NCHoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
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Post by NCHoya on Dec 30, 2012 20:38:22 GMT -5
Thanks for putting all that together blark! Based on those numbers, Dayton is almost an absolute must have. The school fits the profile and is well supported for the long-term. They seem like a fit along with X, Butler and Gonzaga from a basketball standpoint. The Dayton market adds nothing, but the most healthy programs should be considered right now. I would love to have another east coast team if we go to 12, but I just do not believe in VCU. I feel like their success is completely dependent on Shaka Smart and he will have so many attractive opportunities to leave. For the same reason, I am down on Creighton as well. How will they fair once McDermott graduates?
Just not sure who that 5th team but would probably lean toward Creighton given it is a Jesuit school and has twice the attendance of VCU. I wish we could get BYU, too bad that is not happening.
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idhoya
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
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Post by idhoya on Dec 30, 2012 21:16:01 GMT -5
Again, Shaka coulda bounced right after the FF when he was at his hottest (he had offers), but he chose to sign an extension that put him in the million dollar plus club; VCU ponied up. Unlike Capel and to an extent Grant, who left when the big schools came calling. I think he's there until stupid money comes calling or the bottom falls out.
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HoyaTex22
Century (over 100 posts)
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Post by HoyaTex22 on Dec 30, 2012 22:18:38 GMT -5
Hey guys, there is a new C7 board where all the C7 and new teams discuss what our future holds as a new conference. Lots of college sports talk minus the FB discussion. Drop on by and let us know what the Hoyas faithful are thinking. link deletedHasn't this guy already been warned twice about diverting? I motion for boycott. second?
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RBHoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 4,127
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Post by RBHoya on Dec 31, 2012 1:41:16 GMT -5
I feel like this thread can kind of go in circles when we're not getting new news. As far as Gonzaga, I hope we can all agree to this: if they are willing to join, they're a no-brainer. Their addition to the league in any capacity more than pays for any additional travel costs, and they bring a ton of credibility to a league that desperately needs it at this juncture. The only question is if they'd do it. I tend to think it's only worth it for them if they can somehow be "basketball only." I would guess that sending their non-rev sports all the way across the country for every conference game would be terrible financially and be terrible for their ability to recruit in those sports. Basically, just a bad proposition for all of those sports and all of those student athletes. So the question will be, under NCAA rules, is it POSSIBLE for them to enter into a basketball only arrangement with the new league? You would think that with all of the message board chatter about this stuff that somebody would get to the bottom of that. Because if the answer is that it is absolutely not permitted, we can probably move past the Gonzaga chatter. As far as Dayton--still not sold as a first round add, unless our hand is forced to expand and a few of the other options are off the board. Yes they have a nice gym, good attendance numbers and their program makes a lot of money. Great. So where are the results? If their fundamentals are so strong, they should be winning the A-10 or at least in the hunt every year. They should be putting some pretty good teams together, along the lines of what Xavier has done. But they haven't been to the dance since 2008-2009 and don't look like they're going this year either. They've made it past the first round once in the last 2 decades. They haven't made the Sweet 16 since 1984. If they have such great fans and resources, why haven't they been able to put at least a Sweet 16 caliber team together over the last 29 years? I get that the off the court (financial and fanbase) factors make them seem like a choice with a lot of potential. But as I've said a couple other times in this thread, I really don't want to be making choices based on potential at this point (unless we're truly forced to). We are in a position of power, and teams without IA football should be trying to win our attention and compete for a coveted spot in this new league. We shouldn't just be saying "Oh ok, well, this team has some potential, so they're in." That sort of logic can potentially sink this league into mid-majordom from the get-go. I don't want potential--I want demonstrated success. It's not like schools that have potential but have not demonstrated success over the last several years (Dayton, SLU, etc.) are going anywhere. Let them