|
Post by strummer8526 on May 27, 2008 15:28:06 GMT -5
"He told the Star that the Hoyas' offense didn't showcase his talents." ....yeah I see what he means, having to do all those things like shoot and make good passes...those are rough parts of the Hoyas offense Haha. We don't run the "pointless spin move" or the "give to the other team and go" often enough.
|
|
757hoyafan
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,999
|
Post by 757hoyafan on May 27, 2008 15:31:28 GMT -5
whether right or wrong, if baby doc feels as if JTIII did not use him propertly, who are we to tell the guy he is wrong. I hope for his sake, he is making the right decision.
|
|
|
Post by strummer8526 on May 27, 2008 15:45:34 GMT -5
whether right or wrong, if baby doc feels as if JTIII did not use him propertly, who are we to tell the guy he is wrong. I hope for his sake, he is making the right decision. We are people who watched him play and know that his inability to pass, shoot, finish, or play with confidence is his own fault. We are people who would prefer he not blame our favorite team's coach for his own failings.
|
|
757hoyafan
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,999
|
Post by 757hoyafan on May 27, 2008 15:57:29 GMT -5
this is funny. so the staff gets credit for the developement of Hibbs, etc but it's baby doc's fault if he is a scrub? I am not blaming the staff nor baby doc, but it seem petty & childish to con't to bash the kid. I disagree entirely with his quote but it is his decision. whether right or wrong, if baby doc feels as if JTIII did not use him propertly, who are we to tell the guy he is wrong. I hope for his sake, he is making the right decision. We are people who watched him play and know that his inability to pass, shoot, finish, or play with confidence is his own fault. We are people who would prefer he not blame our favorite team's coach for his own failings.
|
|
moe09
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,101
|
Post by moe09 on May 27, 2008 16:21:45 GMT -5
Oh, c'mon 757, let's be real here for a minute. He could've said anything else about his reason to transfer, but "the Georgetown offense didn't showcase my talents"? (Maybe this is just a public excuse for his lackluster offensive performance, but still, really?) Are we joking? Was the system supposed to hide his turnovers and lousy j? The coaching staff can only put you in a position to succeed, but they can't do miracles.
When your jumper doesn't develop there's only one place to look to -- the mirror. Same thing with your handle. Either you work hard and develop it, or you just ain't got it. As for the Georgetown system, if you've got "offensive talent" you're going to showcase it. Just like any other system. You need the same basic talents to play offense in any one system as you do in another, any joe schmoe knows this. To say it was the system is ridiculous.
|
|
chep3
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 2,314
|
Post by chep3 on May 27, 2008 16:29:08 GMT -5
He made his decision and he thinks it's in his best interest, that's fine. But I am strongly opposed to putting JR and the phrase "offensive talents" in the same sentence. No but seriously, he's probably right, he'll get to run around and have more freedom as a guard under Crean's system. Whether or not he ends up developing some offensive game he didn't in two years here, that's on him. But remember, the fact that Dominic James can't shoot never got him less than 15 shots a game.
|
|
vcjack
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 3,875
|
Post by vcjack on May 27, 2008 16:44:42 GMT -5
this is funny. so the staff gets credit for the developement of Hibbs, etc but it's baby doc's fault if he is a scrub? I am not blaming the staff nor baby doc, but it seem petty & childish to con't to bash the kid. I disagree entirely with his quote but it is his decision. We are people who watched him play and know that his inability to pass, shoot, finish, or play with confidence is his own fault. We are people who would prefer he not blame our favorite team's coach for his own failings. I don't necessarily disagree with you but the staff had four years to work with Roy (and he surely wasn't a finished product after his sophmore year). And Roy could have easily brought in his bff Foeva to argue that JTIII was not using him correctly as well, and he had an older and higher rated recruit comming in (Vernon) who many though would displace him from the roster. Rivers didn't give the staff the opportunity to develop him in the same way. Roy stayed and Jeremiah left, such is life
|
|
|
Post by strummer8526 on May 27, 2008 16:51:02 GMT -5
this is funny. so the staff gets credit for the developement of Hibbs, etc but it's baby doc's fault if he is a scrub? I am not blaming the staff nor baby doc, but it seem petty & childish to con't to bash the kid. I disagree entirely with his quote but it is his decision. We are people who watched him play and know that his inability to pass, shoot, finish, or play with confidence is his own fault. We are people who would prefer he not blame our favorite team's coach for his own failings. Hey, I'm not being childish. Anyway, Jeremiah started it!
|
|
prhoya
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 23,259
|
Post by prhoya on May 27, 2008 16:57:48 GMT -5
Hoyas' offense didn't showcase his talents? If that is what he said (I didn't see a direct quote), then he's EDITED!
Is that why he airballed so many shots and gave away so many passes? Is that why he averaged .297% from 3s, 54% from FT, .32% from FG and 1.00 A/T? Don't forget he averaged 18 mpg while playing in 34 games. He had more than his chance to "show his case".
