SoCalHoya
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
No es bueno
Posts: 1,313
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Post by SoCalHoya on Jan 13, 2005 15:21:11 GMT -5
Firing squads should never be formed in a circle. Esherick is and always will be a Hoya. The man should be left in peace.
There are thousands of 'Cuse, Buckeye and ACC folks out there we can use as targets.
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GUHoya07
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 4,083
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Post by GUHoya07 on Jan 13, 2005 15:21:45 GMT -5
BUT THAT WAS NOT AN AIM OF THE RALLY!!!!!!!! IT MAY HAVE HAPPENED AS A RESULT, BUT THE FIRING OF ESHERICK WAS NOT A GOAL!!!!!!!
It wasn't even thought to be possible. It was about other improvements to the basketball program, most of which still need to be addressed
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the_way
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
The Illest
Posts: 5,422
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Post by the_way on Jan 13, 2005 15:26:19 GMT -5
BUT THAT WAS NOT AN AIM OF THE RALLY!!!!!!!! IT MAY HAVE HAPPENED AS A RESULT, BUT THE FIRING OF ESHERICK WAS NOT A GOAL!!!!!!! It wasn't even thought to be possible. It was about other improvements to the basketball program, most of which still need to be addressed You can spin it all you want, but this statement here: Was I happy the rally that YB and I worked on got him fired? Yes.I mean, it is pretty self-explanatory if you ask me.
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SFHoya99
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 17,791
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Post by SFHoya99 on Jan 13, 2005 15:26:43 GMT -5
BUT THAT WAS NOT AN AIM OF THE RALLY!!!!!!!! IT MAY HAVE HAPPENED AS A RESULT, BUT THE FIRING OF ESHERICK WAS NOT A GOAL!!!!!!! It wasn't even thought to be possible. It was about other improvements to the basketball program, most of which still need to be addressed I was wondering whether or not you or YB would get to it first.
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DanMcQ
Moderator
Posts: 30,608
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Post by DanMcQ on Jan 13, 2005 15:29:19 GMT -5
Was I happy the rally that YB and I worked on got him fired? Yes. Be careful. YB goes to GREAT pains to make it clear that getting him fired was NOT THE POINT of the rally. There is also very little evidence that the rally had much, if anything, to do with what ultimately transpired.
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Post by jerseyhoya34 on Jan 13, 2005 15:31:20 GMT -5
You can spin it all you want, but this statement here by StPetersburgHoya: Was I happy the rally that YB and I worked on got him fired? Yes.I mean, it is pretty self-explanatory if you ask me. theway, you are a serial flip-flopper on this site. You began as perhaps Esherick's strongest defender and now that the JT3 Era has started nicely, your reaction is, "Oh yeah... Me too." I cannot for the life of me figure out why you were so opposed to the rally given all of the statements by YB, who organized it. You nonetheless find it worthy to attack these efforts by well-intentioned Hoyas.
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SFHoya99
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 17,791
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Post by SFHoya99 on Jan 13, 2005 15:32:55 GMT -5
Be careful. YB goes to GREAT pains to make it clear that getting him fired was NOT THE POINT of the rally. That's fine for YB, and I'm sure his intent was the higher road. That said, the vast multitude of support for the rally/petitions/letters came from folks wanting to fire Esherick and who saw it as the first (and maybe only) step and a sign of institutional commitment. He wasn't doing the job. That's all. I'm glad he caught on with AOL, and I wish the Voice would write an article about our freedom-fighting Jon Wallace. After all, if Syracuse wins the Big East, the terrorists have already won.
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Post by jerseyhoya34 on Jan 13, 2005 15:36:24 GMT -5
That said, the vast multitude of support for the rally/petitions/letters came from folks wanting to fire Esherick and who saw it as the first (and maybe only) step and a sign of institutional commitment. I think this is junky logic. You don't throw the leaders under the bus based on the ideas and beliefs of the folks they are leading.
