RDF
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Post by RDF on May 7, 2006 11:35:36 GMT -5
Stoudemire's surgery is very touchy. It's been very hit/miss with athletes in football and in basketball the only guy I know who did the microfracture surgery was Chris Webber, although I'm sure others have had it since then, just don't know who? If he moves like Webber, he's done. Something tells me Stoudemire will put more into his rehab then Webber though. As for the game/series--the better team wins in Playoffs and that is why I enjoy it. The Suns controlled the last 4 games of this series and Bryant's big shots stole Game 4, and his performance in Game 6 made it possible for Lakers to be in position to steal the series too--so I'm not about to say he didn't play well, but Nash did what was needed and played to the level that is expected of an MVP in Games 5-7. I think it was telling though that Barbosa and Diaw also upped their games in that time period too and Tim Thomas was MVP of this Series for Suns, he was unreal. One thing I'm looking forward to seeing in the Clippers series is how Phoenix deals with a legit, All Star level post in Brand and a guard in Cassell who can post up Nash and beat on him down low. To me, the Lakers-Suns series changed with Smush Parker's game going AWOL--not to say he's got a lot of game but he played awful basketball from Game 4-7 with lone exception of last 15 seconds of Game 4 where he had 2 huge plays--3pt shot and steal. Nash didn't have to guard anyone, he was free to roam and that ignited the tempo for Suns more. Also felt it was funny to watch the series from a standpoint of how Suns let outside factors bother them in majority of Games 1-4 and then Lakers were bothered by things that didn't matter with a 3-1 series lead-showed some immaturity and leads to tight/silly play--bad shots, not getting back on defense, etc..whining to refs. Round One Done--expect Round Two to be good except for the beatdown Detroit is about to put on Cavaliers. That series screams sweep or 5 at the most. Otherwise, I'm looking forward to each matchup.
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on May 7, 2006 11:40:37 GMT -5
It would be a shame if Amare doesn't return at full strength because he was quickly becoming a Top 5 player in the elague and just as exciting to watch, in my opinion, as LeBron.
I don't need or want a repeat of Spurs-Pistons. So I'm hoping at least one of those teams doesn't make the Finals.
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RDF
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Post by RDF on May 7, 2006 13:59:19 GMT -5
It would be a shame if Amare doesn't return at full strength because he was quickly becoming a Top 5 player in the elague and just as exciting to watch, in my opinion, as LeBron. I don't need or want a repeat of Spurs-Pistons. So I'm hoping at least one of those teams doesn't make the Finals. Agree on all counts---I am a huge Stoudemire fan--but that surgery has been shaky at best when it comes to success rates and it's ended many NFL players careers and to me Webber's career too. I know he produces some numbers, but he's nowhere near the athletic PF he once was. I think Spurs won't make it to Finals if they keep playing as they have--now it's easy to say while they are playing and at the time trailing Dallas, but I haven't liked the "cruise control" they've been on all season and I know they had a great recrod, etc.. but they just don't seem as hungry as last year and Duncan is banged up with that bad foot injury. I think Detroit is a lock to Finals unless they suffer an injury to Billups or Wallace.
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Post by aussiehoya on May 8, 2006 12:46:27 GMT -5
i think it's pretty much set in stone that detroit will rise out of the east..
I'm encouraged by the fact that it came down to the last possession in san antonio yesterday. I think that the mavs have a legitimate shot at beating the spurs. Ugh I really hate the spurs.
On Stoudemire - yeah i also completely agree - you have to wonder whether his career is over. He was ready to become a monster (check that, already WAS a monster)... I really hope he can overcome it and return to form... Disagree that he's as exciting as Lebron though - don't think i'm going out on a limb with that.
Hmmm I love Sam Cassell. He really has been that missing piece for the Clips. Should be a great series between the two teams, but remains to be seen how many of the games i'll actually watch, given i live on the east coast.
