jwp91
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Post by jwp91 on Apr 25, 2024 17:23:44 GMT -5
I am hearing virtually no chance Brumbaugh stays. I m also hearing that its not his choice. I was being vague out of respect for those involved.
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Apr 25, 2024 17:27:40 GMT -5
Is five years your only standard for loyalty 2003? In all seriousness, this issue of loyalty extends to the coaching staff(s) as well. Remember Malcom & Tim? My comment was that players no longer have loyalty. This discussion was about players, not coaches. The two situations aren't analagous. Currently, players literally have nothing tying them to a university. They can leave on a whim. Coaches do not have that luxury. They sign contracts (and yes, many paid handsomely). When they underperform, they are fired. And yes, when they do really well at lower-level programs, they often move to better programs. Just as players now transfer to better schools. I do not blame them at all for that. The problem in your reasoning is that you are viewing my statement that players have no loyalty to universities as a pejorative or negative. I don't blame players or coaches for seeking out better opportunties or more money if they can get it. All the more power to them, they are operating within the system they have. That said, for the most part, most of the Big East coaches have been at jobs for a long time. And some of them ended their tenures because they were either fired or run off because of dissatisfacton (like Shaka Smart). Rick Pitino was at Louisville for 16 seasons before getting fired. Sure, he was only at Iona for three seasons, but everybody knew going in he was using it as a stepping stone, including Iona. Ed Cooley was at Providence for 12 years before leaving despite other offers to go elsewhere. Greg McDermott has been at Creighton for 14 seasons. Even Hurley has now been at Connecticut for 6 years, and Rhode Island before that for 6 years. And Shaka Smart stayed at both VCU and Texas for 6 seasons. Sean Miller was at Arizona 12 years before being dismissed. And on the bookends he was at Xavier 5 years, and now two more. Matta was at Ohio State for thirteen years before being forced out. If you want to compare the two, go ahead. But it's not proving the point you think it's proving. And there are few examples of coaches jumping from school to school like these guys in the portal are for one big reason--they are bound by contracts, and any coach who jumped around that much would be seen as unsteady. (As far as Ighoefe, I said at the time I thought it was bad form. On Wilson, Ewing basically ran him off into a "manager" until a scholarship opened up. I thought that was horrible and said so at the time. Then he graduated. We have no idea if Cooley wanted to retain him, but he had graduated and was a 4 year player. I certainly consider him loyal, and had he wanted to stay for this year, I would have welcomed him. We certainly had enough roster spots.) Coaches do have agency in the relationship, that's the point I'm driving at. To make this about the players alone is wrong IMHO... You've liked recent posts where the main point of the post is to say no player is safe when you're bad & how the staff has to upgrade the talent in order to improve. If we're being honest I'm sure some of these players who've opted to leave are asking about "loyalty" too, seeing that they chose to come to Gtown despite the bad run they're on. There are close to 2000 kids in the portal right now, we all know they are not all there voluntarily.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Apr 25, 2024 18:38:20 GMT -5
Coaches do have agency in the relationship, that's the point I'm driving at. To make this about the players alone is wrong IMHO... You've liked recent posts where the main point of the post is to say no player is safe when you're bad & how the staff has to upgrade the talent in order to improve. If we're being honest I'm sure some of these players who've opted to leave are asking about "loyalty" too, seeing that they chose to come to Gtown despite the bad run they're on. There are close to 2000 kids in the portal right now, we all know they are not all there voluntarily. I agree coaches have agency. And I am sure that there are kids who sit down with their coach, and it's made clear that they aren't going to get playing time. And then they leave. That's always been true, but it's probably easier to have that conversation now with guys when they can leave immediately and play, than years ago when that same conversastion would yield the kid being unhappy and stuck if he didn't want to sit. But if you took a poll of coaches, I bet there would be an overwhelming majority saying the current system stinks and needs to be changed. And I bet some players probably feel that way too. The new rules are making the game less fun for everyone involved. Again, in saying players lack loyalty, I am saying that as a negative reflection of the current college basketball athletes. The reason players are moving around so much is because the system allows them to easily do it, and it allows some of them to get handsomely paid at the same time. That is why guys like Kadary Richmond are leaving a school like Seton Hall. Why wouldn't he? He will be in high demand, he'll likely get a boatload of money, and he might even get on a better team than Seton Hall. The human element of all this is what it is for both the coaches and players. They will do what the system incentivizes and rewards. Players and coaches are no less or more selfish than they were 10 years ago. The difference now is that players can act selfishly and get paid, and immediately play basketball. So they do it. 10 years ago they could not do either one. That's why things are different, and why it's many of the appealing aspects the college game (though admittedly getting some kids some amount of wealth). As others have said, I think the ultimate answer is contracts with buyouts or other mechanisms to instill some stability. Players deserve to get paid, but with that money should come their own obligations and responsibilities. Same as coaches (for example, Nate Oates likely couldn't have moved to Kentcuky even if he wanted given the buy out--tough luck if he had wanted to do that). In my mind, those obligations should, at the option of school/player include multi-year contracts that are enforceable.
