the_way
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The Illest
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Post by the_way on Nov 30, 2006 12:04:30 GMT -5
RDF, I have to question you here. We all think the current freshmen have talent, right? They were highly ranked, etc etc. But what have they shown us? Squaddoosh. Macklin can't shoot, Summers can't defend these are flaws that would limit their participation in any offensive system. I'm starting so see you as more of a fan of Pops and Esh's press and run style. But that's just not III's style. We beat Duke and Pitt and OSU last year by having an effective, efficient, organized team. I don't think it's an accident that we haven't won a title since the mid-80s and UCLA got to the final last year. It's that what works in this era is skilled basketball. And this team hasn't developed the skills yet to mesh with returning players (who are also playing like crap). We will likely struggle every year in November under III. Just a given. But we will likely also be very good by the end of each year. And that's what he's playing for. Well, its not about being a fan of Esh/Ronny/JT2's system, its just that this year's team personnel fits that particular system better than the "princetown offense". But from a defensive standpoint, Esh?Ronny/JT2's system won't work because we lack the lateral quickness and speed. Skilled basketball has always worked. Our 1984, 1989, and 1996 tournament teams had a bunch of skilled basketball players. Yes, our players aren't developed skill-wise for the most part. But our skill set,potential and/or active, doesn't match the Princetown offense with this team's personnel. Some adjustments need to be made. They will be made. It seems like III is still experimenting on the court with lineups and combinations, figuring out who is who on the court.
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YB
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Post by YB on Nov 30, 2006 12:08:39 GMT -5
I would mention "Baby Doc" Rivers has been pretty good so far- learning his role, not going outside of himself but doing what the team needs. Pretty cool.
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mrsixer123
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Post by mrsixer123 on Nov 30, 2006 12:27:26 GMT -5
Coach is repeatedly claiming we are a "young team" and still learning. Tell me, how many other teams can boast 3 players who have basically started every game for three years? I don't buy this lame excuse of his. What he should be doing is calling out Jeff Green in particular or benching him until he gets his act together. He has played horribly this season and he is the most important player on the team. If Coach isn't at least privately getting on Green's case big time, then he is fooling himself with these lame excuses. Its not an excuse its the truth. If you are upset, be upset for your unreasonable expectations of this team this year. We are a young team and with young players, no matter how talented, you are going to have growing pains. Last night was a perfect example. Again, you can't just look at box scores and make conclusions. You got to watch the game too. Jeff was running the PG position at times during the game. Actually bringing the ball up. You can't measure a player like Jeff Green by his box score. Jeff can have a great game and only score 6 points rebounds. But he does other things that you can't put on a score card, like initiate the offense, setting screens, coaching out on the floor, etc., etc. I know its early,but throwing this team under the bus after 2 losses? Teams that are actually better than us. lol. i thought i was the only one who saw jeff playing PG
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RDF
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Post by RDF on Nov 30, 2006 12:30:08 GMT -5
From what I've seen of Wright, RDF, he has tremendous talent, but if he thinks his style of jacking up 25 foot threes as soon as he comes upcourt (which he seems to do a lot) wins games in college, he's mistaken. Summers started in game three. The freshmen are all getting burn despite less than two months of practice. I'd say that the freshmen next year will play if the team is better. I don't think III is forcing anything on anyone. No one played with any intensity versus ODU or Oregon. Letting people jack up shots or freelance won't change that. I could be completely wrong, but I really don't think III wants them to play slow down ball anymore. But he wants people to take good shots. For some reason, our best players aren't aggressive in any aspect of the game. Maybe it is because III wants them to read and react and they don't know how to read quickly yet. That explains the frosh, but it certainly doesn't excuse Jeff and Roy. Wright played on loaded AAU teams that WON--and great players adjust to the role that is demanded of them--the guy can play and shoot the ball. It's easier to get a guard and hone his play down then to try and get him to be more aggressive. This program lacks aggressive players and dominant personalities. Wright is a pitbull type. I'm not for any style of play--except one that utlizes what the roster presents with best chance of WINNING. The NJ Nets, Wizards run variations of Princeton principles and they score/play aggressively. Mike Bibby with Kings is how I see Wright's role--a bit of lead guard and scoring when needed--he can shoot the ball. He also has played with talent and WON--which many of our guys haven't done-same with Freeman--who has WON and shared ball. They'll be assets from Day One. I'm not saying to jack up shots--but 50 shot attempts in a 40 minute game? That is not condusive to winning and it's certainly not when you trail in latter stages--coaches get paid to win--not impose their style on teams. This team is going to improve but to win, they will not be able to play as past III teams have--and many people see that and have seen that since Summer. I don't care if Wright jacks up 30 footers if they go in--and Freeman same-but I highly doubt that will happen, these kids know how to play with talent and win with talented players. Guess AI/Page didn't help Hoyas win because they jacked up shots too--for as nice of a player as Othella was, Georgetown won with perimeter talent/threats and not with Joey Brown and Othella running the show. You need GUARDS and SHOOTERS and beating the doubters to the punch--check out Iverson's shooting percentages as a College Player--especially his Soph season--so we don't have to hear the tired, and lazy "he would shoot 10-35"........ Perimeter play/guards are how you win-and for all of the talk of Florida's frontcourt, Taurean Green, Lee Humphrey, and Corey Brewer are why they won a National Title.