win the A-10 a few times and develop a stronger national reputation and brand name. If they do that they'll be invited. If they can't even do that, then we really don't need them in the new league. I'd also just point out that their financials are a little questionable. A lot of schools manipulate that kind of info, for instance adding student fees and such as revenue to offset expenses and making the program look like it breaks even. But if Dayton's basketball revenue is truly $10.4 million and their bball expenses are $3.8 million, they're $6.6 million in the black annually. Where the hell does the rest of that money go? Presumably some of it is being used to fund other non-rev sports, but a school like Georgetown is purportedly funding a ton of non-rev sports with a bball program that's only $900K in the black (yes, there are other subsidies being poured into our other teams, I know). What I'm getting at is, if Dayton's program is making so much money, why aren't they re-investing more in their basketball program? If all that profit is going to their non-rev sports, well hey that's great for Dayton women's tennis, but it doesn't sway me on their men's basketball team. Hell, with that extra $6.6 mill a year they could have hired any coach they wanted when Gregory left. But instead they hired a guy with no head coaching experience because, ya know, his brother was pretty good when he coached down the road. In summary, I'm not dead set against them, but the "potential" argument doesn't do anything for me. Deliver results. If/when you do, we'll call you. Same goes for SLU, or a team like Richmond (to the extent that they're in the conversation). Having a ton of money is great. Being in a big city is great. But those things don't automatically translate into good programs. Prove that you can parlay those competitive advantages into on-court success--then we'll be interested. Again, Shaka coulda bounced right after the FF when he was at his hottest (he had offers), but he chose to sign an extension that put him in the million dollar plus club; VCU ponied up. Unlike Capel and to an extent Grant, who left when the big schools came calling. I think he's there until stupid money comes calling or the bottom falls out. Agree. Both Shaka and Stevens have turned down pretty good offers from a lot of solid high majors--N.C. State, Illinois, Mizzou, Maryland, Oregon, etc. Shaka could have had a lot of high major jobs the last couple years if he wanted them, but he turned them down to stay at VCU. He signed a long extension to stay, and seems to like the idea of building the program up. You'd think that he'd be even more likely to stay if VCU was in the new league with us, a big upgrade from the CAA that would enable him to recruit at a much higher level. There's still no guarantee that he (or Stevens) wouldn't leave if one of the true national powerhouses (Duke, UNC, UK etc) calls, or if some other high major program threw a ridiculous amount of money at them. But they've already pretty clearly demonstrated that a "good" offer from teams like the aforementioned won't do it.
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CAHoya07
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 3,598
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Post by CAHoya07 on Dec 31, 2012 2:57:13 GMT -5
Posted this in the Games of Interest thread, but Dayton lost at USC tonight 63-61 in OT. USC is one of the worst teams from the major conferences, went into the game 4-8. Dayton is now 9-4, with one more game vs. UAB before A-10 play.
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Post by hibbertfor3 on Dec 31, 2012 10:16:15 GMT -5
If we are going with the "what have you done for me lately in the NCAA tourney argument" why not point out Creighton has made it past the first round once in the past 10 years.
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Post by strummer8526 on Dec 31, 2012 10:49:17 GMT -5
If we are going with the "what have you done for me lately in the NCAA tourney argument" why not point out Creighton has made it past the first round once in the past 10 years. Given Georgetown's tournament performance of late, let's not use that standard.
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Post by hibbertfor3 on Dec 31, 2012 11:46:17 GMT -5
[/quote]Given Georgetown's tournament performance of late, let's not use that standard.[/quote]
Some want to use Dayton's lack of NCAA success as a reason they shouldn't be chosen right now. Personally I think that is shortsighted and not even legit considering Creighton's sketchy NCAA track record.
I think a better argument is that Creighton is perceived to be a more successful/stable choice than Dayton and since right now we are fighting perception war they should be the choice.
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Post by lukecu on Dec 31, 2012 12:02:02 GMT -5
I think the person that created the spreadsheet did a great job, but I would like to point out that some of his numbers are wrong...especially in the attendance. And yes I am a Creighton fan.