It's great to blame everyone else for his failures. Now, I'm so glad EDITED is gone.
Please lay off the gratuitous insults. You can make your basketball case and be civil at the same time.
|
|
SFHoya99
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 17,736
|
Post by SFHoya99 on May 27, 2008 18:23:48 GMT -5
If Jeremiah wants to say that the staff didn't help him develop a good enough outside shot to contribute, I wouldn't argue too much. Form and technique are up to the coaching staff; repetition and practice are up to the player. Who knows where it broke down? Or if it did at all? To my eye, it seemed he was improving -- it just takes time.
But to say the "system" didn't showcase his talents is laughable. Why should the "system?" He couldn't make the shots he got -- changing an offense to get him more shots seems stupid to me.
|
|
Buckets
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,656
|
Post by Buckets on May 27, 2008 18:59:16 GMT -5
If Jeremiah wants to say that the staff didn't help him develop a good enough outside shot to contribute, I wouldn't argue too much. Form and technique are up to the coaching staff; repetition and practice are up to the player. Who knows where it broke down? Or if it did at all? To my eye, it seemed he was improving -- it just takes time. But to say the "system" didn't showcase his talents is laughable. Why should the "system?" He couldn't make the shots he got -- changing an offense to get him more shots seems stupid to me. I don't think he was implying that the system should change, that's why he left. Also, I'm pretty sure "not showcasing talents" is really just a euphemism for "exposing flaws," so I don't get what everyone is so upset about. Different systems require different skill sets, showcase certain talents, and hide certain flaws. Different guys are going to thrive and suffer as a result of this. I don't really keep track of who's saying what, but the general consensus of this thread is that Jeremiah is ridiculous for calling his skill set and Georgetown's system a mismatch, while the threads on Dashonte Riley consistently criticize his AAU team's system for keeping him down. There's a certain type of player that fits into Georgetown's system, Jeremiah Rivers did not fit the profile. I disagree with the outrage.
|
|
DanMcQ
Moderator
Posts: 30,480
|
Post by DanMcQ on May 27, 2008 19:17:31 GMT -5
Indianapolis StarMOD NOTE: Keep the posts in line or they'll be edited / deleted. The quote above is hardly a cause for the venom some of you feel the need to spew here.
|
|
|
Post by jerseyhoya34 on May 27, 2008 19:42:18 GMT -5
Indianapolis StarMOD NOTE: Keep the posts in line or they'll be edited / deleted. The quote above is hardly a cause for the venom some of you feel the need to spew here. I have defended Rivers at other times, but I think his quote here is at least mildly inappropriate. Sure, he can say what he wants, but it just strikes me as impolite to throw this one in on a day when he announces his school choice (and after GU gave him the opportunity to get a degree and learn how to shoot). The irony of the whole situation is that Crean will do none of these things for him. If technique is your problem, throw in some tape of Dominic James, emulate it (if possible), and tell me what happens to your shooting percentage. The shooters at Marquette in recent years - Novak and Fitzgerald - were shooters before The Creepy One got in their ears.
|
|
SFHoya99
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 17,736
|
Post by SFHoya99 on May 27, 2008 19:43:01 GMT -5
freemoney,
It's not outrage. It's just a basic acknowledgement that there isn't a system in the world where a guard who can't shoot is an effective offensive player.
Rivers may score more going up and down the floor because he might get a couple more easy buckets. But he won't be a better player.
Now, like I said, if he feels that Crean and company will help him develop better, more power to him. But it isn't like Crean's system is going to make him an effective offensive player.
|
|
chep3
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 2,314
|
Post by chep3 on May 27, 2008 20:15:08 GMT -5
The semi-surprising thing to me in all of this is the reaction to JR's transfer. He was our 3rd guard for 2 years and played a good amount in both of those seasons. Vern, on the other hand, barely played for 2 years, and said nothing afterwards that could be construed as dogging the school. Yet the vitriol was much stronger for Vern than it was for JR. I think that's just a sign that most on this board aren't that broken up about JR transferring.
It was a wrong fit for player and system. A turnover prone, poor shooting guard is not a good fit for offense, no matter how great a defensive player he is. I have no issue with turning his minutes over to Clark; I don't expect him to contribute less than JR, and there's a strong chance he's better. JR is going to go somewher, get more minutes and more shots, but still have the same flaws. I mean, if you can't shoot while wide open in the BE, you're not going to be able to while wide open in the B10.
