MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Apr 30, 2006 18:06:18 GMT -5
For those of us not dumb enough to have watched the NFL Draft Miniseries this weekend.
As a NBA fan even I can't defend the travesty of the officiating that allowed the Lakers to steal game four from the Suns today. Maybe its just because I despise that tool Kobe Bryant, but seeing the refs give the Lakers virtually every opportunity ticked me off.
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RDF
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Post by RDF on Apr 30, 2006 19:34:58 GMT -5
I completely DISAGREE. Phoenix lost the game when they had an 8 pt lead with 4 and half left and decided to keep firing open 3's and take stupid shots. I enjoy Phoenix's uptempo style of play--but it's NEVER going to win a title if you can't play some defense too. They give up easy hoops and have one dimensional players. And as we all know--it's a heck of a lot easier to slow a team relying on speed/uptempo in basketball then it is to get them uptempo.
The conspiracy stuff is GARBAGE. The thing is the "mythical" everyone has a chance bullcrap is nonexistent in pro sports. If you aren't as good, you lose--simple as that. Teams have chances to win games and it's up to them to get it done. Nash was not fouled before end of regulation--he lost the ball and if anything Bryant was fouled on his make--and could've ended it then.
Nash should've passed the ball to an open teammate--and he did NOT call timeout--was he trapped hard? Yeah. Could've been a foul but he also had 3 open guys to his right and ahead of him and key is to move ball--Lakers had no timeouts and worst case scenario is Suns miss both and Lakers have to drive full length of court in 6 seconds instead of winning tip and going half the court to get shot off.
Fact is NBA gets a bad rap because many fans don't watch a full game--and then whine about how it ends--when Bryant had 3 fouls in First Half, did Suns extend lead? Why is Nash sitting being "mummified" in Playoffs-get your butt out there and play 48 minutes when you are facing a pivotal game. For all of those who hate someone like Iverson for going off on coaches for taking him out--I'll take that any day then someone who plays Playoffs as if they are regular season. Pat Riley used to sit Patrick Ewing when Jordan would rest in Bulls-Knicks heyday and it's stupid. You need to build on your advantage when the other team is weak--not match "rest". This game was lost in First Half and with Suns failure to play smart ball up 8 with possession, not by any referee's call/non call.
When you don't have a team in the Playoffs, it's easier to see the game and enjoy it without thinking things are rigged--when you watch replays of games, you see that chances are there to win despite bad/questionable calls and let's face it--you have to be mentally tough enough to assume things won't be easy. There will be tough calls, bad calls, etc.. but the BEST team wins these Series because you can't hide over 7 game series.
Fact is Nash is a great player--but nowhere near the caliber of an MVP--that is comical and wrong. MVP to me is like Hall of Fame SHOULD BE--you have to be the BEST of the BEST--and capable of carrying your team. Nash can't do that--his entire game is dependent on others and while he's great--he's not at that level.
Shawn Marion is backing up his claim to be the most overrated Player in the league--this guy is GARBAGE come Playoff time. Had his best game today and thought he was still nowhere near the level a player of his press clippings/hype should produce. If he plays as he's shown in Playoffs--especially last two years, they are going home. If he takes his game up to level he's supposedly at--they can still win this series.
One last thing I have noticed on Phoenix too--Mike D'Antoni cries/whines over EVERYTHING. His team could kill an opposing player with a weapon and he'd argue the call. Some say it's fiery--I call it wasted energy/time. Coach the team and complain when necessary--if you do this all of the time as he does, then what point are you making??
We all know Phoenix will get some calls early--especially Steve Nash--but watch how Jackson and Lakers react--his teams always keep their cool early and realize it's a 48 minute game--and they can get back into it because Phoenix will take silly shots and play no defense. if they lose--officials won't get blamed--Bryant was hammered in Game One and didn't get a call--he complained but that was ignored and not brought up by Jackson-then they went out and took it to Phoenix. Suns need to quit whining and start playing otherwise, they are gone in 5.
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nychoya3
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Post by nychoya3 on Apr 30, 2006 19:58:01 GMT -5
RDF is totally right. First of all, I thought the officiating was fine. In OT, Nash dribbled into the corner and picked up his handle...WTF? Why? Whatever happened after that, he has no right to complain. They could have called a foul, but you can say that many times - the fact is that a stupid play by Nash gave the Lakers their shot. the conspiracy thing is kind of crazy - NBA refs often suck, but they aren't involved in a conspiracy. Kobe AKA Black Mamba is incredible. I think we all know he's a weirdo and a tool, but I think we also that he's the clutchest player around. As RDF said, the Nash for MVP crowd should be ashamed by watching what Lebron and Kobe are doing. Nash is great - an awesome player and fun to watch. But Kobe is one of the greatest ever and he's just entering his prime and Lebron may end up even better than him (which just defies belief). Throw in Dirk and Wade and any one of those guys would be FAR more deserving of the MVP award. They can put their team on their backs in a way that Nash just can't. If he weren't a white, floppy haired, hobbit-y looking fellow, he's Steve Nash - All Star not Steve Nash - MVP. Finally, Mike Sweetney is the Anti-Shaq Weapon. Shaq can't move him in the paint, which is unreal. And here's why: chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/media/photo/2006-04/23200775.jpgSweet jesus. Mike Sweetney may pull Kirk Hinrich into his orbit before the series is through. That said, Sweets is playing very well. His offensive touch isn't as sharp as usual, but he's rebounding and looking active on both ends. He's starting and Skiles seems to have developed some confidence in him. Chandler got hurt (looked pretty bad), so they'll need to right the big guy all the more. I've said all year that any other coach would have played Mike a lot more this year, but it could be for the best in the long haul if Skiles really forces him to get into the best shape he can. I still think there's a starting NBA power forward in there - and a good one at that. Seriously though, what is 'Zo thinking in that picture? Something along the lines of "Who let a giant rhinocerous loose on the court? Oh, hi there Mike."
