thebin
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Post by thebin on Jan 1, 2013 11:24:14 GMT -5
I'm all for basketball metrics and everything, because consistency and winning games will always serve the league well, but I think we may be over emphasizing basketball consistency at the expense building a max television product. The Big East that we previously enjoyed was by far the best basketball conference in the land but we remained vulnerable due to neglecting TV considerations. The Big 10, the wealthiest conference in the nation just poached Rutgers, which is a historical doormat that peaks at mediocrity in revenue sports. There may be a realistic debate emerging about the feasibility/stability of these new conference structures, and whether increased cable exposure at the expense of on the field/court product is sustainable. But what I'm worried about is that the C7 schools are betting that simply putting the best bball product out alone will sustain this league when recent history calls that into question. How did we neglect tv considerations? Unless you mean we failed to be a league of large sexy state schools where football was king. As you said, we were the best hoops conference in the country and we were based in the biggest tv markets in the country by far. People need to stop pretending there was something the be could have done other than purge the c7 out of the league in 2002.
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Cambridge
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Canes Pugnaces
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Post by Cambridge on Jan 2, 2013 10:16:14 GMT -5
Again, Shaka coulda bounced right after the FF when he was at his hottest (he had offers), but he chose to sign an extension that put him in the million dollar plus club; VCU ponied up. Unlike Capel and to an extent Grant, who left when the big schools came calling. I think he's there until stupid money comes calling or the bottom falls out. I've posted this before and I'll say it again: Siegel (the big donor for whom the Siegel Center is named) has said he will pony up whatever it takes to keep Shaka in town. I don't think he's going anywhere unless a ridiculous spot opens up.
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IDenj
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
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Post by IDenj on Jan 2, 2013 11:17:41 GMT -5
Like the UCLA job?
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Post by HoyaSinceBirth on Jan 2, 2013 11:32:02 GMT -5
Howland won't be fired. I think UCLA has turned the corner. I think they're definitely an NCAA tournament team and that'll be enough to keep his job.
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GUMBA
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Post by GUMBA on Jan 2, 2013 11:46:21 GMT -5
I don't think this is about pretending that the C7 schools had any other choice but to get out of the old Big East while the getting was still good. The reality of big time college athletics today - football AND basketball - is that money from TV contracts makes programs more competitive. TV money lets you hire and retain a top level coaching staff. TV money lets you invest in facilities. TV money lets the university fund other sports. And exposure on TV and success on the court grows alumni donations and increases applications to the school.
TV money is not a panacea by any means. There are plenty of well funded programs from power conferences that go nowhere. They lack tradition, fan support, continuity or get tripped up by unsavory practices that lead to sanctions. Schools like Gonzaga and Butler have shown that there is another path to success when the exposure and TV dollars are hard to come by. Yet their approach is not the road well travelled. Those programs need to hire and keep great young coaches. They need to find undervalued "diamond in the rough" players. And they need rabid local fan bases that love the game of college basketball.
JTIII said at the open practice this year that he wasn't sure if breaking away from the traditional Big East model was the best approach given the TV exposure and attendance that the big schools bring to the table. After the C7 anounced their intention to break away from the FBS schools he said that the new approach would be basketball driven and not driven by religious affiliation. That could mean accepting schools like Butler but it also could mean inviting larger public schools like VCU to join the league.
The philosophical divide on this board has been along the lines of those fans who despise the traitorous football schools (big universities) and want an all or mostly Catholic basketball-focused league and those fans who think the big schools should be tolerated - past, present and future - for what they brought or could bring to the table (TV markets, large fan bases, attendance at games/tournaments, etc.). Those in the first camp want Xavier, Dayton, Creighton, possibly Gonzaga or St. Louis and may hold their nose to accept Butler (catholic but not Catholic). Those in the second camp want good additions like Xavier, Butler and Gonzaga but hold out hopes for some publics like VCU (to be spurned in 2020 when they have a real football program?) UMASS or heaven forbid Memphis, Cincy, UCONN or Temple for the time being or until the ACC invite finally comes in the mail.