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RDF
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Post by RDF on Nov 30, 2006 12:34:52 GMT -5
RDF, I have to question you here. We all think the current freshmen have talent, right? They were highly ranked, etc etc. But what have they shown us? Squaddoosh. Macklin can't shoot, Summers can't defend these are flaws that would limit their participation in any offensive system. I'm starting so see you as more of a fan of Pops and Esh's press and run style. But that's just not III's style. We beat Duke and Pitt and OSU last year by having an effective, efficient, organized team. I don't think it's an accident that we haven't won a title since the mid-80s and UCLA got to the final last year. It's that what works in this era is skilled basketball. And this team hasn't developed the skills yet to mesh with returning players (who are also playing like crap). We will likely struggle every year in November under III. Just a given. But we will likely also be very good by the end of each year. And that's what he's playing for. YB, did you watch the 3 games you mentioned or did you sleep through them--Duke game was most uptempo we ever saw III's system utilized--Hoyas ATTACKED. Pitt game was a debacle in 1st Half, then team ATTACKED and got out and ran, and won. Ohio State game--team was AGGRESSIVE. It's not about running, it's about aggression--and that is something that great players don't need to be taught--they instinctively have it. You can play 5 guys standing out at 3 point line or have a team that takes no 3 point shots at all, but they better SHOOT and ATTACK or you can't win. Styles don't win games, players/skilled players do--the better your talent is, the better chances of winning. As for the ignorant comment about "talent is better then experience" and Phil Knight--we're talking about SPORTS and talent wins out. Otherwise, why recruit anyone--just get walk ons, let them play 4 years and watch your experience go up against talented FR players. Hell why even recruit--lets just have guys from Yates come out and play against Big East and use our "experience". Just stupidity and had nothing to do with points being debated in topic. And I'll take Phil Knight to run Nike over any rube from this site, ;D
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mrsixer123
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Post by mrsixer123 on Nov 30, 2006 12:44:15 GMT -5
"Styles don't win games, players/skilled players do--the better your talent is, the better chances of winning."
EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!!!
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mrsixer123
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Post by mrsixer123 on Nov 30, 2006 12:45:21 GMT -5
I would mention "Baby Doc" Rivers has been pretty good so far- learning his role, not going outside of himself but doing what the team needs. Pretty cool. what has he done to elevate the team?
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YB
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Post by YB on Nov 30, 2006 12:49:18 GMT -5
I never mentioned Phil Knight.
But as for the Hoyas, they didn't necessarily run and gun in those games- they still played III's system. They just succeeded at it. Right now they are not succeeding with it because there are too many new parts to integrate smoothly. But is that to say you throw out the system because it is not working right now? No. You could just as easily fault the players for not using any inate aggression within the system.
Are you sure you're not giving the young players too much credit for"knowing how to play ball"? AAU doesn't teach you anything, just showcases talent. I don't think because someone has played in a burger game they necesarily know how to play the game. They may just be talented; but that is different from skill. I'd rather teach the young guys the skills now to have them be quality players for years.
BTW, That is not all of the young guys. Macklin is staying within himself well, rebounding, defending, dunking. Rivers has been great in the backcourt- reminds me of a freshman Jon Wallace.
Everyone else has been erratic, but I want them to learn those skills- not play in a system that doesn't teach them anything (for the record, I am not saying you're proposing that).
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Oh My!
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Post by Oh My! on Nov 30, 2006 12:49:27 GMT -5
I mentioned Phil Knight, but I guess I'm an ignorant "rube".
I claim ignorance.....if that means the following people came in with elite talent & did not improve with experience: Boubacar Aw, Don Reid, Antoine Stoudamire, Jerome Williams, Ashanti Cook.
Also, if talent is preferable, I'd love to revert back to the careers of: Anthony Perry, Michael Tate, Lee Scruggs, Matt Causey.