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Apr 30, 2006 20:38:53 GMT -5
Good, good, good. NBA talk.
Where do I start?
I'm not complaining about a conspiracy. I don't believe in such stuff. But I thought today was a badly officiated game in which all the major calls went in favor of the HOME team down the stretch. That's garbage. Be consistent throughout the whole game for once is all I ask. I also ask that the refs not allow themselves to be influenced by home crowds in the last few minutes. Nash got hacked at the end. If Someone had reached in on Kobe like that its a foul.
Speaking of Kobe lets stop drinking the kool-aid. All I keep hearing is that he is being selfless and allowing his teammates to shine in the spotlight. How about he has been playing like crap the previous three games (in terms of shooting percentage) and knows he couldn't justify jacking up 35 plus shots per? His teammates have carried him and it only proves that if he had allowed this to happen for the last regular seasons maybe the Lakers would not have missed the playoffs last season and maybe this season they could have been a much higher seed. Just a thought. Kobe as MVP? Please. Anyone who has games in which he scores 50 points and dishes out only one assist doesn't deserve that. Its amazing how Kobe's scoring 80 points turned him into a MVP candidate overnight. Even when AI was a shooting guard in Larry Brown's offense he would average more assist than Kobe...and Kobe was playing with Shaq!
Last season Iverson was in the top five in points, assists and steals and he carried his Sixers to the playoffs. But did AI get nearly as much consideration for MVP as Kobe did? Hell, no. That same season in the post season AI averaged 35 points on 50% shooting and 10 assists against the Detroit Pistons. The same Detroit Pistons who made Tim Duncan look like Ruben Boumtje Boumtje during the NBA Finals. The Pistons had no answer for him and Iverson’s totals were the individual high for both points average and assists average in last year’s playoffs. If Kobe had put up those numbers the Dan Patricks’ of the world would have wet their paints, even if the Lakers got swept. So I have no sympathy for that MJ-imitator, alleged rapist, team-breaker, arrogant phony named Kobe. That’s not taking away from his talent but just calling him out. He realized how everyone was giving LeBron praise for being an all around player and now he has decided its best to come across like that to get more of the press on his side. He made a great shot. That’s as far as I’ll go in praise.
Don’t hate on Nash. The guy is doing his job. He’s having at least as good a series as Kobe but unfortunately most of his boys aren’t giving him help. Nash deserved last year’s MVP and was easily one of the three most qualified for MVP this season (along with Dirk and LeBron). I have no idea why he picked up the ball like he did towards the end but that doesn’t diminish his brilliance.
Wade as MVP? I hate to say but Wade is getting his butt kicked right now. I love Wade but its interesting so many people in the media favor him over Iverson. Ask yourself…could any of these Bulls shut Iverson down like they are doing to Wade? Hell, no.
Shawn Marion may not be having the best of post seasons (again). But who should I respect more? Marion who produces during the season by working his butt off against much bigger foes? Or Lamar Odom who didn’t get his wakeup call until a week ago? That’s another reason to hate the Fakers.
No one goes on message boards defending the NBA more than me. I even wrote online articles about the NBA getting treated shabbily by the press. But I still think the last ten minutes of the Lakers’ game were a travesty..
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RDF
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Post by RDF on Apr 30, 2006 23:02:05 GMT -5
MCI, you can love the NBA all you want--but the last 10 minutes of this game were Phoenix LOSING--they lost the game--not any official. As for Bryant getting the "call"--he didn't--watch Game 1 when he gets hit in the face to the point he still has a welt on his head and that didn't get called. He got called for fouls in 1st Half that most stars don't get called for too. It was more then objective officiating and I think you've let your love of a style of play effect what you see during this series. The team who is playing better basketball is winning. Bryant made the 2 of the biggest shots in the game--Parker's 3 was biggest to cut it to 2 pts, considering they were down 5 with 14 seconds left.
Bryant is a great player. I don't care about him off the court, he is a guy who is a great player and always has been. I think he gets favorable treatment from the Media but he's earned his stripes on the court with me. To say he didn't start playing team basketball until he saw Lebron doing it is petty. The guy is egomaniacal--but all great talents in sports are--some just hide it better then others.
Steve Nash took his game to Phoenix from Dallas--and same result happened then--losing to Spurs. He didn't deserve the MVP this year and you can't be serious if you don't include Bryant in consideration--I can see you not thinking he deserves it--but he should be considered for it. Nash is a great player--but he's NOT an MVP--he is one dimensional and if you put him on Philly, you think they win more games then what Allen Iverson got out of that load of dung?? You put Iverson on Phoenix and don't think they win as much as Nash led Suns to? In that style of play with athletic people and shooters around him?? He's NEVER had the chance in NBA to do what Nash has--and last year was as close as he came under Jim O'Brien and you provided the numbers for us--which were undervalued by media. He had a great statistical year this year too--shooting 45% from field and doing what only one other player has ever done--but it got little reception because it was on a bad team--which is understandable.
I like good basketball--Phoenix is fun to watch but is it good basketball? They had game won--8 pt lead and ball, get some good shots--not "dagger 3's" they kept hoisting.
Lamar Odom isn't a favorite of mine--but he's at least produced in Playoffs--Marion doesn't do a damn thing--he was worthless last year, has been this year too, and the guy is seen as "Special" by so many. He and Jermaine O'Neal are two of the most overblown "Stars" in the league.
Shaq is done--Heat are not far behind. Wade is a great player, but I agree with MCI on his points. Only thing is--no team with Antione Walker, Jason Williams, and Gary Payton is going to win--they are CANCERS.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on May 1, 2006 11:49:51 GMT -5
I don't think there is a conspiracy anywhere, but the officiating has been garbage in almost every series so far this season. Which is too bad because the basketball has been more interesting than most years.