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jackofjoy
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Post by jackofjoy on Apr 25, 2024 20:40:24 GMT -5
That doesn't mean he has no choice to stay. It just means he has a choice he dislikes more than the other options he figures will be on the table. But he's got a choice. There is no right to play basketball. I also don't buy that it's "not his choice" for an additional reason. Putting aside chemistry/personality issues that we have little insight into, why wouldn't want Cooley want somebody like Brumbaugh on the bench? Heck, if this was 2015, and Cooley landed someone like Mack, that's in all likelihood what would have happened. I'd certainly love to have Brumbaugh backing up Mack. But the reality is that in 2024, guys who have skills can get NIL money and more playing time by moving, and that's what most of these kids want. And in Styles case, unofficial reports seem to indicate Styles' choice was based on NC State offering more money. I am pretty confident Styles would have gotten the playing time he wanted at Georgetown. Did Brumbaugh have the choice to stay at whatever amount of NIL Cooley was comfortable with offering, and with playing time limited by the addition of Malik Mack? Likely. I just think in 2024, guys like Brumbaugh do not view that as a viable option, even though it very much is an option if you don't put all your priorities on playing 30+ minutes and getting a ton of NIL. Now, if somebody actually has inside information and tells me that Georgetown offered him 0 NIL or something like that, we might have a different discussion. But, otherwise, I don't buy it. I highly doubt that Cooley told him he could not be on the team at all, my guess is that he told Rowan that his minutes were likely to decrease if they were able to recruit some other guards from the portal. I am sure Rowan, like most highly competitive athletes, wanted a chance to play and contribute to the team. When he realized that he was likely to a back up point guard and see limited minutes, he decided he would transfer. I liked Rowan and thought he could develop into a good college player, but he was not ready last year, and I don't think he would be ready this year, to be a starting point guard on a competitive Big East team. Both the coach and Rowan made decisions that were best for them and I am Ok with that. I wish players did not transfer as often as they do now, but it is part of the college basketball game. ^^ This. In other words, what the “we’re running Brumbaugh off” crowd was complaining about during the season … too slow on defense, handles/vision not good enough, etc.
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Apr 25, 2024 21:58:06 GMT -5
Coaches do have agency in the relationship, that's the point I'm driving at. To make this about the players alone is wrong IMHO... You've liked recent posts where the main point of the post is to say no player is safe when you're bad & how the staff has to upgrade the talent in order to improve. If we're being honest I'm sure some of these players who've opted to leave are asking about "loyalty" too, seeing that they chose to come to Gtown despite the bad run they're on. There are close to 2000 kids in the portal right now, we all know they are not all there voluntarily. I agree coaches have agency. And I am sure that there are kids who sit down with their coach, and it's made clear that they aren't going to get playing time. And then they leave. That's always been true, but it's probably easier to have that conversation now with guys when they can leave immediately and play, than years ago when that same conversastion would yield the kid being unhappy and stuck if he didn't want to sit. But if you took a poll of coaches, I bet there would be an overwhelming majority saying the current system stinks and needs to be changed. And I bet some players probably feel that way too. The new rules are making the game less fun for everyone involved. Again, in saying players lack loyalty, I am saying that as a negative reflection of the current college basketball athletes. The reason players are moving around so much is because the system allows them to easily do it, and it allows some of them to get handsomely paid at the same time. That is why guys like Kadary Richmond are leaving a school like Seton Hall. Why wouldn't he? He will be in high demand, he'll likely get a boatload of money, and he might even get on a better team than Seton Hall. The human element of all this is what it is for both the coaches and players. They will do what the system incentivizes and rewards. Players and coaches are no less or more selfish than they were 10 years ago. The difference now is that players can act selfishly and get paid, and immediately play basketball. So they do it. 10 years ago they could not do either one. That's why things are different, and why it's many of the appealing aspects the college game (though admittedly getting some kids some amount of wealth). As others have said, I think the ultimate answer is contracts with buyouts or other mechanisms to instill some stability. Players deserve to get paid, but with that money should come their own obligations and responsibilities. Same as coaches (for example, Nate Oates likely couldn't have moved to Kentcuky even if he wanted given the buy out--tough luck if he had wanted to do that). In my mind, those obligations should, at the option of school/player include multi-year contracts that are enforceable. Of course, coaches are gonna say the system stinks now that they've lost a lot of the control/leverage over their players. However, this new system also allows them to reconfigure their teams quickly if they choose which is an option they didn't have 10 years ago. I understand your points, I feel like the selfishness isn't on the players alone, for every Richmond there's a Cook.
