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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Apr 26, 2024 13:34:20 GMT -5
Universities now cannot sign contracts with players because--even though it's a charade--the guys are student-athletes attending universities. They are not employees and they are not paid by their university (on paper). So, there is no basis on which to make a contract. If universities paid players directly, it would be a different story, but I imagine that raises a whole host of other issues.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Apr 26, 2024 13:30:02 GMT -5
It’s kinda of a hoyaboya spin to slightly exaggerate a player who played the most minutes on the team but only totaled 26 assists for the season. He managed to rack up 49 turnovers which means his assist to turnover ration was horrid. He deserves credit for rebounding and blocking shots and hitting a healthy percentage of his shots. But he deserves some scorn for being so passive in far too many BE games when the team needed his scoring contributions. By the end of the season my mindset was that I wanted Styles eating up as few of Drew McKenna’s minutes as possible, and this was without McKenna having yet to play one minute of college ball. Would have been nice to have kept Styles around but I think the Hoyas have potential other “productive players” at their disposal. The “grass is greener” approach… Looking at NC St for a quick second, their coach is sticking to his FF formula of reloading with upperclassmen from the portal. DS fits that strategy. As of now, they have just two freshmen coming in. NC St only has one scholarship available. I do not argue with you at all that the approach worked for NC State this past season. BUT, I really don't think that approach is easy to replicate. Keep in mind that NC State was NOT an at large team, and only was in the tournament at all because of their winning the ACC tournament. And then they won a series of games where they weren't the favorite. This would be like saying that Georgetown should have stuck to Ewing's strategy in 2021 because he won the BET. A fluky performance is fun for fans, but it's an outlier. Of course, being in a Final Four gets you a lot of attention and makes it easier to recruit. So let's see if perhaps Keatts can repeat.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Apr 26, 2024 13:27:52 GMT -5
Absolute travesty what happened to Seton Hall by the NCAA selection committee and that imbecile Dr Charles McCleeland. And then Silent Val Ackerman, oh well try to figure out what we did wrong. Well guess what Val. That Seton Hall team has been dismantled by the portal and NIL. Never got the chance to show how good they were. I think Kadary Richmond having to leave Seton Hall because of NIL (if that is true) is a great symbol of why NIL and free transfers are destroying college basketball and the things that are good about it. But this take is absurd. If Seton Hall had made the tournament, this would have likely happened anyway. And if Val Ackerman had been a loud mouth, Seton Hall would have still been outside the tournament, and Kadary Richmond would have still transferred. You just like criticizing Ackerman whenever you get the chance, even if it makes absolutely no sense, like now.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Apr 25, 2024 18:45:03 GMT -5
If only a Georgetown leader could’ve been involved at a senior NCAA policy making level and had the chance to put things on a better track. The fact that Jack DeGioia was involved in this at the NCAA level is likely part of the reason why it's a disaster.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Apr 25, 2024 18:43:24 GMT -5
Neither of these programs has the "resources" Gtown & other programs have. Their boards are upset but understand what their coaches are up against But when a Georgetown player like Styles leaves for more NIL, that's not acceptable because we have a boatload of cash? I get it. There will always be an excuse to paint things in a negative light.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Apr 25, 2024 18:38:20 GMT -5
Coaches do have agency in the relationship, that's the point I'm driving at. To make this about the players alone is wrong IMHO... You've liked recent posts where the main point of the post is to say no player is safe when you're bad & how the staff has to upgrade the talent in order to improve. If we're being honest I'm sure some of these players who've opted to leave are asking about "loyalty" too, seeing that they chose to come to Gtown despite the bad run they're on. There are close to 2000 kids in the portal right now, we all know they are not all there voluntarily. I agree coaches have agency. And I am sure that there are kids who sit down with their coach, and it's made clear that they aren't going to get playing time. And then they leave. That's always been true, but it's probably easier to have that conversation now with guys when they can leave immediately and play, than years ago when that same conversastion would yield the kid being unhappy and stuck if he didn't want to sit. But if you took a poll of coaches, I bet there would be an overwhelming majority saying the current system stinks and needs to be changed. And I bet some players probably feel that way too. The new rules are making the game less fun for everyone involved. Again, in saying players lack loyalty, I am saying that as a negative reflection of the current college basketball athletes. The reason players are moving around so much is because the system allows them to easily do it, and it allows some of them to get handsomely paid at the same time. That is why guys like Kadary