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Post by HoyaRejuveNation85 on Jan 13, 2005 15:36:47 GMT -5
I'm glad JT3 is in charge and even advocated for Esh's removal at the Hoyas Unlimited Reception in NYC last year during the BET, but the Voice article is piling on. The Hoyas are on the rise and we all, including the Voice, need to move on. Leave the guy be. He is and always will be a Hoya.
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DanMcQ
Moderator
Posts: 30,608
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Post by DanMcQ on Jan 13, 2005 15:37:39 GMT -5
That's fine for YB, and I'm sure his intent was the higher road. That said, the vast multitude of support for the rally/petitions/letters came from folks wanting to fire Esherick and who saw it as the first (and maybe only) step and a sign of institutional commitment. He wasn't doing the job. That's all. I'm glad he caught on with AOL, and I wish the Voice would write an article about our freedom-fighting Jon Wallace. After all, if Syracuse wins the Big East, the tecordists have already won. Can't disagree with much of what you wrote. I was just pointing out the inconsistency of StPeteHoya's statement with what has been the past 'party line' of the organizers of the event. When accused of having that intent in the past, they have all signed on to the 'high road' of 'improving the program' and have been quite vehement about defending that position.
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GUHoya07
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 4,083
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Post by GUHoya07 on Jan 13, 2005 15:40:34 GMT -5
I know that there was a lot of support from people who wanted Esh fired, however, I believe I worked the most closely with YB and I can promise everyone that the firing of Esherick was not a goal of ours, nor did we even think it was a possibility. It was all about getting other things done to improve the program that did not involve the coach.
However, there were confusing things leading up to the rally. Even the flyers YB made up said something like "Unhappy with the Direction of the Program? Come to the Rally" and stuff like that which could be construed as a need to fire Esherick. However, regardless of what anyone thinks, getting Esh fired was not a goal. I will admit that i was happy when he got fired, but that was no way a part of our efforts in the rally. The whole campus may have thought it was a "Fire Esherick" Rally, but that was just vast confusion and a major misunderstanding.
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the_way
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
The Illest
Posts: 5,422
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Post by the_way on Jan 13, 2005 15:42:37 GMT -5
theway, you are a serial flip-flopper on this site. You began as perhaps Esherick's strongest defender and now that the JT3 Era has started nicely, your reaction is, "Oh yeah... Me too." I cannot for the life of me figure out why you were so opposed to the rally given all of the statements by YB, who organized it. You nonetheless find it worthy to attack these efforts by well-intentioned Hoyas. Jersey, If you actually READ my statements, you will see where I stand. I know what I say, and I don't SPIN what I have to say, either. What I SAY, I mean.
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Post by jerseyhoya34 on Jan 13, 2005 15:44:43 GMT -5
I read your statements and know where you stand. You've been on this board long enough to take both sides of every issue, the coaching one included.
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SFHoya99
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 17,791
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Post by SFHoya99 on Jan 13, 2005 15:52:39 GMT -5
I think this is junky logic. You don't throw the leaders under the bus based on the ideas and beliefs of the folks they are leading. I was not aware I threw YB under a bus. I hope it was a small one, and that he's not too smushed. All I'm saying is that I believe them when they say that wasn't their intention. I'm also saying that part of the result was the firing, and everyone knew darn well that many people at the rally had anti-Esherick sentiments. I don't think anti-Esherick sentiments were all that bad. Why are we talking about this?
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GUHoya07
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 4,083
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Post by GUHoya07 on Jan 13, 2005 15:54:06 GMT -5
Yeah, lets stop it, this is really pointless. This is over with and we should be talking about the game on Saturday and the bright future of our rising program! HOYA SAXA!!!
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KHoyaNYC
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,900
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Post by KHoyaNYC on Jan 13, 2005 15:55:47 GMT -5
I can't figure it out either - I still say the old the_way was kidnapped and replaced by a clone. I mean, would the old the_way write this?:
"Esherick, nice guy and solid loyal assistant coach, was not a good head basketball coach for G'town. "
Not a chance. The old the_way defended Esherick's coaching ability to the day he was fired. This the_way goes much more with the flow. It works for me.