In other SPORTS, the following TALENTS always succeed: Alex Rodriguez, Mark Prior, Jose Canseco, Keyshawn Johnson, Eric Lindros. Also, experience never helped: Larry Johnson, Tiki Barber, Tony Romo, Brendan Shanahan, Brodie Merrill.
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dreamhoya
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Post by dreamhoya on Nov 30, 2006 12:58:41 GMT -5
In order for Jeff to play better, he needs the freedom to dump the system. He can't do that at this point. He's hamstrung. Right now, this offense puts a muzzle on talent and keeps most games close that don't need to be close. But, i won't be a pessimist anymore. We'll see. I try to think of us being young, but our starters are pretty experienced with two sophomores playing with 3 juniors.
chi
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mrsixer123
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Post by mrsixer123 on Nov 30, 2006 13:24:57 GMT -5
In order for Jeff to play better, he needs the freedom to dump the system. He can't do that at this point. He's hamstrung. Right now, this offense puts a muzzle on talent and keeps most games close that don't need to be close. But, i won't be a pessimist anymore. We'll see. I try to think of us being young, but our starters are pretty experienced with two sophomores playing with 3 juniors. chi amen!
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hoyaboy1
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Post by hoyaboy1 on Nov 30, 2006 13:27:13 GMT -5
I mentioned Phil Knight, but I guess I'm an ignorant "rube". I claim ignorance.....if that means the following people came in with elite talent & did not improve with experience: Boubacar Aw, Don Reid, Antoine Stoudamire, Jerome Williams, Ashanti Cook. Also, if talent is preferable, I'd love to revert back to the careers of: Anthony Perry, Michael Tate, Lee Scruggs, Matt Causey. In other SPORTS, the following TALENTS always succeed: Alex Rodriguez, Mark Prior, Jose Canseco, Keyshawn Johnson, Eric Lindros. Also, experience never helped: Larry Johnson, Tiki Barber, Tony Romo, Brendan Shanahan, Brodie Merrill. This post doesn't really make any sense. At all.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Nov 30, 2006 14:08:49 GMT -5
YB, did you watch the 3 games you mentioned or did you sleep through them--Duke game was most uptempo we ever saw III's system utilized--Hoyas ATTACKED. Pitt game was a debacle in 1st Half, then team ATTACKED and got out and ran, and won. Ohio State game--team was AGGRESSIVE. It's not about running, it's about aggression--and that is something that great players don't need to be taught--they instinctively have it. So you admit that the system can be run with aggression -- it isn't the system, it's either the players or a coaching choice? If you do, we agree. People blame the system, but it isn't the system causing 50 shots in 40 minutes. It's turnovers, player/coach choice and no offensive rebounding.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Nov 30, 2006 14:10:06 GMT -5
"Styles don't win games, players/skilled players do--the better your talent is, the better chances of winning." EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!!! So when you "coach" you don't actually do anything, do you?
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Nov 30, 2006 14:11:43 GMT -5
In order for Jeff to play better, he needs the freedom to dump the system. He can't do that at this point. He's hamstrung. Right now, this offense puts a muzzle on talent and keeps most games close that don't need to be close. But, i won't be a pessimist anymore. We'll see. I try to think of us being young, but our starters are pretty experienced with two sophomores playing with 3 juniors. chi Jeff's lack of shots has nothing to do with the system and everything to do with the fact that Jeff isn't aggressive. He's never been an aggressive scorer -- even in HS. Sometimes he's less aggressive than others. Last night he was catatonic. There's nothing about the system that tells him not to shoot. Did you seriously watch that game, watch Jeff do nothing, and think "Man, this system is holding him back?" as he passed up any opportunity to do anything?
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Nov 30, 2006 14:14:11 GMT -5
I mentioned Phil Knight, but I guess I'm an ignorant "rube". I claim ignorance.....if that means the following people came in with elite talent & did not improve with experience: Boubacar Aw, Don Reid, Antoine Stoudamire, Jerome Williams, Ashanti Cook. Also, if talent is preferable, I'd love to revert back to the careers of: Anthony Perry, Michael Tate, Lee Scruggs, Matt Causey. In other SPORTS, the following TALENTS always succeed: Alex Rodriguez, Mark Prior, Jose Canseco, Keyshawn Johnson, Eric Lindros. Also, experience never helped: Larry Johnson, Tiki Barber, Tony Romo, Brendan Shanahan, Brodie Merrill. This post doesn't really make any sense. At all. The most (physically) talented players aren't always the best and don't always win.
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hoyaboy1
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Post by hoyaboy1 on Nov 30, 2006 14:17:25 GMT -5
Ok, but his list seems totally random and to list a bunch of players together that have little in common.
It also doesn't have anything to do with whether talent or experience is more important.
