thebin
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Post by thebin on Dec 29, 2012 11:25:03 GMT -5
But at the end of the day if the idea is, as some posit, that the way to avoid mid-major status is to add a couple of FBS teams who don't really want to be there, I'm not OK with it. To a certain extent the damage done to the c7 core of BE teams happened 1. when Cuse and Pitt bolted and 2. when we added horrible hoops teams from all over the country in a desperation tv money grab (that was understandable but ultimately a failure.) That damage will not be undone short of ANYTHING save an ACC invite. I think it is folly to worry about preventing something that has already happened in reality. Even if we added Duke and Kansas to our c7 core it would still be viewed by many as a crap league with a few giants. I think the fact that we ever were considered by everyone to be high majors was a historical product and anomaly of an era that isn't coming back again.
Why not add Uconn or Cinci for a few years people keep saying? Mainly because I don't think adding Cinci or Uconn does much to change perceptions of other fans/recruits other than making a bigger joke of their FBS programs and making us look like we're a second rate league even more reverting to current BE hodge podge desperation mode. I think we also should realize that Uconn, etc are currently surely scrambling to get a BE/Mountain West football league together asap and then are going to pray for the ACC to be picked apart for the next 5 years. I just want off of that damn merry go round for good.
So how do we best shape our future now? Get the best damn league we can where all programs are hoops focused and gets us the most tv money- which almost certainly means 12 teams minimum. We agree on getting the best programs available, I guess where I part with some is I don't think we can afford the vanity of stopping at 10 because 11 and 12 are good but not sexy programs even though they show all signs of being much better than the dregs we already have in SH, PC, Depaul. We need to pull the mean team quality up too much to stay with 10 teams.
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TBird41
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Post by TBird41 on Dec 29, 2012 11:25:54 GMT -5
Anytime you use an NIT championship to argue that a program is a quality one, you've already lost
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Dec 29, 2012 11:26:18 GMT -5
Most folks already know the remaining schools in the BE are going to be stuck in a 2nd rate conference.. The C7 wants to be thought of as an elite basketball conference so it's founding members need to step up and play like it in my opinion. So Providence and Seton Hall are going to just get better by magic? Maybe that could be David Blaine's next big trick! If he can pull that off he'll be bigger than Houdini.. KG, If Prov had beaten Brown last night then more than likely that blog post would have never been written. Providence losing helped to highlight poor games by Nova & SH. All the C7 teams don't have to be good right now but they must win the games they're supposed to win to maintain credibility
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Post by vamosalaplaya on Dec 29, 2012 11:47:42 GMT -5
I turned that Providence game off last night with the Friars up by quite a bit and only two minutes to go. I can't believe they lost.
I think the conference has to follow the blueprint of the original Big East and find the best possible teams today, add them, and then sit tight. In 1979 Fordham was only 8 years off a Sweet 16 performance, but they were horrible and they were left out. Holy Cross got an invite (turning it down of course), so did Georgetown, even though they both played in small home courts etc only slightly bigger than Rose Hill.
That speaks to Butler, Xavier, Gonzaga, and then maybe Creighton and VCU. No Dayton or St. Louis . Basically add only teams that have made the NCAA tournament very consistently in the last 5 years. Cream of the crop. Let other teams play their way in.
I am in the camp of being open to adding Memphis and Temple should they be orphaned by the football shuffle. UConn and Cincinnati will find a home in the next two years somewhere in the Big 4 or Big 5. But all that won't play out for a year or two. I mean I would love to see the Big 12 invite Florida State and Clemson, who would leave the ACC in a heartbeat, and then the Big Ten goes after Georgia Tech and Virginia (or perhaps even UConn, or UNC) and watch the ACC implode with Virginia Tech and NC State begging to join the SEC. But that feels like it won't happen for a year or so and therefore the smoke won't settle on whether Temple and Memphis have nowhere to go with football. But I am fine with adding them if they have nowhere to go.
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thebin
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Post by thebin on Dec 29, 2012 12:50:54 GMT -5
The reality is unless they drop fb, which makes a lot of sense for memphis especially, they will have to join up w usf, east carolina, houston, sdsu, smu, etc. If they keep fb, which temple, uconn and cinci certainly must given recent investments in those programs- they then have no interest in a fb-less league. All of their efforts will be on new fb league which will be as good hoops wise as c7 anyway. This whole issue is moot, whether we would accept them or not. If they decide to keep fbs football, they have already voted w their feet not to join c7.
To believe otherwise is to be stuck in the old world where no sane person would think syracuse would make a drastic fb move in direct conflict w the express wishes of jim boeheim.
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hoyaback
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Post by hoyaback on Dec 29, 2012 13:47:35 GMT -5
why do people keep saying the memphis etc. league is going to be as good as our new league in bball??? Cincy and UConn will be leaving within a year or two and while we have three middling bad teams in SH/Provi/Depaul, they are still far and away better than Tulane, Houston, SMU, and whatever other programs get added when we leave(East Carolina for all sports?!). The football schools are going to be left with Memphis, Temple, and a bunch of RPI killers. Its clearly a mid-major conference below ours, the MWC, and even the raided A10.