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miamihoya
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Post by miamihoya on May 1, 2006 13:41:27 GMT -5
Right on RDF...officiating didnt cost the Suns the game..the Suns cost the Suns the game. Nash, who supposedly is the 'most valuable player' in the league screwed up, not once, but twice. Say what you want about him being fouled or calling the time-out, but reality is he should have not put himself in that situation by walking right into the half-court trap. Replay shows that when someone finally called for the timeout, walton already held partial-possesion of the ball, so the ref did the right thing in calling for a jumpball. From there Bryant went on to show why he is hands down the most valuable and talented player in the NBA, as he has all series long. Give credit to Phil Jackson for having the patience to allow this team to go through growing pains, because he is finally seeing the payoff. This is by far been the most fun team to watch in the playoffs..who would of thought?
Now if you want to see a travesty as far as officiating, look at what the refs have done to Shaq. They are calling the big man so tight that he might as well sit on the bench, as he has done. Its absolutley ridiculous. That being said, i'm not defending the heat. They look as dysfunctional as can get. Two suspensions and in-game fighting between wade and payton just proves that the chemistry from last year isnt there. I never agreed with Riley's offseason shake-up of the roster, and the playoffs have shown why. I'm still confident that the team can get past the bulls, but from there, nothing is guaranteed. I just have a hard time seeing this team beating Detroit, or even the Nets and Pacers for that matter. The playoffs have just been the culmination of a long and problem filled season. I think Stan Van Gundy might have made the right choice in jumping ship and letting Pat take responsibility for this debacle. I'm just happy i have the lakers to fall back on, as the heat continue to frustrate the hell out of me.
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RDF
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Post by RDF on May 1, 2006 13:55:35 GMT -5
Right on RDF...officiating didnt cost the Suns the game..the Suns cost the Suns the game. Nash, who supposedly is the 'most valuable player' in the league screwed up, not once, but twice. Say what you want about him being fouled or calling the time-out, but reality is he should have not put himself in that situation by walking right into the half-court trap. Replay shows that when someone finally called for the timeout, walton already held partial-possesion of the ball, so the ref did the right thing in calling for a jumpball. From there Bryant went on to show why he is hands down the most valuable and talented player in the NBA, as he has all series long. Give credit to Phil Jackson for having the patience to allow this team to go through growing pains, because he is finally seeing the payoff. This is by far been the most fun team to watch in the playoffs..who would of thought? Now if you want to see a travesty as far as officiating, look at what the refs have done to Shaq. They are calling the big man so tight that he might as well sit on the bench, as he has done. Its absolutley ridiculous. That being said, i'm not defending the heat. They look as dysfunctional as can get. Two suspensions and in-game fighting between wade and payton just proves that the chemistry from last year isnt there. I never agreed with Riley's offseason shake-up of the roster, and the playoffs have shown why. I'm still confident that the team can get past the bulls, but from there, nothing is guaranteed. I just have a hard time seeing this team beating Detroit, or even the Nets and Pacers for that matter. The playoffs have just been the culmination of a long and problem filled season. I think Stan Van Gundy might have made the right choice in jumping ship and letting Pat take responsibility for this debacle. I'm just happy i have the lakers to fall back on, as the heat continue to frustrate the hell out of me. Shaq gets punished for being big--but he's also not putting in the effort. As HoyaRooter predicted when this trade happened--he'd give it is best effort LAST YEAR--and he did. This year's he's been coasting. Shaq is least of problems though--and you made a great point on Heat's offseason--if Wade doesn't get injured last year, I think they beat Detroit and go to Finals. So Riley gets rid of the type of guys who fit in well with the team, and replaces them with one dimensional Editeds who can't function unless they are focal points--Gary Payton is still one of the most overrated players in the history of this game--I just don't see his value to a team, but others disagree. Fine by me, but what purpose did his argument with Wade serve yesterday? It is just the wrong time/place to get into that--Playoffs are about mental toughness as much as anything and Heat have the mindset of Jason Williams heading to Taco Bell with Randy Moss to splurge after getting the munchies doing some recreational "smoking". BTW---is it just me or was Milwaukee putting 124 on Detroit the most surprising outcome--not that they won, but how bad Pistons defense was? If Flip and company ignore that end of the floor, Detroit is beatable--they aren't good enough on offense to let their defense slip. Also---has their EVER been a team that blows an advantage in Series like the Pacers?? They don't just lose, they get torched and it's usually in Indianapolis. WTH is with that? Also have to admit being "shocked" that Jammal Tinsley is injured--that NEVER happens. -Is he ever healthy? Of course it is difficult to be 50 years old as he was in his mid 30's in college.
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VelvetElvis
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Post by VelvetElvis on May 1, 2006 13:58:53 GMT -5
Riley must have been real proud of the job that he did this offseason when Wade and Payton had to be seperated. The owner of the heat should make Riles live in a one room apartment with Williams, employee #8 and the silk glove for the entire offseason as punishment!
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nychoya3
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Post by nychoya3 on May 1, 2006 14:26:54 GMT -5
Awww...boo hoo. Poor Shaq. The truth of the matter is that Mike Sweetney owns Shaquille O'Neal. Mike should have to pay taxes on Shaq, because he is now Property of Mike Sweetney. Instead of whining to the refs, Shaq should just admit that he's Michael Sweetney's bitch. In all seriousness though, I have no idea how to referee Shaq, and no ref in the league does either. He's so much bigger than anyone else that there's really no good solution. You can call a foul every play or just try to strike a balance and not totally destroy the flow of the game. I think the Bulls have been very successful in quickly doubling down on Shaq, while Sweetney keeps him from establishing position within, say, five feet of the hoop where he just can dunk it on you. The Heat's shooters aren't playing very well, and Wade is really grinding right now. I agree that Miami will ultimately pull it out, but the Bulls are a good young team that will challenge for titles in the near future. Everyone on the squad plays defense (except Ben Gordon, anyway), and their core is very young. Hopefully Sweets is a part of it going forward.