Anyway water under the bridge. It's nice to be united under JTIII.
GO HOYAS
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Boz
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
123 Fireballs!
Posts: 10,355
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Post by Boz on Jan 13, 2005 16:08:48 GMT -5
Oh, and for the person who joked that they should go back to reviewing indy bands: the Voice today has a reivew of Belle & Sebastian. Yeah, they only missed the boat by a few years on that one. When other bands (Franz Ferdinand) start citing the band in your headline (B&S) as an "influence", its not exactly trendsetting anymore. But I don't think it was a review, just part of the headline. (clearly, however, the Voice people get Spin magazine, with the touting of The Arcade Fire). As for the Esh article, I certainly never have any problem when people try to poke fun & have a few laughs, but (much like the team itself in recent years) the execution just wasn't there. Was it really a quality joke to imply that Esh wouldn't know how to spell the name of his best player, Mike Sweetney? (or maybe the author just didn't know). The jokes were pretty lame, I have to say. The real issue is, what's the point? It's over and done with. As a flash in the pan band from my college days used to say, "Baby, baby, don't look back...it don't do no good." Humor articles like these are good filler, something nice to have around when you need to take up some space, but at least make them contemporary. Is there anyone who really feels that nice, vindicated humor by jumping all over Esh, now that the team has moved on? Write something funny about JTIII's inferiority complex, only a handkerchief to his Dad's towel. Do a bit on Jeff Green's T.J. Houshmanzadeh hairdo. Run an interview with DJ & Brandon's sweatbands. I will always appreciate Esh's commitment to Georgetown, but I too am happy he is not here. We can leave it at that, I think. Besides, why do on our own what other schools are doing. I make Gerry Faust jokes all the time, but I don't know too many people who WENT to Notre Dame who make them.
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Post by StPetersburgHoya (Inactive) on Jan 13, 2005 16:22:07 GMT -5
Look let me make this clear. YB, Kurt, myself, and several other Hoyas worked on the rally not specifically for the aim of firing Esh. We did it because there are numerous problems with the facilities, fundraising, student booster organizations, culture, communications, and long term solvency of Georgetown University athletics. We had a meeting with University Vice Presidents Dan Porterfield and Todd Olsen in which we voiced these concerns - they were both very understanding and supportive - however all of our demands have not been met at this time - nor do I feel that they will be met in the next 5 years unfortunately. However, I do feel that the coaching change was a positive side benefit of the rally. If you review my post I do not say that the rally had the purpose, intent, or aim of removing Esh as Georgetown's mens basketball coach - I simply said that I personally was happy with the fact that Esh was fired in an attempt to somehow satisfy those who led the rally. While I do feel that it has definitely made a difference in W's and L's already and in player development, I do not think that it addresses the long-term problems that still exist in the athletic department. YB and I have had numerous conversations about fundamental changes that need to be made in this regard and I commend YB and Kurt for their work to this end. I did not mean to open a wound that is still relatively fresh for some people - please do not take me out of context though.
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Post by StPetersburgHoya (Inactive) on Jan 13, 2005 16:30:42 GMT -5
WOW!!!!! Now THAT is something. That is worst than what was written in the Georgtown Voice Article. Please take that back. I have been a loyal fan of Georgetown University athletics ever since I was accepted. As YB and Kurt and CAHoya can attest, I have nothing but the upmost respect for an alumnus like Esh who gives back to Georgetown. The rally was not about firing Esh and I also did not say that the rally was specifically aimed at that. I consider this an unnecessary ad hominem attack. We are all Hoyas here and should be focusing on the positive outlook that this basketball season is affording us. Please read Dan's post. It would be arrogant of me to assume that a student and alumnus planned rally actually had an effect on a decision that was made at the highest administrative level. As Kurt has said, we didn't even think that we could effect such a decision at all. Now that I'm done venting ... we have a very important Big East road game on Saturday and the potential to be 3-1 in conference. Why are we talking about a decision that happened 8 or 9 months ago? Let's just let it be water under the bridge and acknowledge that we have differing views on the issue.