The NCAA tourney money, the fact that their flagship bball team would be getting more exposure, and the TV revenue all point toward Memphis being ok with splitting their football squad from the rest of their programs. Will it happen? No clue. but its not like Memphis is happy right now.
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thebin
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Post by thebin on Dec 29, 2012 14:11:47 GMT -5
Well you cant just assume uconn and cincy are gone for the purposes of this discussion as we are talking about what they and we do NOW- the next couple of years. Very good chance uconn and cincy have no better offers in short term....so you must assume the be fb leftover league starts w those two plus temple and memphis... That core is certainly enough to put the fb league on par w ours as far as hoops go- which is NOT to say there are not good reasons for us to stay away from it. As for how bad tulane, etc are for hoops, may i remind you that providence lost to a bad ivy last night.
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hoyaback
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Post by hoyaback on Dec 29, 2012 15:55:16 GMT -5
Sure I can assume the big east football conference is going to lose UConn and Cincy soon. I'm sure Aresco, Memphis, Temple, UConn, Cincy, ESPN/NBC etc, the C7 presidents and ADs are all assuming it. is it possible theres no announcement before 2014? sure. But I was under the assumption that this discussion wasn't "for the 2014-2015 bball season only." Going forward the football Big East is literally the old C-USA at this point. Theres a lotta possible things that can change (MWC joining, Boise bailing etc.) but as of now, their hoops league blows. Im guessing you aren't serious about comparing Provi with Tulane so i wont address that.
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thebin
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Post by thebin on Dec 29, 2012 16:11:16 GMT -5
So if you are uconn or cinci, you're feeling great right now? Invite is in the mail? Bologna. You are in a total panic right now that that the invite hasnt come already and you are scrambling to put together the best national fb conference you can. Praying that it will be short term, but knowing nothing for sure.
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kghoya
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Post by kghoya on Dec 29, 2012 16:34:39 GMT -5
DePaul with a not so great showing today. I still give this weeks edge in awfulness to Providence but it's a long season.
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hoyaback
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Post by hoyaback on Dec 29, 2012 20:48:21 GMT -5
Bin - you are arguing both sides here. Correct me if im wrong but - 1. You are against adding UConn/Cincy into our league because they'll leave right away to the ACC and that makes our league look bad. 2. But when evaluating the football+ Big East, you tell us we can't assume Uconn and Cincy will have a landing place and so their league is just as good as ours.
Personally, I don't actually think any of this matters - regardless of whether UConn/Cincy stay, our league will have a much higher average RPI, more recognizable bball programs, more NCAA bids, and will just be a better basketball league.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2012 11:50:55 GMT -5
18,400 showed up for Creighton's home game against Evansville yesterday. Great fan support in Omaha. Creighton won 87-70.
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Post by blark84 on Dec 30, 2012 11:54:50 GMT -5
So I've created a spreadsheet to compare non-football playing members of the Big East with teams being considered for inclusion (and a few others) to see how they stack up. You can view that here: docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0AlfWy6_OYXQRdExSWlMzTm1odDNXalVVNERtWFZRQmc&output=htmlThe following stands out: Although Dayton lacks on the court success, they are an absolute monster off it. Insane revenue and home attendance numbers. They would be in the top 3 or 4 in both categories in a new league. The Catholic 7 schools have been bad in the tournament for the past five years. The best we've had is Villanova, and look where they are at the moment. Xavier and Butler need to keep up their winning ways for the league to maintain (earn?) legitimacy. St. Mary's from the West Coast Conference doesn't belong anywhere near the new conference. They've had limited tournament success recently, but off the court they're on the same page as a MAAC team. Considering their distance from Spokane, WA, even if Gonzaga joins, I doubt we'd see the Gaels. Excluding BYU, which obviously would be a fantastic addition if it weren't for their football baggage, the WCC is chock full of mediocrity. The Zags are a no brainer. In addition to being as consistant as concrete, they are media darlings and play in front of a raucous home crowd every game. If the travel arrangements and game times can be sorted out, it must happen. For a league with long term aspirations, the powers that be should begin looking at Richmond over VCU. How sure are people that Shaka Smart is staying put? How much of a eyeball magnet is VCU? How vital is the Richmond market? Even if the league retains the Big East name, the schools from the midwest will be the ones making waves. A league with Marquette, Xavier, Butler and potentially Creighton, Dayton, and/or Gonzaga means packed houses and good TV. Tack on the Chicago market with DePaul and that is a rock solid division, assuming the league goes to 12 teams with two divisions. It is easily better than whatever the East Division would resemble. St. Louis is the real deal but they look like the odd man out of a 12-team league. Sources: Basketball revenue: www.bizjournals.com/memphis/news/2012/10/11/college-basketball-spending-doesnt.html?appSession=703234656807850&RecordID=&PageID=2&PrevPageID=2&CPIpage=3&CPIsortType=desc&CPIorderBy=Institution_Name&cbJumpTo=2Basketball attendance: www.ncaa.org/wps/wcm/connect/public/ncaa/pdfs/2011/2011+ncaa+mens+basketball+attendance+full+reportTournament Results: ESPN & Wikipedia
