 27, 2008 21:17:05 GMT -5
At this point, I have to start wondering if some aspect of our coaching is a problem in terms of rebounds. I'm NOT questioning the Princeton system at all. But I AM questioning whether we approach rebounding the right way. What good is holding teams to a low FG%? If they shoot 20% but get 4 offensive rebounds every possession, then what have we accomplished? It would be extremely odd to tie the Princeton offense to our defensive rebounding. But it is obvious there's something about the staff -- whether it is the players they recruit, what they stress, or the style of defense we play -- that isn't making us a good D rebounding team. Even when we had Jeff and Roy playing together we didn't have a great D rebounding team. Sometimes it is as simple as how much zone you play.
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Post by JohnnyTwoTimes on Nov 27, 2008 22:19:40 GMT -5
This game was very disappointing. Look, I absolutely love JTIII; I lobbied for him as coach well before the end of the Esh Error. But just as one expects players to improve over the course of their careers, I would really like to see some improvement in the trouble spots which, by year 5, would appear to be systemic: rebounding, breaking the press, and zone offense. The last one, to me, was particularly galling today. We have the absolute perfect player to unleash on a 2-3 zone in Greg Monroe (something we did not have last year). Hit him in the high post and let him make decisions, whether passing back to a shooter outside, dishing to Summers cutting baseline (sorry to draw hifi out of his spiderhole, but this is how Florida cut up the Cuse zone last week with Alex Tyus destroying them finding the baseline gaps), shooting the midrange J or taking it to the hole. Monroe can do all of these things, and can do them better than just about anyone his size in college basketball. And yet I don't recall him shifting from the low post once in our zone "offense."
Moreover, someone's previous description of the offense as Esh-esque at times is on point. The possession where we came out of the timeout(!), kicked it around on the perimeter for 5 times and had to settle for a Wright 40 footer was abominable. If it doesn't take a lucky bounce off a Shocker on the rebound, we might have seen a very different result in this game.
I think JTIII is so good overall, and we have so much talent that I hope these things are addressed and we improve as the year goes on. But I would hate to keep seeing these same problems plague us year after year. As SF said, with some of these problems, you can still win games -- especially given our talent level -- but we'll have to address them eventually to win titles.
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RBHoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 4,135
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Post by RBHoya on Nov 27, 2008 22:26:42 GMT -5
What an ugly, ugly game. I mean, I know sometimes that's our style, we win ugly... And having watched this team the last 4 years I know enough now to not think that that tomorrow's performance will at all resemble todays. I mean, it's tough to feel confident right now, but I know it's completely possible that the team plays far better tomorrow. So, we'll see.
And I don't need to pile on III and it's no secret that I'm his #1 fan... but can we get a zone offense? Please? Passing it around the perimeter until the shot clock runs low and then throwing up a low-percentage shot has not worked well for the last 4 years, and it ain't working well now. I mean honest to god, if you can't come up with something better than this, let's bring in somebody else who can help (not saying somebody INSTEAD of JTIII, just like, an assistant or a consultant or something). It's hideous. The playbook for beating us is really pretty simple--apply some token full court pressure to take us out of rhythm, play zone defense, and be sure to crash the boards hard (especially on offense) because the rebounds are there for the taking. In the past we could maybe think that Jon/Roy/Pat/Tyler were just a certain type of player and for whatever reason they had certain weaknesses. But we've got a whole new crop of guys now, and the same problems exist, so I certainly think some adjustments have to be made from the bench to get those fixed.
Fortunately, I know they CAN make it happen. The talent is there, IMO. Hopefully we shoot better tomorrow and find ways to get the ball in to Greg in the lane... and maybe a little more punch off the bench, we could be alright.
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RBHoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
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Post by RBHoya on Nov 27, 2008 22:28:05 GMT -5
For the record I did not see JohnnyTwoTimes post before I made mine, but obviously we were thinking almost exactly the same way. The problems we have are pretty obvious and they're the same ones we've had in the past... time to find a way to solve them.