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miamihoya
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Post by miamihoya on May 1, 2006 15:50:39 GMT -5
In all seriousness though, I have no idea how to referee Shaq, and no ref in the league does either. He's so much bigger than anyone else that there's really no good solution. You can call a foul every play or just try to strike a balance and not totally destroy the flow of the game. If the refs had taken the latter approach, then it wouldnt be so bad. Unfortunatley they are just calling a foul on every play destroying not only the flow of the game, but the essence of the Heat. Again, no doubt that the shooters have been bad, D.Wade included. Yet this is in part because they have to change their approach with Shaq on the bench and Zo hurt (not to mention Haslem and Posey suspensions, although those were well deserved). I give credit that the bulls have taken advantage of the way the refs are calling shaq and used it to their advantage, but to say Shaq is Sweetney's bitch is too far. I realize he is a former hoya, but he has turned into an overweight NBA player who hasnt lived up to expectations.
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nychoya3
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Post by nychoya3 on May 1, 2006 17:23:35 GMT -5
Yeah, but in the same game I saw Shaq turn into Chandler, elbow him in the jaw, and send him flying to the floor, and Chandler got a foul called on him. What do you do there? Shaq uses his strength to throw guys around - I don't blame him, but it makes it tough on the refs. It's been a problem for years.
I think the problem for the Heat has been less Shaq and foul trouble than their horrible shooting and Wade's highly mortal play. Check out the 82games site, and you see that the Heat have actually been better without Shaq on the floor this series, believe it or not. The big difference has been that Wade has played like just a good player, as opposed to the otherworldly player he has been most of the season.
Gee, so Shaq isn't Sweetney's bitch? Thanks for clarifying. But, if you've watched the series, he has done a very nice job keeping Shaq from getting position. We all know he needs to condition better, but he's already a pretty useful player, and I think under-utilized by the Bulls. To be more, he'll need to lose 20 pounds or so. Let's see if he does - Skiles is known for whipping guys into shape.
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on May 1, 2006 23:53:27 GMT -5
RDF, dismissing Nash because he has not won against the Spurs regardless of his team is about as silly as mocking Ewing for never being able to get past Jordan's Bulls. Only a select few have won it all. Meanwhile plenty of great players, Hall of Fame players, walk away without a championship ring. And to me it doesn't diminish them at all. Something tells me that if Nash had played alongside a Shaq in his prime he would have gotten past the Spurs and won his share of rings (and yes we can say the same about AI). If Kobe had not been paired with Shaq then I'm almost certain he would have been ringless.
Spare me the stuff about Kobe getting less star tretament than most NBA stars. That's just crazy. Like his idol MJ, Kobe doesn't foul out of games. When it was announced he had five fouls late in the game you had to know he would never see his sixth eve if the game continued over into 20 overtimes. But when I heard that Marion had five fouls I knew he was done even though he is less aggressive on the defensive end than Kobe. Lets get real.
No, I don't have to take Kobe seriously as a MVP candidate. And most people weren't either until his 80 point game. After that the media did a 180 and suddenly felt Kobe was worthy. How? The Lakers have more talent perhaps than the Cavaliers and yet the Lakers were a barely above average team this season. No way would I put Kobe over LeBron. And not over Dirk either. Or Elton Brand. Or Nash. Lets go over it like this. Nash lost Stoudemire and Johnson and his team has been riddled with injuries all season long. And yet Phoenix was dominant. And yet Phoenix had a great record against the very top teams this past season. Nash worked with all of these new guys in the starting lineup and the Suns barely missed a beat. Now a lot of credit goes to D'Antoni without a doubt. His system is brilliant and I wish AI had a coach with such vision. But Nash deserves a lot of that credit. Meanwhile the Lakers brought back essentially the same squad from the previous season. The main difference? The return of Phil Jackson. Man, Kobe could not make Tim Thomas look all world as Nash has. And in D'Antoni's system alongside Nash I'm sure Kwame Brown would have put up near All Sttar consideration numbers. We're talking about the most fundamentally sound point guard in the league.
How many double-doubles did Kobe put up this season? A so-called selfish guy like AI is putting up 40 points-10 assists games left and right while Kobe is putting up 45 points-2 assists contest. Kobe is 6'7 and yet his shooting percentage is just barely above Iverson's even though Kobe has the advantage of being tall enough to go inside and finish more easily (dunks and layups) and shoot over smaller defenders. Where are his double figures in rebounds games? I saw none of that this season. If Kobe had carried his Lakers to the top this season like Dirk did with Dallas I would give him more respect. If he was truly Jordan like and putting up his numbers while shooting over 50% and averaging at least near six assists then you would have an argument. But right now he is merely on my First Team at best Second Team NBA at worst. But he isn't my MVP because he is not nearly as efficient as the other players I mentioned. Heck, I may put Billups above Kobe in my MVP voting.
By the way as far as I'm concerned Nash has outplayed Kobe in this series. Numbers are better in terms of shooting percentages and assists. He hasn't dropped off unlike Kobe. The problem is though that not enough of Nash's teammates are rising to the challenge as Kobe's sidekicks are. As someone who has followed AI's career like I know you have you are onbiously very much familiar with teammates of a superstar coming up small in the playoffs.
Its funny you're dogging D'Antoni for his complaining during games. First of all I don't think he does it nearly as much as you're suggesting. But even if he were I'd rather he keep his complaints limited to game time rather than play the Phil Jackson routine of whining like a b***c to the media between games AFTER defeats. There is nothing more pathetic than that.