Richmond are leaving a school like Seton Hall. Why wouldn't he? He will be in high demand, he'll likely get a boatload of money, and he might even get on a better team than Seton Hall. The human element of all this is what it is for both the coaches and players. They will do what the system incentivizes and rewards. Players and coaches are no less or more selfish than they were 10 years ago. The difference now is that players can act selfishly and get paid, and immediately play basketball. So they do it. 10 years ago they could not do either one. That's why things are different, and why it's many of the appealing aspects the college game (though admittedly getting some kids some amount of wealth). As others have said, I think the ultimate answer is contracts with buyouts or other mechanisms to instill some stability. Players deserve to get paid, but with that money should come their own obligations and responsibilities. Same as coaches (for example, Nate Oates likely couldn't have moved to Kentcuky even if he wanted given the buy out--tough luck if he had wanted to do that). In my mind, those obligations should, at the option of school/player include multi-year contracts that are enforceable.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Apr 25, 2024 16:54:17 GMT -5
Name a Big East coach that has coached at 3 separate schools in 5 years. Is five years your only standard for loyalty 2003? In all seriousness, this issue of loyalty extends to the coaching staff(s) as well. Remember Malcom & Tim? My comment was that players no longer have loyalty. This discussion was about players, not coaches. The two situations aren't analagous. Currently, players literally have nothing tying them to a university. They can leave on a whim. Coaches do not have that luxury. They sign contracts (and yes, many paid handsomely). When they underperform, they are fired. And yes, when they do really well at lower-level programs, they often move to better programs. Just as players now transfer to better schools. I do not blame them at all for that. The problem in your reasoning is that you are viewing my statement that players have no loyalty to universities as a pejorative or negative. I don't blame players or coaches for seeking out better opportunties or more money if they can get it. All the more power to them, they are operating within the system they have. That said, for the most part, most of the Big East coaches have been at jobs for a long time. And some of them ended their tenures because they were either fired or run off because of dissatisfacton (like Shaka Smart). Rick Pitino was at Louisville for 16 seasons before getting fired. Sure, he was only at Iona for three seasons, but everybody knew going in he was using it as a stepping stone, including Iona. Ed Cooley was at Providence for 12 years before leaving despite other offers to go elsewhere. Greg McDermott has been at Creighton for 14 seasons. Even Hurley has now been at Connecticut for 6 years, and Rhode Island before that for 6 years. And Shaka Smart stayed at both VCU and Texas for 6 seasons. Sean Miller was at Arizona 12 years before being dismissed. And on the bookends he was at Xavier 5 years, and now two more. Matta was at Ohio State for thirteen years before being forced out. If you want to compare the two, go ahead. But it's not proving the point you think it's proving. And there are few examples of coaches jumping from school to school like these guys in the portal are for one big reason--they are bound by contracts, and any coach who jumped around that much would be seen as unsteady. (As far as Ighoefe, I said at the time I thought it was bad form. On Wilson, Ewing basically ran him off into a "manager" until a scholarship opened up. I thought that was horrible and said so at the time. Then he graduated. We have no idea if Cooley wanted to retain him, but he had graduated and was a 4 year player. I certainly consider him loyal, and had he wanted to stay for this year, I would have welcomed him. We certainly had enough roster spots.)
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Apr 25, 2024 16:29:23 GMT -5
Players also have little loyalty to a university or coach anymore. After his entry into the portal, Kadary Richmond will now be on his third school. With Posh Alexander's entry into the portal, he'll now be onto his third school. To be fair they are 5th year players (and this will not exist after this year when that last class of COVID-extra eligibilty guys is complete), but still the fact that this is now commonplace is telling. Every coach in the BE has coached at multiple stops but it's the players who don't have any loyalty? Name a Big East coach that has coached at 3 separate schools in 5 years.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Apr 25, 2024 16:06:57 GMT -5
Players also have little loyalty to a university or coach anymore. After his entry into the portal, Kadary Richmond will now be on his third school. With Posh Alexander's entry into the portal, he'll now be onto his third school. To be fair they are 5th year players (and this will not exist after this year when that last class of COVID-extra eligibilty guys is complete), but still the fact that this is now commonplace is telling.
People complain about guys from our 2-19 roster leaving because they were supposed to be part of some "core" that led one of the worst Georgetown teams ever, yet at the same time high level guys like Richmond and Alexander--neither of whom has to worry about playing time--leave anyway.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Apr 25, 2024 15:56:09 GMT -5
Are Seton Hall and Butler boards blowing up at their coaches losing parts of their core?