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RDF
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Post by RDF on Nov 27, 2008 22:31:29 GMT -5
One of the issues with rebounding--how hard the Hoyas play defense of the perimeter shots and have bigs hedge-when you do that--your bigs are out top and rotations get screwed up--and when you rely on 1 guy to intimidate/stop the penetration/challenge shots--the others have to help. If you watched certain times--I saw Greg stop penetration--find his guy and put a body on him--as did Freeman and DaJuan didn't--and guy slipped in for easy putback. It only takes 1 breakdown to make a team look bad on glass. Later in game--Summers did a great job of getting his guy and getting a board.
Nobody is perfect, and young teams playing their 3rd game in November certainly aren't. Let the team learn and improve before figuring out how they'll play come conference play.
I liked the ability to get points off turnovers and looking for quick hoops. Didn't like some of the execution but on some turnovers you could see what guys were thinking--and only need to improve upon the execution of the plays.
Thought a few guys on team just played excited/nervous and just need to play ball and relax. Nobody awards anything now--and you just need to play together and work together to get better--win or lose. November is about finding rotations that work, areas that are strong/weak and improving to get better. WSU did a nice job of battling/hanging around and strictly through competing for 40 minutes. Hoyas need to step it up tomorrow and I think they'll do that--play a better game and we'll see at this time if it's good enough or not--but I'm only focused on how they play/if they improve at this point in season--with anything else being a bonus.
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sleepy
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
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Post by sleepy on Nov 27, 2008 22:52:01 GMT -5
First time I saw the team play this season, and actually they played pretty much how I expected them to. A little sloppy, a bit excited, some really dumb plays by the underclassmen but also so pretty clutch plays by the upperclassmen. There are a lot of good things to take away from this game and a few bad things that can definitly be worked out. Our outside shooting was off to say the least, and our rebounding was pretty bad, but to their credit they did start getting rebounds when they really needed them late in the game. In regards to our press break, they were really doing all they could do, imo, its not like it was an all out press they were just putting some pressure on our guards bringing the ball up the court. We got it over halfcourt faster than we have the past two years, which is really all you can ask for with that kind of defense. Now our zone offense has been a problem in the past, but can we wait till December before we start calling for changes in the coaching staff. Nothing is being executed properly yet, so I will reserve my judgements on that. We did have too many turnovers, but unlike the last two years most of our turnovers were aggressive and, like RDF said, you could see the intentions of the players. I can think of atleast 7 right off the top of my head that were caused just because they guys aren't used to each other and the offense and would have been converted into easy layups in a couple of months. I will take aggressive turnovers, that could lead to baskets, that we had today over the passive ones of years past.
Also the best player on this team right now is Dajuan Summers. Monroe maybe the most physically gifted and have the most potential,but the last 5 minutes said everything we need to about this team. Now by the end of the year that may change, but right now this is Summer's team, and if we need a basket we are looking to him to get it.
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Post by harwoodhoya on Nov 27, 2008 23:10:56 GMT -5
I'm Editeded!
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richfame
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
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Post by richfame on Nov 27, 2008 23:11:02 GMT -5
This is the first time i saw gtown play as well and i was dissapointed. Im dissapointed cause its the same old crap. Why would any big man want to come here to play. Deshonte did the right thing not coming here. Greg monroe is going to be awesome, so WHY DONT THE GUARDS GIVE HIM THE BALL???!!!! Its the same think that happened last year with roy hibbert. Everytime monroe touched the ball it was either a good high percentage shot, a made basket or a great pass. I dont knwo about you guys but im sick of wright passing up a good l ook on monroe and jacking up n nba three, and please if your go ing to jack on up dont doo it from the corner cause how many times last year did he hit teh side of the backboard or miss it completly. I think this team is going to miss the heady play and smarts of walace. Ona positive note i disagree with the previous poster about summers, actually i think in the long run freeman is going to be the better more complete player for the hoyas. Summers is clearly the same ole summers jsut lingering around the 3 pint line and jacking them up, sure some go in hes a good player but he has to put it on the floor and drive or pull up for a mid range jumper. I just dont see him as the give me the ball ill be your leader. Just a cog in a whell and that Editedes me off. Anyways sorry i kinda have a negative post this game jsut felt like a loss to me. I guess ill just remind myself were young and have to gel, and monroe is better than advertised.