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RDF
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Post by RDF on May 2, 2006 1:36:57 GMT -5
MCI, you just hate Bryant so much you are blind. The guy is a GREAT player--he produces when SUPERSTAR/MVP caliber players are meant to produce--Steve Nash has done what in this series to warrant "outplaying" Bryant? Turn the ball over in the most critical game of their season? And not just once, but twice? He is a great player--and makes teammates better--but he can't elevate his game to another level--Bryant can--and HAS--and at the time when MVP caliber players do this--his team has won down the stretch, they have won with him leading their team, and he came up with 2 of the 3 biggest plays in a game that was there for taking against the so called MVP. He's worthy of consideration based on the last Month alone. I'm not saying I'd pick him--but to ignore him because you don't like him is silly.
The fact Phoenix wins during the regular season doesn't impress me. Dallas won with him during regular season and we all knew they had ZERO chance of doing anything major. That's how I feel about Phoenix. They pose no serious threat to win the Championship with that style of play. They are very Seattle like of the Karl era or Cleveland Cavs of early '90's. Win a bunch of games, are no threat to win anything but look good and like a challenger during regular season. Nash is reliant on those teammates to produce and needs them to win. People like Bryant and Iverson can carry a team during a game and will them to win--that is the difference I see in an MVP and someone who is a level below. If you don't think Bryant can will a victory, we can agree to disagree. Very few can, but he is one of the players who can.
Elton Brand for MVP? NO FREAKING WAY. Solid Pro and produces to help a team, but he's not worthy of that talk. He'll get his chance though--with another round ahead of him but I just don't see him capable of that type of play. Sam Cassell is more responsible for that team winning then anyone.
Again--you like the Suns--I don't. I like their offensive style as entertainment--if I wanted to win, I'd never allow that style of play unless guys busted their butts on defense. As for D'Antoni, he is a crybaby. To say he is not--is just pathetic and shows you are in love with that team so much you don't see basic whining and moaning. Jackson is a clown after games and has been in past but usually when he feels threatened--by an opponent. If he sees a team he knows he'll beat, he doesn't say much at all. And during a game he doesn't say much at all. Watch both teams--and without pom poms in hand--and you'll see this more--maybe if Phoenix wins and plays Clippers you'll notice it more. Nash could've picked up his dribble at FT line, walked to midcourt and then walked out of bounds and D'Antoni would've argued the call for his team.
As for Bryant not fouling out--he didn't do anything to warrant a foul. You can't make that statement unless there was a play where he committed a foul that wasn't called. I pointed out a FACT--he's still got a welt on his head from a non-call in Game One and that dispelled your conspiracy theory and fact that he gets "Every call". He doesn't. Most guys don't get every call. I think Nash passes on about 90% of his "Shot attempts" but he gets FT's--no big deal--when they show replay the refs are usually right and I was wrong. It's just easier when I have no rooting interest to see things as they are instead of how I want them to be. Fact is to this point, the Lakers have been the better team, they've outplayed, and outcoached Phoenix and yet I still see Phoenix capable of winning this Series if they just step their play up and quit whining and waiting to get bailed out.
I'm not as impressed with Nash because I see his teams get pummeled in Playoffs. I've seen it time and time again. MVP players don't let that happen-they go out with all they have--heck Iverson had Philly a FT away from sending Detroit Series back 2-2 last year--if Salmons makes both FT's and that Philly team had no business on the court with Detroit. That is what MVP caliber players do--he willed his team to Finals in '01.
Steve Nash would not have won a title with Shaq. Iverson would've. Now that's something we'll never know but the style of players you talk about points to a guy reliant on others to score--O'Neal can't be counted on late because he'll get fouled--Nash can be guarded--so he would've gotten the shots for Lakers late? Bryant was the key to that team late--and is the player who will win another championship in his career--not O'Neal. Iverson would've flourished with O'Neal because you couldn't double him and he'd destroy people with drives to hoop and set Shaq up for easy dunks or give people like Horry wide open looks. You can't check him man up. You can guard Nash--it's been proven and you can obliterate him on other end--as you can AI. Bryant is a solid defensive player--a bit overrated but light years ahead of Iverson and Nash.
Last time I'll say this--but MCI, get the Suns blinders off and watch the games--you are way too involved due to hating Bryant and Lakers to see the facts/obvious reasons why Lakers are leading and why Phoenix is losing. Nash has NOT outplayed Bryant at all--and all you need to see is the 3-1 number in this series. That's what counts. Bryant just won the game that was up for grabs and Nash lost it for his team. That alone gives him edge in this series-now plenty of ball left but that statement was way out there and just wrong.
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miamihoya
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
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Post by miamihoya on May 2, 2006 10:05:11 GMT -5
Amen RDF...it never ceazes to amaze me how much people are capable of hating Kobe's game, without an inch of evidence to back them up. If you don't like him as a person, that I can understood (unfair as it may be). Yet you cannot take away the fact that he is clearly the most talented basketball player in the NBA. Hate on his lack of assists all you want, but remind me again when was the last time someone put up 81 pts in a game? Even when Walt did it, the opposing team was essentially letting him get to the basket and everyone wanted to see him do it. Kobe did it in a tough, close game where every shot mattered. As far as being "most valuable", you really think the Lakers would be that good without Kobe? Take him off that team, and they would be as bad as the Knicks. Kobe is the heart and soul of that team. Nash has played incredibly the last two years, no doubt. Yet he didnt deserve the mvp last season (shaq did) and he didnt deserve it this season (kobe, dirk, lebron, and wade to name a few). Its been said before, but merits repeating. Jason Kidd put up the same numbers of nash a few seasons back with a comparable team. He never got all this mvp talk. People are just fascinated with Nash being a canadian white boy with long hair who can play. For someone so valuable, he sure found a way to hand the game to the lakers not once but twice in the same game.