The original Big East was designed around TV markets and a hybrid model of smaller private schools and larger State Universities with solid basketball programs. The current C7 still have a number of strong TV designated market areas - DMAs - (NY/NJ 1, Philly 4, Chicago 3, DC 8, Milwaukee 34, Providence 56). Only three of those C7 schools have shown real signs of recent success on the court. The additions could come from St. Louis 21, Indianapolis 26, Cincinnati 35, Dayton 63, Spokane 73 or Omaha 75. Those new schools don't necessarily dominate those TV DMAs but the argument still works for negotiating TV contracts and in terms of the potential market reach for a new conference.
The argument for retaining or reinviting UCONN, Memphis, Cincy and Temple or extending invites to the likes of VCU and UMASS is that they bring the Philly 4, Boston 7, Hartford 30, Cincinnati 35, Memphis 49 and Richmond 57 TV markets along with their strong fan bases.
The reported $3M TV deal figure may be real or may be an illusion. We don't know yet. What we do know is that the music has not stopped playing yet in conference realignment. Today it looks like UCONN, Cincinnati, Memphis and USF are screwed. History shows that the FBS schools won't drop down to FCS, future concusion lawsuits be damned! So it looks like they will be forced to merge with Conference USA programs to create a decent but weaker overall football and basketball conference. But if tomorrow the SEC and BIG 10 raid the best of the ACC, those schools might be invited to join the ACC and what could be a strong basketball conference - depnding on who is left.
So the purists (puritans) don't want to be spurned again by the likes of the public Us. They are once or mutlitple times bitten, twice or thrice shy. The "We won't get fooled again" crowd wants a strong OOC schedule, the best of the remaining privates to join a small 10 or 12 team max conference. The crowds will be smaller for sure but we don't like opposing fans in the phone booth anyways. We have taken control of our own future and it doesn't have the name of any state in it.
The hybrid seekers don't mind using them and the old model in the near term while the money is still good and the basketball schools are in the majority/drivers seat. "Why not?" they say. If this is all about money, take it while you can and put the strongest basketball product on the market to the highest bidder. It helped us in the past, why not keeping milking the cow?
I am not convinced that any of it matters so longs as ABC/ESPN is in charge of what college sports we watch and when we watch them. Competition from FOX and NBC is good but an increasingly fragmented market is inevitable. So called "over the top" on-line viewing or cord cutting is starting to impact the sports TV market. Viewers are moving to mobile devices, iPads, mobile phones and laptops and taking an ala carte approach to buying or stealing content. Live sports (like college football and basketball) is still the one sure way to get viewers and advertising dollars. Yet the future may prove more difficult for advertisers and programs alike. I can see the NCAA tournament moving to 96 teams. I can see the FBS playoffs moving to 8 or 16 teams. I can see large state schools nobody considers a powerhouse today making waves in both football and basketball in the not to distant future.
One thing is for certain. Georgetown needs to stay relevant by cultivating and dominating the Washington, D.C. college basketball market.
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Post by xudash on Jan 2, 2013 15:13:08 GMT -5
"Butler's attendance is limited by the capacity not the lack of fans."
This isn't true. Hinkle's existing capacity presently is in excess of 10k. Butler has averaged below 8K; actually closer to 7k in recent seasons up to this season.
As I understand it, Butler is attempting to raise money to renovate Hinkle (which needs it). That renovation will take capacity down to 8,500 (chairs instead of benches, etc.).
I believe Butler should be a part of this thing. I also believe they can get their fan support up with a better home slate (i.e. those 7k'ish figures were mostly driven by a horrid Horizon schedule).
If their leadership believes the number should be 8.5k coupled with what most likely will be higher ticket price packages, then that's where we'll all be with respect to Butler's fan base.