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on May 8, 2006 14:02:45 GMT -5
On Stoudemire - yeah i also completely agree - you have to wonder whether his career is over. He was ready to become a monster (check that, already WAS a monster)... I really hope he can overcome it and return to form... Disagree that he's as exciting as Lebron though - don't think i'm going out on a limb with that. Did you check out the series last season against the Mavs and the Spurs. Amare put on a show all playoff long and became the most exciting big man to watch since the rookie Shaq. His throw downs were the best in the league and all season long were regularly displayed on Sports Center's Top Ten Plays. He was just as exciting as LeBron IMO because of how unbelievably powerful and explosive his slams were. He was easily the most exciting player in the playoff last year even more so than Vince, AI and McGrady.
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hoyarooter
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Post by hoyarooter on May 8, 2006 23:42:27 GMT -5
I was out of town much of last week and am now way behind at work (here now), so I haven't been able to contribute to the Kobe-Nash discussion, and don't really have much time to do so now. All I can say is that this Laker team had about as much business being in the playoffs as most Clipper teams prior to this season, and they were one screwed up defensive play away from beating the Suns. I honestly think that this was at worst Phil Jackson's second best coaching job. And MCI, you can hate on Kobe all you want, but I watched about 45 Laker games this season, and there is no doubt in my mind that without Kobe, that team wins 15 games tops. I really love watching Nash, but in my view the only other player that means nearly as much to his team as Kobe does to the Lakers is LeBron.
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Post by aussiehoya on May 9, 2006 8:42:58 GMT -5
^^ I will always defer to logic and people who have watched a good amount of regular season games.
I would ask though - what kind of MVP lets his team lose after going up 3-1 in a series? The last franchise player to do that (if memory serves) was the Immortal Tracy "it feels good to finally get out of the first round" McGrady.
The two things that the MVP trophy really is about is: - Value to their team and, - Wins.
For example, no player, no matter how valuable, will ever win an MVP trophy playing on the Atlanta Hawks. Thus, although I agree that Kobe's value to his team may be slightly higher than Nash's, I think Nash gets the MVP because he drove his team to more victories, a first round playoff win (yes i do realize it should be all about the regular season, but let's face it, early playoff results do count in our minds), all without his best player...
Speaking of amare - MCI - I like your moxie and yes while I do totally agree that he was the most exciting big man since good lord i don't know who, I think comparing big men to guards is like comparing apples to oranges - the guards are always going to be more exciting - crossovers, breaking people down off the dribble, ridiculous fall-away jumpers etc. The dunks are cool, but I think Lebron's overall repertoire is more exciting...
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on May 9, 2006 11:24:23 GMT -5
Nornmally I would agree. But Amare was special. No other big man was as fun to watch as that guy. His dunks and blocks were highlight material ni a way that no other big man could match. He put on an absolute show against the Mavs last year in the playoffs, particulary in this one game which was perhaps the most individual exciting performance I've seen in one game outside of those contests in which AI went off.
speaking of AI...hoyarooter, if we were to go by which player meant more to his team than any other than iverson would ahve won MVP six times by now. But there's far more to it than that. Does Nash have more talented teammates than Iverson had or Kobe has now? Yes. Even though Nash hasn't had the luxury of playing with a lot of true big men these past two seasons (actually he didn't play with any this season), he has had far more firepower to work with not to mention a coach who has a perfect system for his skills. But give Nash credit for making his teammates look special on a regular occassion. This is something that AI and Kobe have a problem with. Also give Nash credit for leading his team to very successful winning seasons. That makes him a better MVP selection than Kobe as far as I'm concerned.