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the_way
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
The Illest
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Post by the_way on May 2, 2006 10:19:29 GMT -5
I'll just add my 2 cents:
I think sometimes its better to actually watch games instead of rounding off stat after stat after stat. Stats are misleading, game-film isn't.
Kobe had an MVP season. More than Steve Nash. Steve Nash is great, but is one dimensional. Mark Cuban said it best. He wasn't going to pay that much money long term for a guy (Steve Nash) who is in his 30's, no defense, and they weren't going any further in the playoffs with him. Now who has the better chance of winning title now? Dallas or Phoenix? Nash is solid guy. I like him. He is a gamer. But to say he was the MVP this year and hate on Kobe is just wrong. I know, wins count more in this league. Yeah Lebron's team had 50 wins, but it was in the Eastern Conference. Not exactly as strong as the West. So if you want to give it to Nash's team who had more wins, I'll give you that.
Kobe always had the ability to be a facilitator. Its just that now the other players around him, like Odom, are really stepping up and now the team is jelling at the right time. Lamar Odom has struggled all year. Odom sleep-walks in games a lot. Sometimes he is in the game, mentally, other times he isn't. He is the Lakers X-factor. If Odom shows up to play, the Lakers are a dangerous ballclub to deal with. Kobe put a team on his back that was fundamentally flawed to begin with. The Lakers are a poor defensive team, particularly on the interior. Did you see how many layups Steve Nash made that last game while lakers were just standing there watch him shoot them?
Also, Phil Jackson is a great coach. I know some may hate Phil, but Phil's greatest strength is maximizing talent. Look what he is getting out of Kwame Brown and Smush Parker. To be able to get some, just some production from Kwame Brown, is a feat in itself. Look how this ballclub is playing when it matters most. Phoenix dominated the Lakers in the regular season, and look how the tables are turned. Hats off to Phil Jackson.
I'm glad to see the Miami Heat struggle and self-destruct. Its called Karma. It serves Pat Riley right. He shouldn't have thrown Stan Van Gundy (who is a solid coach) under the bus like he did, just so he could credit for winning a title. Riley's selfish ways are blowing up in his face, and that is a good thing.
Also, Kenyon's Martin behavior doesn't suprise. The guy is overrated. He is tad bit better than Jermaine O'Neal, but that ain't saying much. The Nuggets demise as a franchise started with trading for and signing Martin to a maximum contract after he no-showed and failed to step-up in both NBA finals the Nets played. Poor Carmelo, and I thought Lebron had the worse team. lol!!
Why is Mike Tirico everywhere on TV? I can't stand him. He is horrible. Just horrible. Tirrico does every damn game there is, football, basketball, golf,and he is just plain horrible.
Lebron James is a better fullback for Cleveland than the HOF Jim Brown and Kevin Mack ever was.
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MCIGuy
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
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Post by MCIGuy on May 3, 2006 0:19:08 GMT -5
Yeah, I don’t like Kobe. But there are others I hated more. I despised Jordan. But I always gave him his credit as being one of the very best ever. I never liked Shaq. However I’ve also been able to concede his greatness as a player. I never hated a college player as much as I did Christian Laettner. But at the same time I consider him the greatest clutch college player I’ve ever seen. Gary Williams? Scum bag as far as I’m concerned. Hall of Fame coach too easily. I can go on. The point is my hatred for a player or person does not mean I am unable to concede their greatness. I respect Kobe’s game. I realize he is indeed one of the very top players in the NBA. But MVP? I don’t see it. What has he done this year for me to seriously consider him? Lead the league in scoring while leading his so-so team to a mid to a lower seed playoff birth? That sounds like what Iverson has done a few times in the last five seasons without getting anywhere near the media fawning for MVP consideration. I kept hearing and reading the past ten years that MVP candidates make their teammates better. Did Kobe do any of that this past season? Hell, no. Great player. Very good season. But considering his lack of assists and his team’s overall unimpressive finish I just can’t give him my vote. Not that it matters anyway.
Nonsense. One bad stretch in one game means he has been outplayed or under performing? Great players from Magic to Bird to Malone to Kobe have all had moments like that in their careers in which they made terrible decisions that led to their teams losing games. It happens. No one is perfect. Look at Kobe and his abysmal shooting in game one in which the Lakers lost. Look actually at his bad shooting overall in this series. Of course the media spin is that “selfless” Kobe is finally trusting his teammates (God, I hate that phrase) and passing the rock. Oh, please. If that’s the case he is an average passer at best with his 7 assists per contest in this series. I’ll give Kobe credit for not forcing the issue and taking shot after shot when the ball isn’t going in (something that Iverson still rarely concedes). But lets not act as if all of a sudden he’s Magic dishing out the rock. Nash is shooting the ball better, I believe averaging more points and is accumulating more assists. And he’s doing this all the while playing alongside a bunch of teammates who have not brought their A game. Meanwhile Kobe’s teammates have stepped up their games. They deserve credit for that. But I’m not buying this hard sell by the media that’s it because Kobe is suddenly making them great players with his leadership. Forget that.
Kind of like Kobe coming up short in Game One. But I’m not changing my opinion of who should be MVP from a game-to-game basis. And last time I checked the MVP Award is giving for the season. If the MVP was about the playoffs the formerly-comatose Lamar Odom would have to be given consideration too.
That style of play in which there is spacing, true team work, aggression on offense, a premium placed on shooting, passing and the acceptance of fast breaks as a weapon was similar to how the Celtics and the Lakers of the 80s won their championships. The true Golden Age of the NBA. This modern notion of keeping teams under 80, relying only on defense and the halfcourt game and taking the beauty out of the game is an unfortunate travesty that has manifested over the past twelve or so seasons, including during the Bulls’ second three peat run. Yeah, I’ll take Phoenix’s style any day. True they need to play better defense but lets not kid ourselves that the Magic Lakers or Bird Celtics ever played great defense. Rather as a team they outfought you and outscored you. They didn’t rely on one-man teams or a two-man game in the halfcourt. They were true teams full of guys who could fill it up. Their brand of ball is more exciting and to me more satisfying than anything the Spurs or modern day Pistons (at least until this season) have thrown our way the past few years.