For example: Butler=6,599 BYU=15,424 Cincinnati=8,069 Connecticut=12,640
Creighton=16,665 (highest of all on list...including C7) Also would never have less than 15,500 because that's how many season ticket holders they have...yes I am favoring Creighton.
Dayton=12,154 Depaul=7,740 Georgetown=11,283 Gonzaga=6,212 Marquette=15,138 Memphis=16,234 Providence=7,883 Seton Hall=6,941 St. Johns=8,428 SLU=7,757 VCU=7,622 Villanova=8,923 Xavier=10,155
And I would like to point out (in favor of Creighton of course) that when the 2nd round NCAA tournament was held in Omaha, they had the second highest attendance behind Louisville and Columbus: 17,051. Shows the support of Omaha.
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Post by HoyasAreHungry on Dec 31, 2012 12:52:48 GMT -5
Creighton should definitely be the choice ahead of Dayton...didn't think that was even a question. Their other sports are strong too. Been to Creighton and their facilities/support are definitely impressive
At least they're taking their time in the invite part in this process.
Really think Gonzaga is a must have along with Butler and X. I could presumably see them waiting on the last two to see how things shake out a bit (ie c'mon memphis put your football in the MAC for god's sake).
We need to make waves. The first 3 are a good start, but the last two need to be really thought out and we need to work with the TV networks to see who they value more
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bmartin
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
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Post by bmartin on Dec 31, 2012 12:52:52 GMT -5
Butler's attendance is limited by the capacity not the lack of fans.
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Post by blark84 on Dec 31, 2012 13:13:55 GMT -5
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gujake
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
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Post by gujake on Dec 31, 2012 17:45:31 GMT -5
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Post by HoyaSaxa86 on Dec 31, 2012 19:18:12 GMT -5
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CAHoya07
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 3,598
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Post by CAHoya07 on Dec 31, 2012 19:22:20 GMT -5
Butler's attendance is limited by the capacity not the lack of fans. Yes. Can't wait to attend a Georgetown conference road game at historic Hinkle Fieldhouse.
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dense
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
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Post by dense on Dec 31, 2012 21:03:04 GMT -5
St. Louis is whopping up on #20 New Mexico, and they have a decent crowd at the game. Looks like Georgetown against a random BE opponent, probably like 8-9K
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Post by HoyaSaxa86 on Dec 31, 2012 21:17:56 GMT -5
Chaifetz Arena is a beautiful facility. It's about 5 years old. Holds about 10.6K SLU would fit in well with the C-7.
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Post by HoyaSaxa86 on Dec 31, 2012 21:18:37 GMT -5
And they have a strange nickname-- the Billikens. They should be considered for that reason alone!!
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Post by reformation on Jan 1, 2013 10:15:18 GMT -5
Other than Gonzaga, the debate about who to add seems a bit irrelevant at this point. Deciding between Creighton, dayton, St. Louis etc will have no impact on how the league is perceived. Gonzaga would be a material addition. What the league lacks is potential top 10/top 5 teams, not a bunch of potential top 20-50 or so schools. I would do whatever we could to add Gonzaga in addition to Butler/Xavier.
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hoyaclap
Century (over 100 posts)
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Post by hoyaclap on Jan 1, 2013 11:12:58 GMT -5
I'm all for basketball metrics and everything, because consistency and winning games will always serve the league well, but I think we may be over emphasizing basketball consistency at the expense building a max television product. The Big East that we previously enjoyed was by far the best basketball conference in the land but we remained vulnerable due to neglecting TV considerations. The Big 10, the wealthiest conference in the nation just poached Rutgers, which is a historical doormat that peaks at mediocrity in revenue sports.
There may be a realistic debate emerging about the feasibility/stability of these new conference structures, and whether increased cable exposure at the expense of on the field/court product is sustainable. But what I'm worried about is that the C7 schools are betting that simply putting the best bball product out alone will sustain this league when recent history calls that into question.
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