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the_way
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Post by the_way on May 9, 2006 11:49:00 GMT -5
But give Nash credit for making his teammates look special on a regular occassion. This is something that AI and Kobe have a problem with. Also give Nash credit for leading his team to very successful winning seasons. That makes him a better MVP selection than Kobe as far as I'm concerned. This is what I take issue with. See, MCI this is where stats and media hype alone leads to inaccurate statements and watching games really tell the true story. You say AI and Kobe have a problem with making his teammates look special!? Well, what did Kobe do for 5 out of 7 games against the Suns!? He made the likes of Luke Walton, Kwame Brown, Brian Cook, etc. special. These aren't exactly great players, let alone guys who put fear in your hearts. The reason why Kobe and AI don't make their teammates special is because the guys they play with are scrubs for the most part. Both Kobe and AI are wonderful facilitators and distributors. They are great at doing that. Problem is, who are you going to distribute the ball to when you play with scrubs. How many times did Kobe pass the ball right to Kwame Brown under the basket only to have him drop the ball countless times because his hands are too small too palm a ball. Or Kobe passing the ball to teammates and they can't finish because they lack the ability to finish. The same goes for AI. Dalembert drops balls right and left catching passes from AI. Do you think Marion or Tim Thomas or Boris Diaw would have that problem?? That would curtail anybody's assist average. When you don't have players who can make plays or finish, its hard to be a facilitator when you are doing your job, but your teammates can't. Kobe did a masterful job at making his teammates better for most of the series until his teammates tanked by Game 6 and Game 7. But for the most part Game 6 and GAme 7 is more indicative of the type of team the Lakers have: Short on talent on the defensive and offensive end, with Kobe your primary option, Odom having inconsistent play, and nobody else stepping up. AI on the other hand has nobody to play with. How are you going to make Kevin Olie special?? How are you going to make Stephen Hunter (who played for Phoenix before he came to Philly and had roughly the same numbers while avg. 6 more minutes per game) special?? How are you going to make Shavlok Randolph special??? How are you going to make a passive talent in Iggy special when AI has been in his corner trying to motivate him and Iggy still is passive in games??? How are you going to make Samuel Dalembert special??? How are you going to make John Salmons special??? How are you going to make Kyle Korver special??? Chris Webber is washed-up malcontent and soft player who is a PF but would rather be a PG. Its a lot easier to make somebody special when your teammates are Sean Marion, Tim Thomas, etc. Or Amare Stoudamire and Quentin Richardson the year before or Dirk Nowitzki and Michael Finley on Dallas the year before that. Steve Nash is good, but come on, lets be real. Give Kobe and AI the type of talent Nash has been working and you will see a big difference. Put Nash on this year's Lakers team or Sixers team, and Nash wouldn't look like he looks right now. Neither would Jason Kidd who has Richard Jefferson and Vince Carter as weapons on his team to distribute the ball to
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on May 9, 2006 13:18:22 GMT -5
But give Nash credit for making his teammates look special on a regular occassion. This is something that AI and Kobe have a problem with. Also give Nash credit for leading his team to very successful winning seasons. That makes him a better MVP selection than Kobe as far as I'm concerned. This is what I take issue with. See, MCI this is where stats and media hype alone leads to inaccurate statements and watching games really tell the true story. You say AI and Kobe have a problem with making his teammates look special!? Well, what did Kobe do for 5 out of 7 games against the Suns!? He made the likes of Luke Walton, Kwame Brown, Brian Cook, etc. special.... Stop. I wrote Nash does this on a REGULAR occasion. Iverson's my boy but there are times in which he attacks and attacks without thinking about getting his teammates off and running first. Nash is perfect in that he has a tremendous feel for this game and therefore knows when to shoot and when to look for a teammate. The other two guys in this discussion can't say that. Now with that being said the other two guys are superior talents. And if you ask me who to take first out of the three, well, most times Nash would come dead last. Nash can't carry a bad team by himself like Iverson has done most of his career. Kobe has only had to do that two times so