|
|
hoyarooter
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 10,197
|
Post by hoyarooter on May 27, 2008 20:23:49 GMT -5
The semi-surprising thing to me in all of this is the reaction to JR's transfer. He was our 3rd guard for 2 years and played a good amount in both of those seasons. Vern, on the other hand, barely played for 2 years, and said nothing afterwards that could be construed as dogging the school. Yet the vitriol was much stronger for Vern than it was for JR. I think that's just a sign that most on this board aren't that broken up about JR transferring. It was a wrong fit for player and system. A turnover prone, poor shooting guard is not a good fit for offense, no matter how great a defensive player he is. I have no issue with turning his minutes over to Clark; I don't expect him to contribute less than JR, and there's a strong chance he's better. JR is going to go somewher, get more minutes and more shots, but still have the same flaws. I mean, if you can't shoot while wide open in the BE, you're not going to be able to while wide open in the B10. I think the main reason why many people are more upset about Macklin's transfer is that Macklin could have played major minutes and been a starter next year if his skill set had developed appropriately, while Rivers might actually have seen his minutes diminish with the arrival of Clark and the full time return of a healty Wright. That doesn't make the criticism or level of vitriol more valid, but I think it is a reasonable explanation.
|
|
Massholya
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,939
|
Post by Massholya on May 27, 2008 21:27:12 GMT -5
If JR's intent was not to dog his old school he certainly could have chosen his phrasing more carefully - e.g. "I thought I would get a better opportunity to develop my game elsewhere". So, I don't necessarily think we need to cut him any slack for what he said. The fact of the matter is that he had AMPLE opportunity to "showcase" his offensive talents. I mean the kid had TONS of wide open offensive looks provided to him by this system. Unfortunately, he couldn't hit the shots. Because of that, he got even more open offensive looks as defenses continually sagged way off him. He still couldn't hit the shots. To blame that on the system is bush league and a total cop out. In my opinion JR is entitled to any vitriol he inspires with his cheap little parting shot at a program that gave him more opportunity than he probably deserved. Going quietly would have been a far classier thing to do.
|
|
Buckets
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,656
|
Post by Buckets on May 27, 2008 21:29:44 GMT -5
freemoney, It's not outrage. It's just a basic acknowledgement that there isn't a system in the world where a guard who can't shoot is an effective offensive player. Rivers may score more going up and down the floor because he might get a couple more easy buckets. But he won't be a better player. Now, like I said, if he feels that Crean and company will help him develop better, more power to him. But it isn't like Crean's system is going to make him an effective offensive player. Now, not to compare Drake to Marquette or Jeremiah Rivers to any other players, but Adam Emmenecker is at least anecdotal evidence that guards who can't shoot to save their lives can be at least moderately successful in the right situation. And without getting into an argument over semantics, I would say that the fact that we don't fast break is a product of the "system." Ignoring any development argument, and without having seen him on the break too much, I'm going to say it's a safe bet he's going to do a lot better running up and down than playing offense primarily in the halfcourt.
|
|
Massholya
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,939
|
Post by Massholya on May 27, 2008 21:34:28 GMT -5
freemoney, It's not outrage. It's just a basic acknowledgement that there isn't a system in the world where a guard who can't shoot is an effective offensive player. Rivers may score more going up and down the floor because he might get a couple more easy buckets. But he won't be a better player. Now, like I said, if he feels that Crean and company will help him develop better, more power to him. But it isn't like Crean's system is going to make him an effective offensive player. Now, not to compare Drake to Marquette or Jeremiah Rivers to any other players, but Adam Emmenecker is at least anecdotal evidence that guards who can't shoot to save their lives can be at least moderately successful in the right situation. And without getting into an argument over semantics, I would say that the fact that we don't fast break is a product of the "system." Ignoring any development argument, and without having seen him on the break too much, I'm going to say it's a safe bet he's going to do a lot better running up and down than playing offense primarily in the halfcourt. JR was bad on the fast break. Incapable of dribbling at speed and looking up court at the same time. Often caught from behind and/or lost control of his own dribble. Always a scary sight for me watching him try to run the break. Never mind the many missed layups.
|
|
SFHoya99
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 17,736
|
Post by SFHoya99 on May 27, 2008 22:06:04 GMT -5
freemoney, It's not outrage. It's just a basic acknowledgement that there isn't a system in the world where a guard who can't shoot is an effective offensive player. Rivers may score more going up and down the floor because he might get a couple more easy buckets. But he won't be a better player. Now, like I said, if he feels that Crean and company will help him develop better, more power to him. But it isn't like Crean's system is going to make him an effective offensive player. Adam Emmenecker -- the guy who shot 83% from the FT throw line? That's your example of a guy who can't shoot. Yes, he doesn't make (or take) threes. But he shot 47% from 2 and 83% from the line. Not exactly a guy with Jeremiah's shot. Rivers shot 33% from 2 and 56% from the line. I don't want to bash the kid -- I actually the extra year of eligibility is a really big deal for him b/c he can be a really good player with an improved shot. But Adam Emmenecker is not a bad shooter. He just doesn't have three point range. Now, not to compare Drake to Marquette or Jeremiah Rivers to any other players, but Adam Emmenecker is at least anecdotal evidence that guards who can't shoot to save their lives can be at least moderately successful in the right situation. And without getting into an argument over semantics, I would say that the fact that we don't fast break is a product of the "system." Ignoring any development argument, and without having seen him on the break too much, I'm going to say it's a safe bet he's going to do a lot better running up and down than playing offense primarily in the halfcourt.
|
|