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turbohoya
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Post by turbohoya on Dec 30, 2012 12:22:24 GMT -5
This is great work Blark
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Post by HoyasAreHungry on Dec 30, 2012 12:29:32 GMT -5
So I've created a spreadsheet to compare non-football playing members of the Big East with teams being considered for inclusion (and a few others) to see how they stack up. You can view that here: docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0AlfWy6_OYXQRdExSWlMzTm1odDNXalVVNERtWFZRQmc&output=htmlThe following stands out: Although Dayton lacks on the court success, they are an absolute monster off it. Insane revenue and home attendance numbers. They would be in the top 3 or 4 in both categories in a new league. The Catholic 7 schools have been bad in the tournament for the past five years. The best we've had is Villanova, and look where they are at the moment. Xavier and Butler need to keep up their winning ways for the league to maintain (earn?) legitimacy. St. Mary's from the West Coast Conference doesn't belong anywhere near the new conference. They've had limited tournament success recently, but off the court they're on the same page as a MAAC team. Considering their distance from Spokane, WA, even if Gonzaga joins, I doubt we'd see the Gaels. Excluding BYU, which obviously would be a fantastic addition if it weren't for their football baggage, the WCC is chock full of mediocrity. The Zags are a no brainer. In addition to being as consistant as concrete, they are media darlings and play in front of a raucous home crowd every game. If the travel arrangements and game times can be sorted out, it must happen. For a league with long term aspirations, the powers that be should begin looking at Richmond over VCU. How sure are people that Shaka Smart is staying put? How much of a eyeball magnet is VCU? How vital is the Richmond market? Even if the league retains the Big East name, the schools from the midwest will be the ones making waves. A league with Marquette, Xavier, Butler and potentially Creighton, Dayton, and/or Gonzaga means packed houses and good TV. Tack on the Chicago market with DePaul and that is a rock solid division, assuming the league goes to 12 teams with two divisions. It is easily better than whatever the East Division would resemble. St. Louis is the real deal but they look like the odd man out of a 12-team league. Sources: Basketball revenue: www.bizjournals.com/memphis/news/2012/10/11/college-basketball-spending-doesnt.html?appSession=703234656807850&RecordID=&PageID=2&PrevPageID=2&CPIpage=3&CPIsortType=desc&CPIorderBy=Institution_Name&cbJumpTo=2Basketball attendance: www.ncaa.org/wps/wcm/connect/public/ncaa/pdfs/2011/2011+ncaa+mens+basketball+attendance+full+reportTournament Results: ESPN & Wikipedia great post bclark! Gonzaga needs to be top priority with X and Butler. Still holding out hope we can get Memphis somehow
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2012 12:52:20 GMT -5
Thanks for putting the data together Blark,
It definately looks like St Mary's should be dropped from the discussion. Not that many people included them anyway.
Dayton is huge off the court. (revenue & Attendance wise). Just not sure that will ever translate into more on the court success. It must be somewhat difficult to recruit there with other programs nearby (Ohio State, Cincinnati and Xavier) that have enjoyed greater Bball success.
We do need to invite Xavier, Butler and Gonzaga today.
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thebin
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Post by thebin on Dec 30, 2012 13:07:37 GMT -5
Lets put the st marys notion officially to bed. It never made sense to me that 1. gonzaga would insist specifically on their inclusion or why 2. Gonzaga would dare make any silly demand when the offer of their inclusion is a gift they couldnt possibly decline. And why would they risk exclusion? To shorten one flight a year (out of a dozen) from 2k to 900 miles?
Im also compelled by the dayton numbers.
Today's dream but realistic scenario: butler, xavier, zags, creighton, dayton. Assuming memphis is keen to retain their fbs fb illusion.
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boxout05
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Post by boxout05 on Dec 30, 2012 13:56:37 GMT -5
If we're going for 12 and don't need SMC, I'd still include VCU over Dayton. I think Dayton, despite the First Four games and support, is in that second tier (with SLU). Also, VCU instead of Dayton breaks into 6 team east and west divisions better. I don't think Memphis would join in the initial wave, but if they want to join after they sort out their football problem, then we should look at Temple first and Dayton second to make it 14.
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thebin
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Post by thebin on Dec 30, 2012 14:06:25 GMT -5
No reason to go to 14. That is too large for an all sports league. It is not as if we are trying to get to an fbs conference championship number.
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Post by njredman on Dec 30, 2012 18:28:03 GMT -5
DELETED. You were warned previously not to repost this.
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