far and failed once while doing very well the following year (this season). Still lets give Nash his due and lets own up he does look for his teammates more and plays a smarter game (well, at least a smarter game than Iverson). Could Iverson thrive with this Phoenix talent. Hell, yes. It would be spooky to see what he could do. He could average more assists simply because he is so fast and because he would stay on the floor longer. But would he also forget about his teammates more often than Nash would? Yes. Any other answer is dishonest. I also have to wonder if Iverson or even Kobe would shoot the ball as well as Nash if they were on the Phoenix team. Iverson's percentage would go up simply because there would be more legit scorers for the defenses to worry about. But something tells me AI would still take a few unnecessary bad shots per game. Let me try explaining this a different way. I can concede Jordan is a superior player to magic Johnson while at the same time suggest that Magic was better at playing within a team concept and making those around him better players. That takes nothing away from MJ. Its just giving Magic his due. Right now I'm giving Nash his due. What's the big deal? I don't disagree. See: MCIGuy's rants form years past concerning Iverson's NBA teammates. I thought it was more like Kobe deciding to allow other teammates to shoot rather than taking 35 shots himself. I didn't see any double digit assists totals in his boxscore and therefore wasn't as awed by this showing as those of you who saw those games. I could be wrong. Fair enough but you do realize Iverson is so darn fast and so able to blow past defenders that he can pick up four assists per quarte easily even if he was playing with a bunch of CBA talent don't you? I'll give Iverson credit for passing the ball more and playing a smarter more efficient game. Assists are up, turnovers are down, shooting percentage is better, points are abundant. He is a far more special player than Nash eevn though in some ways he is not as perfectly suited for the team game as Nash is. Then again Jordan wasn't as suited for team play as purists may hve hoped either. My problem with AI is still the stupid shots he still takes, his refusal to work on his body during the offseason, his continued diet of junk food, his lack of preparation and breaking down film, etc. He's a first ballet Hall of Famer but just imagine where his legacy would be if he had used more common sense both on and off the court during his career. That's on him. Still he could have won more if he had had a functional GM over the years.
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the_way
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Post by the_way on May 9, 2006 13:43:17 GMT -5
MCI, Kobe and AI jack up a lot of shots and force things at times because they are the only reliable scoring options on their respective teams. Steve Nash isn't. He is the 3rd or 4th option on his team. Its a bigger difference. Kobe shooting 35 shots, is because his teammates aren't doing anything on the offensive end (See game 6 and game 7) of the Phoenix series.
Again, you can't just read a box score, and make a complete assessment of somebody without watching the game.
In terms of the Magic and Jordan comparison. They were two different types of players. BUT, Magic played with Kareem and James Worthy. Who did Jordan play with who was also a go-to-guy?? Don't say Pippen because he wasn't. Pippen took pressure off of Jordan by doing the little things,running the triangle offense, defending the opposing teams best wing-player, and running the fast break. But he was never a go-to-guy nor was he clutch player. Jordan handled all of that because he was the best player ever and was able to do that, but also he was only person on his team that could do that. When Jordan came back with the Wizards, I really got to see how much of a facilitator he was in terms of his passing, etc. Again, you would have to watch the game. Say what you want, Jordan had that team on the brink of the playoffs for the 2 years he played there, and they stunk the year before he came, and the year after he left. It wasn't just his scoring that did that. Now was Magic better at making his teammates better? Yes. Magic was the greatest ever at making his teammates better, IMO.
In terms of you problems with Iverson about taking care of himself and improving his game, I wholeheartedly agree. Iverson has been in the league 10 years, and he still does not have a deadly, consistent jump shot yet. Remember, Jordan developed it over the years. Kobe has developed it. Lebron has definitely improved in that area, and once he becomes conistent from outside he is going to be lethal. Carmelo has developed consistent jumper. Iverson could work on his game more. He does, but not to the degree as a Gilbert Arenas or Kobe or Lebron.