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sleepy
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 6,079
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Post by sleepy on Nov 27, 2008 23:25:54 GMT -5
This is the first time i saw gtown play as well and i was dissapointed. Im dissapointed cause its the same old crap. Why would any big man want to come here to play. Deshonte did the right thing not coming here. Greg monroe is going to be awesome, so WHY DONT THE GUARDS GIVE HIM THE BALL???!!!! Its the same think that happened last year with roy hibbert. Everytime monroe touched the ball it was either a good high percentage shot, a made basket or a great pass. I dont knwo about you guys but im sick of wright passing up a good l ook on monroe and jacking up n nba three, and please if your go ing to jack on up dont doo it from the corner cause how many times last year did he hit teh side of the backboard or miss it completly. I think this team is going to miss the heady play and smarts of walace. Ona positive note i disagree with the previous poster about summers, actually i think in the long run freeman is going to be the better more complete player for the hoyas. Summers is clearly the same ole summers jsut lingering around the 3 pint line and jacking them up, sure some go in hes a good player but he has to put it on the floor and drive or pull up for a mid range jumper. I just dont see him as the give me the ball ill be your leader. Just a cog in a whell and that Editedes me off. Anyways sorry i kinda have a negative post this game jsut felt like a loss to me. I guess ill just remind myself were young and have to gel, and monroe is better than advertised. Summers is not the same old Summers, he is actually attacking the basket this year and stepping up in clutch moments with something OTHER than a three point shot. Also I don't know how you can say you sick of seeing Wright jacking up NBA range threes when he only took four, and one shouldn't even count because he was given the ball with 1 second on the shot clock and I remember the other three and his feet were basically on the college three point line, two were both pretty good looks that just didn't fall. Maybe your getting confused because you are used to the second line being the NBA range but there is no NBA line on this court. Also, Monroe was not being neglected in the offense, the only one that really had any trouble getting him the ball was Sapp, who has always been pretty poor with entry passes. Monroe, when he got the ball wasn't as effective in the second half, he missed a few layups had a couple of turnovers, no big deal, but you can't blame the guards for that. Will people just relax, its the THIRD game of the season. We aren't supposed to be good in November. I would be a little nervouse if we were clicking on all cylinders because the only way to go after that is down. Also, please remember JTIII is still playing with line-ups. If we had kept the starting five in after we went up 9-0 we probably could have ran away with it early, but the expierence Clark, Vaughn, Wattad and even Simms are getting is invaluable. Remeber how bad we looked three games into the 06-07 season, IMO it was even worse.
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Nevada Hoya
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Post by Nevada Hoya on Nov 27, 2008 23:30:12 GMT -5
In a couple of cases we had three guys go up for the rebound, but it bounced off our hands. They have to secure the ball - a matter of timing and strength. I was so disappointed in our offense vs the zone, that I was looking at other games to see how other teams work against the zone. Teams are going to play zone against us predominantly, so we have to learn. Of course, hitting 17% of our threes contributed.
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royski
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Post by royski on Nov 27, 2008 23:37:43 GMT -5
The rebounding is the really bothersome bit for me. If we cannot rebound, there is a ceiling on how good we can actually be, and that ceiling is below a national title. Not a single JTIII team has been able to rebound, not even one that started a front court of DaJuan Summers, Jeff Green and Roy Hibbert. There is no reason for us not to find a man, box out, and have somebody go and get the damn ball. Just like every other team in the nation.