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Apr 25, 2024 15:54:43 GMT -5
I m also hearing that its not his choice. That sucks. If you want to leave for more money or playing time that's one thing, but I hate the idea of chasing someone off. It might be an old fashion concept in a a NIL world, but if a program commits to a kid there should be a spot for them. If performance declines then you aren't obligated to keep the NIL the same, but there should be a spot for those that want to be Hoyas and we brought to the team. In this new world there are no Tyler Crawfords, Tyler Adams, or Henry Sims. I want to be competitive but what's the point of cheering for a one year rental with no ties to the school? I've been a long term supporter of our program, but I don't know if I can cheer with the same enthusiasm because someone took a jersey out of the laundry and handed it to a kid for 9 months. See my post above. I don't buy this. PS. Lots of posters "hear things." One of the few people who I trust to actually have some inside insights, blueandgray, posted this a while ago, "I believe Rowan saw the writing on the wall….and yes, we did lallow him to walk." This makes me think that while the program would have loved to have him, we let him go because of recruiting Mack/not meeting NIL demands. But I could be wrong.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Apr 25, 2024 15:45:37 GMT -5
Of course it is his choice. He is a duly enrolled student and Ed Cooley can't kick him out of school. Too many athletes lose sight of the fact that once they are in, they can finish their college education without any obligation from a coach. And like (almost) all his teammates, he's not playing in the NBA. The long term educational and networking opportunities of Georgetown far outweigh an annual trip to the transfer portal. But, he cant play basketball and thats obviously what he wants to do. That doesn't mean he has no choice to stay. It just means he has a choice he dislikes more than the other options he figures will be on the table. But he's got a choice. There is no right to play basketball. I also don't buy that it's "not his choice" for an additional reason. Putting aside chemistry/personality issues that we have little insight into, why wouldn't want Cooley want somebody like Brumbaugh on the bench? Heck, if this was 2015, and Cooley landed someone like Mack, that's in all likelihood what would have happened. I'd certainly love to have Brumbaugh backing up Mack. But the reality is that in 2024, guys who have skills can get NIL money and more playing time by moving, and that's what most of these kids want. And in Styles' case, unofficial reports seem to indicate Styles' choice was based on NC State offering more money. I am pretty confident Styles would have gotten the playing time he wanted at Georgetown. Did Brumbaugh have the choice to stay at whatever amount of NIL Cooley was comfortable with offering, and with playing time limited by the addition of Malik Mack? Likely. I just think in 2024, guys like Brumbaugh do not view that as a viable option, even though it very much is an option if you don't put all your priorities on playing 30+ minutes and getting a ton of NIL. Now, if somebody actually has inside information and tells me that Georgetown offered him 0 NIL or something like that, we might have a different discussion. But, otherwise, I don't buy it.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Apr 25, 2024 9:19:19 GMT -5
So as of right now (4/25/24, 10:15am) how many players do we have on our roster next year? Definitely: Jayden Epps Drew Fielder Malik Mack Drew McKenna Kayvaun Mulready Micah Peavy Thomas Sorber Caleb Williams Curtis Williams Maybe: Ryan Mutombo So that's either 9 or 10 scholarship players. So 3-4 slots still open. Almost certainly one of those will be a big.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Apr 25, 2024 9:09:43 GMT -5
With the caveat that I wanted to retain Brumbaugh and Cook, there is really little harm in losing part of a core that went 2-18, especially Cook considering that his defense was a major reason why we stunk last year. Now, if the freshman like Sorber and Mulready turn out to be good, and they leave, that would be a very different conversation.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Apr 25, 2024 9:04:49 GMT -5
Bottom line is that with Supreme Cook as our center, our defense at the rim was 362nd of 362 teams in Division. That is really bad. Almost anybody will be an improvement over that because you literally cannot get worse than 362nd out of 362. As I've said, I really like him, and I wish it worked out where he could have stayed, but with the reality of college basketball in 2024, that was unrealistic if Cooley went out and recruited over him--which Cooley had to do if he wanted a better team next year.