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RDF
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Post by RDF on May 9, 2006 14:29:57 GMT -5
AI averaged 33 and 8 assists with the GARBAGE in Philly this year--and yet I laugh at how he doesn't get "people involved" from the media perspective. You can't get guys involved that can't shoot the ball. They always say you have to "trust your teammates"--well give him someone to trust and he will, ;D
BTW--this isn't directed at anyone on the board--talking about media and their perception of Iverson. Also think he shot the highest percentage he has since being in the league this year and yet people like Ric Bucher said "Iverson needs to do more". Well facts are that if Nash put up those numbers, he'd be in MVP consideration and I'm talking about if he were on a crappy Sixers team and put up those numbers. My problem with him being named MVP and consecutive years in a row is when you look at those who have done this--they are Hall of Famers to the ELITE LEVEL and all won titles. Nash is same guy he was in Dallas and without him Dallas is as good of a team in terms of statistically and this year they are a superior team record wise. If a guy is that "valuable" to his team, why did the one he left surpass the level they were at with him on it? That is my argument against Nash. He's a great player but to me the MVP award is about the BEST PLAYER in the league--not the most valuable because if you measure "value" people like Iverson should win it in a landslide because that team without him wins 10/15 games tops. You take Nash out of lineup for Suns and their style doesn't change and in one game Diaw got a triple double when Nash didn't play and Suns won. It's the style of play that boosts the numbers and I don't fault Nash for that, but I think it's embarrassing that a guy who has played same way his entire career--which is good, but nothing spectacular--is treated like an "All Timer" for simply playing in an offensively friendly system. Jason Kidd put up similar numbers in New Jersey a few years back and didn't come close to the MVP. I think Kidd is the equal if not better all around player to Nash--career wise too.
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hoyarooter
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Post by hoyarooter on May 9, 2006 15:45:30 GMT -5
Is it permissible for me to agree with everybody? I agree with MCI (and everyone else) about AI and how much he means to the Sixers. He may actually have had the best individual season this year of any player in the league, and got zero credit because the Sixers were so dreadful. I agree with everything Way wrote (gasp), particularly his comments about how AI and Kobe's assist numbers are adversely affected by their teammates' inability to finish. I agree with MCI's comments about Nash. He is the best distributor of the ball currently playing, and as RDF points out, he is in a perfect system for his game. His defense still is poor, however (just thought I would throw that in). I don't think he should have been MVP this season, but he's a legitimate candidate, and I won't cry over his having won. I think there was more that I agree with, but I can't remember any more, and I'm out of time. Good night now!
Almost forgot, I also want to add how I hope that Amare comes back at 100%. He's the best big to come into the league since The Big Crybaby, and he may be (have been?) the best big man ever getting up and down the floor. The guy is (was?) just a phenomenal finisher, and I hope his abilities aren't curtailed due to the microsurgery.
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on May 9, 2006 21:35:42 GMT -5
One ironic thing about dishing out sympathy for Kobe's situation concerning a lack of talented teammates is that Kobe could have had still been playing with Shaq the last couple of seasons. And while Shaq's best days are now officially behind him he would still be a better force than anything Kobe has to work with now. Oh, and of course the Shaq of last season and even the Shaq of this season is a better player than anyone Iverson has ever had the fortune to work with on the NBA level. But of course Kobe was mostlly responsible for O'Neal's departure. So its hard for me to feel to sorry for Kobe. He wanted a chance to be Mike circa 1984 to 1987. Now he has a chance. I'm sure AI would have been more appreciative of playing alongide a Shaq in his prime for all those years.
Of course Iverson wears on me for not asking to be traded already. Why is he so loyal to Philly? Does he not care about winning it all? Does eh actually really like the city and its people? Does he feel is his buddies and family members who live off his riches won't like to pack up and move? Listen its great that Iverson doesn't want to "chase a championship". Its honorable...to a point. But it could also be viewed as if AI is comfortable getting paid millions to win scoring championships in Philly without his team being a serious threat to win it all. If he wants to stay in Philadelphia he could at least start demanding that his GM goes after a few good players. He could at least, as leader of the team, demand that every one on the team, including himself, dedicate their summer to improving their games and spending time together to work on their oncourt chemistry. He could at least stand up for a coach like Jim O'Brien whom, while antagonistic at times to the players, proved himself capable of getting the Sixers to the playoffs rather than happily go along with a change in direction which ended up being the bringing in of player-friendly Mo Cheeks. As great as AI has been he does not truly commit himself to being the very best player he can be. And he does not set an off the court tone (practice, work habits, fitness training, professionalism such as being on time for his own charity events) that the other Sixers can follow. The tone he sets is almost strictly limited to what he does off the court and even sometimes that comes into questions considering how regularly the Sixers lose games to inferior teams or blow 4th quarter leads.