Uh, no. Cassell may be the general who gets his teammates to raise their games. But you can’t give a true team MVP to a player you would never build a team around or start a team with. Brand is the guy who is the franchise of that team. If Kurt Thomas was on the Clippers as the starting power forward instead of Brand then the Clippers wouldn’t be going anywhere despite Cassell’s on court and locker room presence.
Again that’s a ridiculous argument. John Thompson could be considered a whiner or complainer considering all of his antics towards the refs when he was still coaching. Anyone who makes repeated complaints during games could be considered as a whiner. Its part of the game. Just don’t take it too far like Jim Boeheim. Yes, Jackson is the most serene coach there is during game day. So much so that at times he has been accused of not doing any coaching. But when the game is over, win or lose, he has had a history of complaining about everything to the media when he thinks his teams have been given a raw deal. That, sir, is the definition of a whiner. When a guy can’t even keep his yap shut after his team wins and feels the need to belittle the refs, opposing coach or opposing team then he loses all credit for being quiet during the games. Did you see D’Antoni make any complains about the non-calls during Sunday’s games after the game was over or during the day in between? No. That’s because he moves on. But if Kobe was the one to not get a timeout call or have his arms hacked by some nobody like Luke Walton you can sure bet that Chief Triangle would have been up to his old bag of tricks in front of the cameras and microphones. Lets stop the revisionism here. Just because you’ve fallen in love with Jackson and Kobe doesn’t change history or the facts.
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RDF
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
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Post by RDF on May 3, 2006 3:28:37 GMT -5
I'm not in love with Jackson or Kobe--I just use my EYES and not my heart/hatred to make decisions. You're a good guy but you act like a basketball snob here. MCI, you don't have basketball cornered buddy--and if you think you do, don't bother posting because all of us "peasants" will be below you. Let's put it this way-you tend to take comments that people put up and not read what they are saying. I NEVER said 1. Bryant should be MVP--said he should be CONSIDERED--which you were saying was ridiculous. 2. I never said Sam Cassell was franchise player-said he's the reason they are winning more--as he was when he played alongside Garnett the year they made WCF against Lakers. Is he a guy who helps his teams win games? Look at his history in the league--it speaks for itself. Brand is a good player--not an MVP caliber player--and if he is, the league is in trouble. 3. Steve Nash is a very good player--he has NOT outplayed Bryant in this Series. He could end up doing so--but head to head in Game 4 he choked, Bryant stepped up. Bryant's team has upperhand now and he's not forcing the issue--he's leading his team, and they have Series Lead--MVP's dont' allow their teams to lose to 7th seeded teams in the Playoffs and your bullcrap EXCUSE about his teammates not stepping up is proof that he's not an MVP caliber player--at least by the definition I set for the player earning that award--which isn't saying it's right--but it's my definition of who deserves it and I'd personally have voted for LeBron James if you want to know--which seems like it doesn't matter Mr. Holier then Thou. 4. I agree with your take on when Basketball was great in NBA--but.........................Phoenix doesn't resemble that level of ball at all--they run and fire, but they aren't nearly as talented and those teams obliterated everyone in the opening rounds to face off against really good teams. Phoenix is struggling with a 7th seeded team in the First Round. It's entertaining, but it's not great basketball if you want to win--you can't backtrack history or change the way teams win--you have to adjust which I think Suns did a better job of tonight--and they crashed boards more and did little things it takes--but they had NOT the previous 4 games. As I said above-they CAN STILL WIN and just need to play ball. 5. If you read what I said about Jackson--I AGREED with you on his childish antics in between games--he's a blowhard etc....so don't get your point there. All I was saying is D'Antoni is a crybaby--and you are right--I considered Pops a blowhard during games too--I hate coaches who focus on officials--it's a waste of time and their focus has to be on having their team overcome obstacles--which bad calls are a part of. 6. I'm sorry but your comments on "favorable officiating" are absolutely RETARDED. Especially after watching tonight's game. Bryant got called for fouls, he was played aggressively by Suns and they got away with some fouls--it's part of the game--if you disagree-watch his dunk on Tim Thomas where he's pushed in back, the trap in the corner which led to his ejection after Brown's foul--he's slapped/grabbed and there was no call. Referees tend to even things out if you watch an entire game/series. Nash was whining after the game--D'Antoni didn't have to--unless you didn't see him say in reference to Bell losing his composure and clotheslining Bryant "He shouldn't be suspended with all of the calls/breaks that have gone against us". BTW, I did agree with him that Brown should've been suspended for what he did in Game 3 if they are giving out suspensions for throwing mouth pieces, etc... that was worthy of an ejection. To me, you have gone off the deep end with this MCI. You aren't reading what I have written and admitting to hate someone so much that it influences your outlook this much is sad/bothersome. The games are meant to be enjoyed and I enjoyed this game as much as I did the other ones--I have NO ROOTING INTEREST, but I too watched the games and just dont' see it. You think for a minute Bryant gets treated like Jordan by officials/league? That was an entirely different level. I think your having flashbacks to Jackson/Jordan domination over Ewing's Knicks--who were not as good and didn't raise their games--it's why Jordan is/was a better Pro then Patrick--and Ewing is my favorite player of all time. It happens. Nothing you can do but hope the team improves or wins. As I've said throughout-Phoenix can still win, but not if Nash doesn't nut up and play some ball--he didn't sit tonight--which was one of my criticisms, and they win. He played more, and Shawn Marion actually did something other then disappear. Boris Diaw was fantastic and Tim Thomas has been one of the top 3 players on the court the minute he steps on it in this Series. I just refuse to hear of "Conspiracies", Bryant being garbage and not worthy of MVP consideration--again I did NOT say he deserved the award--but he deserves to be in the running. You need to read what others say and not get obsessed with hatred when it's not even close to truth. If you