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sleepy
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
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Post by sleepy on Nov 27, 2008 23:50:10 GMT -5
The rebounding is the really bothersome bit for me. If we cannot rebound, there is a ceiling on how good we can actually be, and that ceiling is below a national title. Not a single JTIII team has been able to rebound, not even one that started a front court of DaJuan Summers, Jeff Green and Roy Hibbert. There is no reason for us not to find a man, box out, and have somebody go and get the damn ball. Just like every other team in the nation. Well if your talking about as a program I think that is a bit of an overreaction. Like you said we aren't a good rebounding team, even with Green and Hibbert, but we still got to the final four and we didn't lose because of lack of rebounding. So our rebounding issues this year may put a ceiling on our season, but under JTIII rebounding issues really don't but a ceiling on how all his teams can do.
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PopeJohn2
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Ultimate bailout is yet to come and unavoidable. Uncle Sam gonna pay your debt for you!
Posts: 1,465
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Post by PopeJohn2 on Nov 27, 2008 23:51:08 GMT -5
dreaded zone. games like this is where we will miss jwall.
unc looks unstoppable.
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idhoya
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
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Post by idhoya on Nov 28, 2008 0:12:11 GMT -5
Can anyone explain to me why 6'10, 230-lb. Henry is shooting 3's?
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SFHoya99
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
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Post by SFHoya99 on Nov 28, 2008 0:19:58 GMT -5
The rebounding is the really bothersome bit for me. If we cannot rebound, there is a ceiling on how good we can actually be, and that ceiling is below a national title. Not a single JTIII team has been able to rebound, not even one that started a front court of DaJuan Summers, Jeff Green and Roy Hibbert. There is no reason for us not to find a man, box out, and have somebody go and get the damn ball. Just like every other team in the nation. In the Final Four year, we were an average defensive rebounding team and one of the best offensive rebounding teams in the nation. So we have had good rebounding teams under III. And I don't think it is a surprise it was in the one year where we started a real PF at PF. On the other hand, we've never had a great defensive rebounding team, even that team. But sometimes people seem to expect to never give up an offensive rebound. Even the best defensive rebounding teams in basketball give up an offensive rebound one in every four opportunities (25%). And average is usually somewhere around 32-33%. The 37% we gave up was probably six more rebounds than 25%, but only three or so than the 32%. Now, it was Wichita State, so you hope you can do better than average there, but let's not act there is any team out there giving up 0 offensive boards. This team has been awful on the boards, but it is overkill to say that JTIII teams have never been able to board.
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sleepy
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
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Post by sleepy on Nov 28, 2008 0:58:07 GMT -5
Also, for those dissappointed in the team and how they played, I think I should remind you things are probably going to get worse before they get better. I fully expect this board to maintain a negative vibe until early to mid February.
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SFHoya99
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
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Post by SFHoya99 on Nov 28, 2008 0:57:00 GMT -5
From the Hoya Prospectus commentary (Link Here)Amongst many other things, I found these points interesting: - "Defensive rebounding continues to be a problem for the Hoyas, although rebounding is clearly the Shocker's great strength - coming into the game, WSU was the best defensive rebounding team in the country (OReb% allowed = 16.5%) and a very good offensive rebounding team (OReb% = 42.5, 25th)."
It's not an excuse, but the Shockers aren't a mediocre rebounding team.
- We were 3-18 on threes, but Wichita State was similar, but a bit better. However, we were only 1-3 on two point jumpers -- which, depending on the distance, can be the worst shot in college ball, while Wichita State was 4-16.
If there's a hidden strength to our D, it's forcing jump shots. And a hidden strength to our O is not taking 18-foot jumpers.
- We're shooting 23% on the season on threes. Effect of the extra foot? Effect of little to no inside game? Just a small sample? That's the big question. But CO properly gives it its proper importance -- it may actually be a bigger issue so far than the rebounding.
- We had a really high assist rate because we didn't make any field goals. We won this game at the FT line. The officials were a bit erratic (though not for college), but we forced the issue a bit more than usual and got to the line. Shooting 78% from the line was huge.
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