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the_way
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Post by the_way on May 9, 2006 22:06:31 GMT -5
Eh, MCI, you are wrong again about why Shaq was traded to Miami. See, if you let the media spin it, its Kobe's fault. Talk to some people in LA who knows what really went down. Shaq asked to be traded because he wanted more money, and the owner told him he needs to shape up. Shaq was coming into camp out of shape, he had a lot of injuries and wanted an enormous amount of money, that really wasn't warranted. And if you want to be honest, the Lakers hadn't won the NBA title the last 2 years he was there. The fans in LA liked Kobe more and were disappointed in Shaq's coming into seasons out of shape and fat. Shaq clowned the owner, Jerry Buss. So, Buss did the right thing and traded him. And he was smart. He kept the younger and more popular player in LA. Now he could build another team faster around a franchise player. They couldn't do that with signing Shaquille to an extension and they would be stupid to get rid of Kobe. And if Kobe Bryant was that bad of person as the media would like to portray him to be, why did Phil Jackson come back? Buss made the right decision, and look at Shaq. He is out of shape, often injured and is on a serious decline. And if you notice, as soon as he was traded to Miami, he lost an enormous amount of weight because Pat Riley told him the same thing about being in shape. Shaq obeyed because he wanted the contract extension. And Miami was dumb enough to give him 100 million dollar contract for 5 years this past year. He wanted MORE money with the Lakers. He felt he was taking a pay cut with the Miami Heat contract, but he did it to allow them to sign other players. Funny, he didn't want to do that with the Lakers. Ironically, it doesn't look like the Heat is going to win the title anytime soon. Shaq isn't getting any younger or healthier. Again, Shaq wanted out, he wanted money that, frankly, he wouldn't be earning because the Lakers and Buss could forsee his decline as a player. It wasn't worth it. Shaq asked for a trade. He forced his hand, not Kobe. Let's get that clear.
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on May 9, 2006 23:32:10 GMT -5
No one suggested the big baby Shaq was without fault (and my dislike of Shaq has lasted for 12 plus years), but the main guy responsible for the breakup was Kobe who let it be known, behind closed doors, that he would possibly not resign with the team if things had stayed the same. And with a threat like that the owner decided to go with the younger star. If you do not believe Shaq or the media reports at the time, you should check out Phil Jackson's comments to the press and in his own book. Of course Phil, showing the character flaws I always knew he had, ended up putting on his best spin about not really having problems with Kobe when he came crawling back to LA for hils old job (he needs the glamour and prestige that a team like the Lakers presents).
The truth is despite Kobe's talents he is essentially the Barry Bonds of the NBA. By that I mean his fellow stars don't even seem to care for him even though the NBA generally is a league in which professional jealousy and bitterness is less prevalent than it is in other American professional sports leagues. Iverson is a player who is well liked even by his former teammates whom he drove crazy (can't find anyone who says bad things about him), is well liked by his current teammates according to reports and is well liked by NBA super stars all across the league (all the stars seem to shower praise on Iverson...they may not want to play with him on a regular basis because of his style but they like him). On the other hand its hard to find former teammates or current NBA stars who actually get along or hang out with Kobe. In part that's because Kobe has puposely kept teammates at a distance. But an even bigger reason for this is that Kobe rubs people the wrong way. He comes across as aloof, arrogant, superior. Former teammates who won championships with him either can't stand him or just indifferent about him all the while respecting his talent. NBA superstars give lukewarm responses whe asked to talk about Kobe. You can assume its jealousy but when MJ was the clear best player in the league I don't recall such a lack of affection from his colleagues in the league other than the Detroit Pistons. Even teammates whom he rode hard and angered still wanted to be liked by him and appreciated him even more once they retired from the game or moved on to other teams (with the understandable exception of Bill Carthwright). But Kobe? He is a different story. The main love for Kobe comes from his apologists in Lakers' fandom who would like to make you think he does no wrong and was the victim in the breakup of the Lakers' dynasty. Yeah, right.