The bottom line is that Butler has room for improvement when it comes to home attendance. I make that statement, considering what we want this conference to become in terms of achieving its full potential, including large, full houses for games, not based on some existing comparison that suggests that 7k and change in attendance is "adequate."
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Post by vamosalaplaya on Jan 2, 2013 15:46:19 GMT -5
GUMBA, I don't think anyone is saying don't invite Butler. I think everyone is saying invite Xavier and Butler and Gonzaga if the math works.
The disagreement comes on stuff like whether to go to 12 immediately by inviting schools like Creighton, Dayton or VCU, include schools like Temple and Memphis down the road of the Big East implodes and their football teams get parked elsewhere, or whatever. The argument is over schools that are further down the "success in the last ten years of hoops" continuum from Xavier and Butler, as well as whether to work with FBS football schools (Temple, Memphis, UConn) who bring major hoops chops to the table but who can't find a big conference home for football and may look to lead with hoops.
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Post by HoyasAreHungry on Jan 2, 2013 15:58:35 GMT -5
"Butler's attendance is limited by the capacity not the lack of fans." This isn't true. Hinkle's existing capacity presently is in excess of 10k. Butler has averaged below 8K; actually closer to 7k in recent seasons up to this season. As I understand it, Butler is attempting to raise money to renovate Hinkle (which needs it). That renovation will take capacity down to 8,500 (chairs instead of benches, etc.). I believe Butler should be a part of this thing. I also believe they can get their fan support up with a better home slate (i.e. those 7k'ish figures were mostly driven by a horrid Horizon schedule). If their leadership believes the number should be 8.5k coupled with what most likely will be higher ticket price packages, then that's where we'll all be with respect to Butler's fan base. The bottom line is that Butler has room for improvement when it comes to home attendance. I make that statement, considering what we want this conference to become in terms of achieving its full potential, including large, full houses for games, not based on some existing comparison that suggests that 7k and change in attendance is "adequate." Definitely important to set attendance requirements (ie playing in stadiums that hold a certain amount). I forget what the BE's standard was but i do recall there was one.... Also important to set requirements for the rest of sports too as the BE had done about fully funding all sports that you compete in. Will help build notoriety for the league as a whole in all sports. I'm sure the BE is considering this already and making sure everyone is all in in terms of creating the best conference possible
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thebin
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Post by thebin on Jan 2, 2013 16:17:18 GMT -5
Given that we don't have a facility capable of hosting real d1 games and that our attendance at our expensive NBA rental has historically been fickle and tied to traveling fan bases such as WVU, Pitt and Cuse to some degree, we might want to chill a bit about throwing around demands of very good programs with facilities that all look like the Roman Colosseum compared to McDonough. Also not sure how many of the C7 non-revenue teams are all that great. Seems to me ND & Uconn did really well in those areas.
I think some people are yet to fully grasp that we are not going to be in most ways a "high major" conference other than hopefully in basketball on-the-court results, and it does us no favors to pretend we are Mr. Big Shot and it is 1984 all over again. In terms of facilities, attendance, non-hoops teams, etc....not only is it not 1984, it is not even 2002 before BC began this nightmare. Let's say Butler or Xavier have some not-fully funded field hockey team- are we really in any position to care? Or Butler "only" gets around 7k a game which is about 1500 less than what we get when we play the c7 teams for the most part? What exactly are we prepared to do about it? If Butler and Xavier are not in, this thing is dead in the water.