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FLHoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Proud Member of Generation Burton
Posts: 4,544
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Post by FLHoya on Jan 13, 2005 17:02:34 GMT -5
"Perhaps it is a slight to the many student fans of the Class of 2004 who were involved with some of the efforts begun during the weeks surrounding the Esherick decision-namely the Save the Hoyas petition and the accompanying Healy Circle rally-to imply that Generation Burton up and died when Craig Esherick was fired. It's not intended to be.
It is, however, undeniable, at least from my perspective, that the decision to fire Craig Esherick was the first in a series of events-the hiring of John Thompson III as Head Basketball Coach foremost among these-that have created a renewed sense of optimism among the returning student fans about the team and, perhaps more importantly, the direction of the program.
This sense of optimism and excitement, I believe, is (at least for now) the "common atmosphere" that defines the student fan base. And, thus, makes them different from the final days of Generation Burton.
This atmosphere presents a great deal of exciting opportunities for the fans of the Class of 2005 and beyond. It does not come without responsibility, however.
It is now clear that with a new coach, new Athletic Director, and presumably a new sense of direction in that vague structure called "McDonough", there are no longer any convenient excuses to sleep on Georgetown basketball this coming season. To paraphrase a famous political one-liner, you won't have Craig Esherick to kick around anymore.
In many ways, Georgetown's basketball program is getting a fresh start from top to bottom-from the A.D. to coaches to players to fans. It is imperative that we work together to make it a good start."
--"Generation Burton" ("What's Next?"), 7/9/04
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I can't help but contrast this thread with another one that's gotten a lot of responses in the last 24 hours. I'm talking about the one started by Caddyshack4, who is a High School senior coming to Georgetown next year. How great is it to see not only a future Hoya already so excited about being part of the student section and learning how to get themself and others involved with supporting the program, but a bunch of current students already volunteering to help him out and sharing their own stories.
That thread is sort of the condensed version of what I think has been so great about the student basketball fanbase this year. More and more fans are not only coming to games, but taking an active interest in building the "community" of the student section, as it were. I really do think the "renewed sense of optimism" I could see even from the day JT3 was hired has come through in a big way so far this year.
It's too bad we sometimes have to deal with reminders of the bad stuff of our not too distant past. The worst part about the article that appeared this morning in The Voice--worse than any of the legitimate and correct criticisms already voiced related to poor taste, bad writing, piling on, etc.--is that it has already forced us on this here board and others who read the paper today to look BACK rather than FORWARD. To dredge up all of the negative emotions and relive the era of a sharply divided Georgetown fanbase of alums and students.
Much more than our poor record, it was the negative attitude and snarkiness of fans that made it almost not fun for me to go to games last year, and it was what "inspired" me to write my silly little Generation Burton columns in the first place. I couldn't stand the idea that our fanbase could be headed down such a negative direction.
And we aren't anymore--I can't begin to explain how pleasantly different things are this year, how every student seems to really embody the idea of moving forward with the program.
Stuff like this--a silly article and one poster inadvertantly using a bad word choice to convey his intended meaning about a Rally--is distracting us from the exciting stuff that is going on with our program in the PRESENT by forcing us to relive our arguments of the past.
You know, in the next five days, we'll be playing in a game commemorating Villanova's 1985 National Title AND at the Carrier Dome. We've witnessed the short but happy careers of Jonathan Wallace and Jeff Green continue to blossom. At long last, we finally got to the bottom of how old Roy Hibbert is. And we're exceeding expectations and winning new fans every day--from local folks in NW D.C. to a high school kid from Michigan.
I share everyone's reaction to the article in question and I don't presume to be the message board thread police, BUT...
When you think about how great everything looks for the future of Georgetown basketball, doesn't it seem kind of silly to be worrying and arguing about the past?
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