Maybe I shouldn't go here but we are talking about a guy who has basically been disowned by his family (his parents). And it has nothing to do with money nor does it directly have anything to do with the woman Kobe chose to marry (as was once suggested). That's very telling IMO.
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the_way
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Post by the_way on May 10, 2006 8:06:50 GMT -5
MCI, you are a typical Kobe hater. ;D You just can't use a sentence without throwing a pot-shot at Kobe. lol!!! Its okay though, I've dealt with many a Kobe hater and they all say the same tired out things. ;D To compare Kobe to Barry Bonds is laughable. Totally two different people. I'm also a big Barry Bonds fan as well. Barry is a defensive person. Kobe isn't. Kobe is a private person, Barry isn't. Barry is a people person and has friends that he hangs out with in MLB. With Barry, its a love or hate thing with him amongst his peers. People either love him and support him 100%, or people really hate him 100%. There is no in-between. Kobe is more of reclusive, to himself, a loner. But he isn't combative if he feels threatened, he usually withdraws. Barry, if he feels threaten will hold his ground and lash back at you. People don't have problems with Kobe. He chills with people. You see him at the all-star games hanging out with guys sometimes. He is just a unique type of guy. When he first started with the Lakers he didn't hang with any of them because he was 17. John Salley and them would go to clubs, that Kobe could never go to because of his age. He was still a kid. There is only one person that hates Kobe in this league: Raja Bell. Thats it. Shaq doesn't hate Kobe. The problem Shaq and Kobe had was that they were both dominating personalities. Shaq is use to controlling everything around him. He did that to some degree with Penny and he does that with Wade. Kobe is an independent,free thinker. You aren't going to control him. That is the main reason he had a dispute with Shaq. That is the main reason he had a dispute with his parents. Kobe started making decisions for himself, as a man at 17, and his parents didn't like it. They wanted control over him, to keep him as a little boy. Instead of applauding his independence at such a young age, they hated it because they were control freaks. That was the point of contention. In terms of Jordan, a lot of his teammates were in awe of him and/or were scared to death of him and his wrath. Again, the main person who wasn't was Bill Cartwright and later on Dennis Rodman. Bill Cartwright would stand up to Jordan and was one of the leaders of the team. He wasn't afraid of Jordan, like the others. BJ Armstrong and Jordan were good friends. Jordan and Charles Oakley were tight, even till this day. That's about it. And Jordan's peers hated him when he first came into the league. Jordan was Allen Iverson before Allen Iverson. Intead of tatoos, Jordan was playing with gold chains on his neck during games. He was a new thing that came along and his older peers resented him. But later on, people hated Jordan for obvious reasons: they simply couldn't beat him. ;D Kobe's teammates now don't have a problem with him. They are kind of in awe of him, like Jordan's teammates at Chicago. The only teammate that has had a serious problem with Kobe was Shaq, really. Thats it. The hate on Kobe is media driven. Everything he does has a negative spin to it. And unfortunately, a lot of people are easily swayed by the media without looking deeper into the situation or simply looking at the facts or watch the actual games. In terms of basketball, has he done some things that were his fault? Sure he has. But the disproportionate level of negative publicity he gets is uncalled for, IMO. Same with AI. Both AI and Kobe march to the beat of their own drum. And people can't stand that or are jealous of it. They both could care less what people think about them. However, when they both step on the court, there aren't 2 players in the league that are better competitors and that are as mentally tough as Kobe Bryant or Allen Iverson. And their detractors can't stand that, because they can't DENY that hardcore fact.