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Post by reformation on Jan 2, 2013 16:36:17 GMT -5
"Butler's attendance is limited by the capacity not the lack of fans." This isn't true. Hinkle's existing capacity presently is in excess of 10k. Butler has averaged below 8K; actually closer to 7k in recent seasons up to this season. As I understand it, Butler is attempting to raise money to renovate Hinkle (which needs it). That renovation will take capacity down to 8,500 (chairs instead of benches, etc.). I believe Butler should be a part of this thing. I also believe they can get their fan support up with a better home slate (i.e. those 7k'ish figures were mostly driven by a horrid Horizon schedule). If their leadership believes the number should be 8.5k coupled with what most likely will be higher ticket price packages, then that's where we'll all be with respect to Butler's fan base. The bottom line is that Butler has room for improvement when it comes to home attendance. I make that statement, considering what we want this conference to become in terms of achieving its full potential, including large, full houses for games, not based on some existing comparison that suggests that 7k and change in attendance is "adequate." Definitely important to set attendance requirements (ie playing in stadiums that hold a certain amount). I forget what the BE's standard was but i do recall there was one.... Also important to set requirements for the rest of sports too as the BE had done about fully funding all sports that you compete in. Will help build notoriety for the league as a whole in all sports. I'm sure the BE is considering this already and making sure everyone is all in in terms of creating the best conference possible I guess we have to be careful re: setting min size req's for stadiums and adding too many other sports req's because both of these could work uniquely against Gtwn. The min size stadium req would limit our ability to use McDonough when it makes sense. Also regarding other sports, we might be saddling good programs at Gtwn to a very weak league for other sports except maybe for men's soccer. In Men's & women's lax for instance the C7 league is very bad for men and not viable for women. It will not be a draw for recruits and we'd probably be better offf elsewhere. While I think we can make a good case that the new league will be high major for men's BB, its pretty much a mid major for everything else.
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Post by HoyasAreHungry on Jan 2, 2013 16:42:03 GMT -5
Definitely important to set attendance requirements (ie playing in stadiums that hold a certain amount). I forget what the BE's standard was but i do recall there was one.... Also important to set requirements for the rest of sports too as the BE had done about fully funding all sports that you compete in. Will help build notoriety for the league as a whole in all sports. I'm sure the BE is considering this already and making sure everyone is all in in terms of creating the best conference possible I guess we have to be careful re: setting min size req's for stadiums and adding too many other sports req's because both of these could work uniquely against Gtwn. The min size stadium req would limit our ability to use McDonough when it makes sense. Also regarding other sports, we might be saddling good programs at Gtwn to a very weak league for other sports except maybe for men's soccer. In Men's & women's lax for instance the C7 league is very bad for men and not viable for women. It will not be a draw for recruits and we'd probably be better offf elsewhere. While I think we can make a good case that the new league will be high major for men's BB, its pretty much a mid major for everything else. very fair point. My interest admittedly is soccer and basketball ;D The requirements have worked very well though and had a positive effect on the other sports. I know for a fact when soccer got fully funded, there's been a noticeable upward trend. This years results a good culmination of the trend. Making requirements like this will strengthen all the schools in the league and grow its profile. The extra TV revenue from bball will help with this. The requirements are already in place in the BE and I think they've benefited georgetown just fine. For example the attendance requirements only apply to league games. We can still play OOC games at McD (as we've been doing already). I'm not proposing anything that's not in place already. The requirements are all about "commitment" of the universities to athletics. They need to be willing to commit the resources for continued success.
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Post by reformation on Jan 2, 2013 17:01:06 GMT -5
I agree that if we compete in the league for a given sport we shld make sure that there are some competitiveness reqs. My point is thatwe may or may not want to compete in the league across all sports given the limited resources that a lot of these schools have to fund/recruit in many sports.
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thebin
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Post by thebin on Jan 2, 2013 17:09:33 GMT -5
To my mind the best thing for the non-revenue sports is getting in the best basketball league period. And I'm not one of those posters that doesn't give a toss about the non-revenue teams. I'm an alum before a hoops fan and I understand we need a healthy Athletic department, not just basketball. But we're in pretty dangerous waters here and first order priorities are the only ones we can afford to consider at this time. If we allow non-revenue concerns to make the basketball group worse (for example vetoing a hoops no-brainer like Xavier or Butler because of bad soccer) then that will literally be much worse in the long run for those non-revenue programs than having to play some non-competitive teams they will routinely pound. Whatever is best for men's basketball literally is also best for field hockey, softball, and men's diving as far as I can see. The non-revenue sports will benefit from a great hoops league that can command tv money and national recognition. That is the first order priority and everything else should be subservient so far as basic issues such as travel are accounted for. ( I think Gonzaga must be hoops only for example.)