said Bryant is overhyped/loved by media--I agree wholeheartedly. If you said he's not as great as hype--yep. If you say AI is in same class as a player, I would agree talent wise--although I believe Bryant has shown more trust in teammates and smarts of when NOT to shoot--as you did mention. I just refuse to accept he's being outplayed by a guy who hasn't done anything special in this Series--has a better team--which if you go by the regular season as you want with the MVP award (which is correct by the way, I agree--but James and Bryant are better players), he should be winning. Nash is an All Star--he's NOT the best player in this league. Just ridiculous how far you've taken this and not actually READ what I and others have said to make some point that makes you feel better. Maybe you should start your own NBA board so you can talk to yourself and officially make yourself "Mr. NBA". I'll stick to what I watch and enjoy the games. You can't hide in Playoffs and truth will be exposed. So Suns still have a shot--and I think a better then good one to win--but if they don't, I don't want to hear about someone outplaying the winning team--it didn't happen. You don't outplay someone in 6/7 games and lose. One game--sure. But not a Series. And to blow off Game 4 as if "it was one of those games"--yeah--you give Nash a pass on those mistakes? Bryant gets no credit? Sad. Truly sad how blind you appear to be. If you read the posts above-take a look at Game One when Bryant gets whacked in the head and a welt is on his forehead--was that NOT a foul that was NOT CALLED?? Geez. We know you tape everything--so either watch it, or abstain from posting because this is becoming a sad, pathetic obsession MCI.
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MCIGuy
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
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Post by MCIGuy on May 3, 2006 9:33:48 GMT -5
Good Lord, what venom. This is very ironic RDF that you go on about telling me that I'm taking things personal, ignoring what others are writing, not reading carefully and, for goodness sakes, being elitist. That description could accurately describe you as well in this post and several others over the years. It sounds as if you are the one who is taking this thing too far. Its you who jumped down my throat from the very beginning after I wrote my original post. Its you who have ignored a bunch of my points (for some reason you are still stuck on conspiracy-debunking when I and others have already wrote there isn't a conspiracy) and assumed I've lost all common sense. . And to take the cake you tell me that I should stop posting on the subject. Why? Because I'm getting too obsessed with my hatred as you suggest? Bull. Just because I don't like a player doesn't mean I go around obsessing about a player or a team or a coach. Three posts about Kobe the entire year, all in this thread, does not equal an obsession. You act as if you are in my head and think you can tell when I don't use reason or when my emotions overcome my judgment. That's arrogant and absurd. Every thing I wrote is a legitimate opinion. Do you understand that word? An opinion. Its opinion I have formed and I think I have just as much evidence on my side as you think you have on yours. So spare me the psycho analysis. You're getting a little unhinge when you take it that far to suggest that I can't come to a logical conclusion because I'm too full of rage to see the light. Just state that you disagree with my stance and point out why. The rest of the stuff is not needed. And for your information I DID read all the posts of everyone in this thread. Reading is a key function of participating on a sports forum. But there were points that I did not see eye-to-eye with you guys.
By the way if I'm not mistaken in your first post you immediately dismissed me as someone smitten with Nash and the Suns to the point I could not think clearly. This is rich. I have tremendous respect for Nash, his coach and his team. But I didn't watch any of their games this season even though I had every opportunity to. I didn't keep up with the Suns as I did the Sixers and the Bulls. I didn't tape any Suns' games. I didn't go into this post season hoping and praying they would win the champinship as I used to do with the Knicks when Ewing was in New York. You see the last time I checked there are no darn Hoyas on the Suns. So I don't have a stake in their success or failure even though I think they are pleasnt to watch. I'm actually very objective about NBA players who were not Hoyas. So don't confuse the issue or paint me as some bias nutjob just because I don't see things the way you do. Because that is the worst type of intolerance one can find on a sports forum. You never saw me labeling you like that despite your non-stop rants concerning KG. I think I deseve a bit more respect than to be written off the way you just tried. And you may want to stop getting personal and telling people what they don't know every darn time you disagree. Go check out your first post in this thread. Check out the grenades you launch my way because you didn't agree with my point of view. So what happens when I finally give it back to you and suggest you are in love with Kobe and Phil Jackson? It ticked you off. Big time. Well, if you can't handle such barbs then I suggest you don't use such barbs in your own posts. You have a problem if you can point fingers at someone and not even realize the junk you pull. Arrogance? Check out your own posts, sir. Look in the miror first before going after someone else. If you can't then perhaps its you who need to stay off the boards until you can get a grip.
One thing I must add...despite your assertions (or implications) that I'm foaming at the mouth after every lakers' win, let me make it clear that I'm torn because part of me really wants to see the Clippers play the Lakers. But that can be done without what I thought was home-coking on Sunday. I did not see the first three games between the Suns and Lakers, only game four. So I can't speak on what happened those previous games. But what I saw Sunday was a joke as far as I'm concerned.
In the meantime my opinion of Kobe stands concerning the MVP race...if you don't mind. That's not hating. That is being true to what I feel a true MVP should accomplish. I am not the only one in the nation who feels that way so lets not act as if I just said the world is flat. I can disagree with your opinion while respecting what you have to say. Unfortunately it seems that you can't. Fine. But that's not my problem. Its just a freakin' sports argument, RDF. Stop trying to make it out to be something more than that.
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VelvetElvis
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
pka MrPathetic
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Post by VelvetElvis on May 3, 2006 9:43:46 GMT -5
There are too many words in this discussion. Can someone summarize?
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