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kchoya
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
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Post by kchoya on May 10, 2006 9:32:04 GMT -5
All I know is that a real MVP would not go out and with 1 point on three shots in the second half of a game 7. And does anyone think that Jordan would put up the same performance under the same circumstances?
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the_way
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Post by the_way on May 10, 2006 10:56:36 GMT -5
All I know is that a real MVP would not go out and with 1 point on three shots in the second half of a game 7. And does anyone think that Jordan would put up the same performance under the same circumstances? Blah, Blah, Blah. Typical Kobe hater response. One, he ain't Michael Jordan. He is Kobe Bryant. And Kobe Bryant did what he was coached to do in Game 7. Phil even said it after the game. A real MVP would listen to his Coach and the game plan, which he did. And he carried them in the first half and they still were getting blown out. In the 2nd half, he tried to get his teammates involved because 5 players can beat 5 players, not 1. And they still were getting blown out. A real MVP carries a mediocre team of young and inexperienced talent and pushes a 2 seed to a 7 game series where in 5 of the 7 games he either facilitated the offense or was the primary source of the offense. In Game 6, he carried them when they failed to show up and they still lost. In Game 7, he carried them in the first half with scoring and they were still getting blown out. In the 2nd half, he tried to get them involved and they were getting blown out. They couldn't stop anybody on defense. He was getting doubled and trippled team, and Phoenix forced the other Lakers to beat them, which they couldn't. So, there you have it. Kobe gave an MVP performance during the series. Of course, Kobe haters fail to acknowledge the truth, only b.s. propaganda by the media.
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hoyarooter
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
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Post by hoyarooter on May 10, 2006 12:32:25 GMT -5
Wow, way is quite the Kobe apologist! ;D
Anyway, there is a fair amount of truth to all of this. Way is absolutely correct about the conflict between Shaq and Buss relating to money. However, the animus between Shaq and Kobe was real. I personally would blame Shaq 60/40, but clearly both were significantly responsible. To just put the blame on Kobe or primarily on Kobe is wrong. I don't know if Kobe actually put the heat on Kupchak and Buss to trade Shaq (apparently Kobe was willing to just leave), but I think two things can't be denied. First, the threat of Kobe's departure forced the Lakers to trade Shaq sooner than they would have liked, so perhaps a better deal could have been made if Kobe and Shaq were getting along. Second, if Kobe and Shaq had gotten along better, Shaq might not have made his trade demand (we'll never know; perhaps the mere unwillingness of Buss to pay Shaq $30 million a year would have resulted in the trade demand anyway), which could also have resulted in the Lakers making a better deal. The bottom line is we will never know how this would have played out if Shaq and Kobe hadn't been feuding. One thing that I believe, though, is absolutely true (perhaps because I suggested this to RDF way before the fact) is that the Lakers would have traded Shaq regardless unless he brought his salary demands way down (as he did with the Heat), and perhaps Buss had decided it was time to move him anyway, since his performance was heading toward a downward arc.
One other point about Kobe (and I don't know this for a certainty; I only know what I read) is that a number of his teammates and Phil have spoken out about how Kobe's team leadership really blossomed this year. Will this make the Lakers a more popular destination for free agents? Only time will tell. The fact remains that Kobe, Odom and a bunch of stiffs or near-stiffs (that's right, I'm still not sold on Kwame Brown) came within one play of beating the Suns.
I can't really comment on Kobe's game 7 performance, because I saw little of it. I was outside playing with my almost 3 year old daughter, and while I wanted to watch the game, she was having so much fun, that I didn't have the heart to drag her inside. When I finally turned the game on, the Lakers were losing by 22 in the third quarter, so I switched to the Dodger/Brewer game. I don't know if Kobe shut it down, but it's not out of line for someone to think that, because it's happened before.
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