It's the off season, and so of course, we are going to discuss things like retention, etc. And like I said, in principle, I do want to retain our guys and we really do need to retain this incoming class. But, if next year the team is substantially better because of the incoming freshman and whoever we get in the portal, at this time next year, few people will care about the fact that Brumbaugh and Cook transferred.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Apr 24, 2024 15:40:51 GMT -5
If this is true, transfers like Akok Akok's, which came in the summer, are no longer permitted.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Apr 24, 2024 15:38:19 GMT -5
More than a few will say it's due to Marquette winning, as opposed to their staff prioritizing the players in the program. Time will tell. Also, exception that proves the rule. Did anyone expect Marquette to have no one in the portal? Exactly. Excluding us and Marquette, there are 9 other Big East teams, 8 of which were better than us, all of whom have had at least one transfer (I think that is right, but tell me if otherwise). It's silly to point to one or two teams with good retention when virtually every other team in high major basketball has had some amount of turnover (and much more than when the transfer rules were much more restrictive). Last year, you could say "Well, Duke has nobody in the portal." This year, they have what, 7 players in the portal. Did Scheyer go from a great coach at retaining players to a horrible one in a single season? Doubtful. What will be interesting long-term is what coaches on average retain more players. What happens to one team in one particular year is not very telling.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Apr 24, 2024 14:32:33 GMT -5
Was there not a collective agreement among the Ivies to not go that route? I guess I am asking if there was a Gentlemen’s Agreement that prevents Harvard from paying players like that. Maybe -- I don't know. I just think that of all the schools, the Ivies could do that. As for the broader discussion, I see both sides. Players deserve to be paid, and they shouldn't be restricted for no benefit. But it's going to kill college basketball. What's fair isn't always what is best across a broader spectrum. Like I said earlier, I hope we see multi-year deals sooner rather than later. Enforceable, multi-year deals are really the only way out of this. Or collective bargaining, which would impose rules regarding movement, etc. In some ways, the NIL free for all is harmful to players, as there are TONS of guys hitting the market every year, and they all want money. If things were staggered, and the supply of available players was smaller, I bet the NIL deals would get bigger, not smaller, because there would be few areas to spend. The issue with NIL is that it's new at the moment, and it's unclear when/if there will be a peak to the amount of NIL available. It's all new now, and a lot of donors are throwing money around. Things will change (a little) once donors see their money being thrown at players who underperform. You are going to have NIL donors who are dissatisfied causing coaching changes, etc. I am sure this is already happening. Being a college basketball (or football) coach right now has to be horrendous from the recruiting perspective. I don't feel bad for them (at least at high major schools) since they make a lot of money. I do feel bad for the mid major type coaches who often do not make a ton of money relative to the amount of work they put it. And they really stand no chance at player retention going forward.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Apr 24, 2024 14:25:46 GMT -5
Can't say that I love this. Cook had his warts, but he worked his @ss off every game, with basically no one to back him up. I gotta assume that the staff has told him that his role would be greatly diminished next season--and I guess that this is the right move for everyone. But I had really hoped that the days of yearly complete roster overhauls were done--yes some players would go in and out, but Cooley would bring stability. Maybe that will still happen starting with this freshmen class, but then again maybe roster stability is impossible in the NIL and free transfers era. Sigh. Some good news about bigs transferring in would soften the blow. I really think this is mixed. I think some level of roster upheaval is going to happen going forward no matter what. It stinks, but until the current NIL/transfer rules change, this will happen every year. Even some programs who have had a lot more success than ours have been killed by waves of transfers this season, like Duke. That said, I do think that once Cooley gets guys in that he recruited from high school and transfers who stick around a bit longer, that retention will be better. And if we win, retention will be better. Winning solves a lot of ills, but not all, as illustrated by all of the successful teams losing tons of players. At best, I think we will get to a point of equilibrium where most rosters lose 3-4 players a year, with variation in both directions depending on the makeup of teams, incoming freshman, and NIL deals. Bad teams, like ours this past year, will almost always see turnover like this, though. The COVID guys having their 5th year to play, like Cook, will be mostly done after this upcoming season too, which may help a bit as the overall talent pool shrinks a bit. The days of mostly-stable rosters are over. Think about this. As recently as 2017-2018, when Ewing came in, the only transfer was Agau. In today's environment, that would be unthinkable. The main thing holding guys in place was a desire NOT to sit out for a year to play. With that gone, and the enticement of money to transfer, things will remain unstable. At some point, something will need to be done about this because it's not good for anybody involved long term, including the players.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Apr 24, 2024 14:21:13 GMT -5
This is not surprising at all, and expected. Like others, I loved that Supreme Cook fought endlessly and always gave an A+ on effort. And he really surprised me and expanded his offensive game as time went by. The problem is that he was abysmal on defense, and was the main reason why our at-rim defense was last in the country in all of Division 1. And this just isn't about stats alone, the eye test showed it too. When Cook played, help defense was non-existent. This type of defense just isn't a feasible way forward.
For us to be a better team, Cook needed to be replaced. And so this is one of those situations where you are sad to see him go, but it's also a reality of winning that if we want to improve our team significantly, he was either going to have to be comfortable playing minimal minutes, or transfer. I do not blame him at all for choosing the latter. And given the dearth of bigs, he might even be able to get some decent NIL money out of it too.
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