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Post by HoyasAreHungry on Jan 2, 2013 17:18:54 GMT -5
I don't think anyone is advocating vetoing any of the no brainer hoops schools....I'm pretty sure all of these schools already fulfill the attendance requirements for example. (I think it's only something like 6K). I think you are making the same point that I meant to make. The best BBall conference means the best TV contract. I don't think that commitment requirements are deal breakers for any of the schools we are considering. It does keep some of the bottom feeders (*cough depaul, seton hall*) from cutting funding. Of course the best hoops league is the first priority. This is what allows us and the other schools to fund the rest of the sports. Assuming we get the TV deal we think we can...this allows us and the rest of the schools to better the rest of the AD. The schools we're adding have never had the revenue that they will be looking at now. This is going to help them grow. We've beat this point of getting the best bball into the ground; that goes without saying. It doesn't hurt to make sure the league is set up to succeed elsewhere as well.
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RBHoya
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Post by RBHoya on Jan 2, 2013 17:32:06 GMT -5
"Butler's attendance is limited by the capacity not the lack of fans." This isn't true. Hinkle's existing capacity presently is in excess of 10k. Butler has averaged below 8K; actually closer to 7k in recent seasons up to this season. As I understand it, Butler is attempting to raise money to renovate Hinkle (which needs it). That renovation will take capacity down to 8,500 (chairs instead of benches, etc.). I believe Butler should be a part of this thing. I also believe they can get their fan support up with a better home slate (i.e. those 7k'ish figures were mostly driven by a horrid Horizon schedule). If their leadership believes the number should be 8.5k coupled with what most likely will be higher ticket price packages, then that's where we'll all be with respect to Butler's fan base. The bottom line is that Butler has room for improvement when it comes to home attendance. I make that statement, considering what we want this conference to become in terms of achieving its full potential, including large, full houses for games, not based on some existing comparison that suggests that 7k and change in attendance is "adequate." xudash, what are your thoughts on Dayton? I'm guessing you have a better handle on their program than most of us. Their attendance and financials are strong, but it hasn't yielded much on the court. They seem to be mentioned in a lot of the chatter coming from reporters, though.
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Post by xudash on Jan 2, 2013 18:23:44 GMT -5
"Butler's attendance is limited by the capacity not the lack of fans." This isn't true. Hinkle's existing capacity presently is in excess of 10k. Butler has averaged below 8K; actually closer to 7k in recent seasons up to this season. As I understand it, Butler is attempting to raise money to renovate Hinkle (which needs it). That renovation will take capacity down to 8,500 (chairs instead of benches, etc.). I believe Butler should be a part of this thing. I also believe they can get their fan support up with a better home slate (i.e. those 7k'ish figures were mostly driven by a horrid Horizon schedule). If their leadership believes the number should be 8.5k coupled with what most likely will be higher ticket price packages, then that's where we'll all be with respect to Butler's fan base. The bottom line is that Butler has room for improvement when it comes to home attendance. I make that statement, considering what we want this conference to become in terms of achieving its full potential, including large, full houses for games, not based on some existing comparison that suggests that 7k and change in attendance is "adequate." xudash, what are your thoughts on Dayton? I'm guessing you have a better handle on their program than most of us. Their attendance and financials are strong, but it hasn't yielded much on the court. They seem to be mentioned in a lot of the chatter coming from reporters, though. We have a rivalry with them, but I'll offer objective input about them (i.e. they're hung up with being our little brother and their fans can be insufferable, but so be it). UD was a player in the 60's and 70's. UD Arena was built in '69; absolutely state-of-the-art at the time. I believe they made the final game of the NCAA Tournament against UCLA in '68, or something like that. They won an NIT when it still mattered. We beat them in the '58 NIT when it still mattered to some degree. The point