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RDF
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Post by RDF on Nov 30, 2006 14:44:59 GMT -5
I mentioned Phil Knight, but I guess I'm an ignorant "rube". I claim ignorance.....if that means the following people came in with elite talent & did not improve with experience: Boubacar Aw, Don Reid, Antoine Stoudamire, Jerome Williams, Ashanti Cook. Also, if talent is preferable, I'd love to revert back to the careers of: Anthony Perry, Michael Tate, Lee Scruggs, Matt Causey. In other SPORTS, the following TALENTS always succeed: Alex Rodriguez, Mark Prior, Jose Canseco, Keyshawn Johnson, Eric Lindros. Also, experience never helped: Larry Johnson, Tiki Barber, Tony Romo, Brendan Shanahan, Brodie Merrill. Did you see the smiley face behind the "Rube" comment? It is called a joke--so you are not a rube, you just don't have a personality. Why are we bringing up Professional Athletes into this discussion? Those guys all have made it to the highest level on their ability/talent--success at that level if about performing against your peers and while some have more hype then others, they've all performed at a level to get there. As for the College players/Hoyas you mentioned, Scruggs was a fine player for GU--considering he went from obscurity to JC to GU. Perry was never the star talent he was hyped to be but he was better then we saw and poorly developed. Tate was never same player after his knee injury--and didn't pan out--that happens. If you want to get into an argument over talent, you need to consider how to evaluate it--I don't buy into recruiting ranking and what "gurus" think--I watch players and judge them based on what I see and my definition of who possesses talent is different then what most think--not saying better--but just different. When I see someone like Jeff Green and Josh McRoberts, I know which player I'd take over long haul and it wouldn't be McRoberts--but that is from just watching them play and ignoring the rankings. Many disagree--which is fine, but we'll see who has a longer, more productive career in long run and it's why I'm frustrated with the lack of Jeff performing to level he's more then capable of--a great player has to keep improving and Jeff's not stepping up and taking his game up a level which he's capable of doing--he needs to CARRY this team, not settle into a role. McRoberts isn't capable of taking his game up--he is slow, a poor shooter, poor finisher when defended, and while he can develop into a better shooter, will he--he's someone who has hit his peak as a player physically--Jeff is not--and he's allowing himself to be guarded and hurting his team by trying to be unselfish. Being selfish is putting yourself ahead of the team--being a leader is doing whatever is needed to help the team win--be it scoring, taking more shots, etc.... and in that category, I'd take McRoberts over Jeff--he seems to want to win and do what is needed a bit more--but minute Jeff learns this trait, he jumps past McRoberts based on talent alone--he's a far superior basketball prospect.
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Oh My!
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Post by Oh My! on Nov 30, 2006 14:59:22 GMT -5
I prefer rube. I brought up Professional Athletes because it was stated that the talent issue was specific to SPORTS. If you want me to cite random collegiate athletes to make my point, I certainly can.
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RDF
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Post by RDF on Nov 30, 2006 15:11:18 GMT -5
I prefer rube. I brought up Professional Athletes because it was stated that the talent issue was specific to SPORTS. If you want me to cite random collegiate athletes to make my point, I certainly can. Understood but bringing up Jose Canseco, A-Rod, and trying to make it as if they are failures is not making a point--they aren't who I would want on my team--but they have succeeding individually in a sport that you can help your team by being an individual. Both were MVP's at the Professional Level and accomplished something nobody in history before them had--be it 40/40 or the fastest to HR's at their age--so it's not making a point to call them out as failures--their talent is justified. FB is ultimate team game--you can be greatest skill guy in world but you need others to help you or you look like garbage. Again, everyone is talented enough to make it to that level, but it's little things that seperate. We can debate all day/night about this, but talented people are going to put you in position to win more then untalented people. Just look at GU--you want intangible guys like Joey Brown to be your "off the bench guard"--not a starter/lead guard. You see what Hoyas did with him as focal point and see what Hoyas did with Iverson, Michael Jackson, likes at PG. What I think is interesting is how the type of system GU uses/wants to use--seems to fit players like Reggie Williams more then anyone and yet we seem to see the team recruit Power Forward/Combos more then traditional swing players like a Wingate/Williams who would be perfect due to their skill sets. That's why I hope we see a move toward getting more players who excel in driving/taking players off the dribble and can still shoot because it makes you defend entire court--right now we have guys who can't do both making up our perimeter game-Summers is closest to what we have in addition to Jeff but we lack the athletic, slashing, finisher who can also knock down a jumper--like a Reggie Williams. Devin Ebanks is out there in future and someone like Kevin Durant would've been perfect for this offense--or a Donte Greene, but they have to choose you, so hopefully we'll see that added in future.
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