is that UD has tradition and history and you still see that reflected in its rather avid fanbase to this day. Beyond the 70's, UD made some bad coaching decisions that really set them back. In more recent times, they hired Oliver Purnell, who turned things around, but left for South Carolina, and more recently Brian Gregory, a Tom Izzo protege who left for Georgia Tech. Gregory was a good ambassador for the school, but not very effective. The fans were calling for his head before he made the move to Atlanta. They now have Archie Miller (Sean's brother; go figure). Archie will turn them around, then he'll be off to greener pastures. UD is a very solid institution academically. It has invested in all its sports programs. As you know, basketball is its flagship, and UD has no problem putting 12k+ in the seats in UD Arena on a snowy night in January against Northeast Southwest Technical College, whether UD has a winning record at that point or not. Long story short, they have all the necessary program elements to succeed. There is no doubt about that. Archie has to keep recruiting and prove himself as an in-game coach. I expect them to get back to a level where they're positioned for NCAA participation. Having offered that, assuming the new conference leadership isn't shy about geographic expansion and that Omaha leads to a more accretive contract than what Dayton can provide, I would personally take Creighton over Dayton in a heartbeat. Jesuits over Marianists anytime.
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Post by xudash on Jan 2, 2013 19:52:07 GMT -5
Quick comments about Olympic Sports:
X's Men's Soccer is now an NCAA caliber program. They beat Kentucky in the first round and lost to eventual champion IU in the most recent NCAA soccer tournament.
I think I shared this already, but Xavier just completed a 7-digit golf facility for its men's and women's golf teams at a private club in Cincy. The men's team already is participating at the NCAA tournament level. Can't speak for the women's team.
Tennis is strong. Baseball made the NCAA Tournament.
Women's hoops should come back to where it was very recently under its new coach; X blew a F4 appearance when it missed a late-game bunny against Stanford a few years ago.
Those are examples. Mike Bobinski is an excellent AD. He has his stamp on the entire athletic program there.
I know I've shared some of this already, but thought I would alleviate some of the concerns expressed here, having to do with "can they add more than just basketball to this thing?" Just know that X can and will do what it needs to do to fulfill its commitment to the new conference.
I can't speak for Butler on this topic in any detail, but keep in mind that Butler has Hinkle, not the Cintas Center. We have a cash register in Cincinnati. Butler has about 7k in attendance in bleacher seats and that's about it, at least until they renovate. Butler probably has enough demand elasticity to get to their planned 8.5k capacity, assuming they keep Stevens, benefit from the improved home slate, keep winning, and don't get carried away with their pricing. Just keep in mind that they probably aren't going to be able to put suites, etc. in the renovated footprint; gate receipts with some amount of seat licensing with 8.5k capacity probably constitutes their traffic revenue ceiling. Their gate revenue stream will be something to keep an eye on. Hinkle is Hinkle: it's a National Historic Landmark with some interesting history, but it's old, and renovation options are limited due to the NHL designation.
Otherwise, with respect to the expense side, they still support football at some level. I imagine that doesn't create a large drain, but it certainly requires some expense.
Perhaps one of the Butler guys visiting here can shed some light on this topic.
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Post by lukecu on Jan 3, 2013 2:01:17 GMT -5
if anyone wants information on creighton feel free to ask me. I know pretty much everything about them in all sports!
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nathanhm
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Post by nathanhm on Jan 3, 2013 7:53:57 GMT -5
if anyone wants information on creighton feel free to ask me. I know pretty much everything about them in all sports! So give us the lowdown on Creighton!
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calhoya
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Post by calhoya on Jan 3, 2013 8:17:20 GMT -5
I know that they have a great soccer program and historically a solid basketball program that puts bodies in the seats. Surprisingly, they appear to have alumni located throughout the West, as well.
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