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DanMcQ
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Post by DanMcQ on Apr 26, 2024 5:27:48 GMT -5
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jwp91
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Post by jwp91 on Apr 26, 2024 10:30:17 GMT -5
From what I can tell, Formal Hoya seems to be the best source of Hoya scoop in the current moment.
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blueandgray
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Post by blueandgray on Apr 26, 2024 14:23:53 GMT -5
I could be wrong, but I don’t imagine we’ll see another commitment until the date for guys to enter their name in the portal comes and goes. That way, if a school has to slightly overpay a kid to complete a team…(ie a big) while it may upset the apple cart, it wouldn’t lead to everyone wanting to renegotiate or lead to a mass exodus.
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blueandgray
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Post by blueandgray on Apr 26, 2024 14:28:07 GMT -5
What I do know is that after taking a few weeks off to deal with the portal, the staff has started once again focusing their attention to 2025 kids. It makes me believe that they have a pretty good understanding of the big they are going to get. This was also the case with Mack….that deal was done days before the news came out.
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RBHoya
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Post by RBHoya on Apr 26, 2024 14:50:21 GMT -5
I could be wrong, but I don’t imagine we’ll see another commitment until the date for guys to enter their name in the portal comes and goes. That way, if a school has to slightly overpay a kid to complete a team…(ie a big) while it may upset the apple cart, it wouldn’t lead to everyone wanting to renegotiate or lead to a mass exodus. Was thinking the same. It could be beneficial to wait ~5 more days to get a commitment. For example, I am worried about Fielder, that if we bring in 1-2 more big guys in addition to Sorber that he might follow his friend Supreme into the portal. That's not based on any intel, just seems like in this day and age if you have any good player who is past his freshman year and he gets the impression that he's not going to be starting and playing >20 mpg you are at significant risk of a transfer. But once May 1 passes, he's basically locked in. I don't think you'd want to strategically lock in a player who doesn't want to be here (seems bad for team spirit!) but a lot of times transfers are based on perception and inflated view of self rather than reality. I can see a scenario where we bring in 2 other frontcourt players to pair with Sorber and Fielder and Fielder ends up playing ~20 minutes a game, which is about the right amount for a good sophomore who battled injuries his freshman year. But if he's hoping to play 30mpg, and sees 2 new big bodies come in and is afraid he's only going to get 10mpg, there's potential for exploring his options. If it's after Wednesday though, he's most likely staying with the team and hopefully embraces the battle for minutes. It also seems like most of our targets are making the rounds right now, either they visited us already and are taking a couple more visits elsewhere now, or they are visiting elsewhere this weekend and hopefully we get a visit in the next week or two. So it feels like we may have a few more days of waiting regardless.
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Apr 27, 2024 7:16:04 GMT -5
I could be wrong, but I don’t imagine we’ll see another commitment until the date for guys to enter their name in the portal comes and goes. That way, if a school has to slightly overpay a kid to complete a team…(ie a big) while it may upset the apple cart, it wouldn’t lead to everyone wanting to renegotiate or lead to a mass exodus. Was thinking the same. It could be beneficial to wait ~5 more days to get a commitment. For example, I am worried about Fielder, that if we bring in 1-2 more big guys in addition to Sorber that he might follow his friend Supreme into the portal. That's not based on any intel, just seems like in this day and age if you have any good player who is past his freshman year and he gets the impression that he's not going to be starting and playing >20 mpg you are at significant risk of a transfer. But once May 1 passes, he's basically locked in. I don't think you'd want to strategically lock in a player who doesn't want to be here (seems bad for team spirit!) but a lot of times transfers are based on perception and inflated view of self rather than reality. I can see a scenario where we bring in 2 other frontcourt players to pair with Sorber and Fielder and Fielder ends up playing ~20 minutes a game, which is about the right amount for a good sophomore who battled injuries his freshman year. But if he's hoping to play 30mpg, and sees 2 new big bodies come in and is afraid he's only going to get 10mpg, there's potential for exploring his options. If it's after Wednesday though, he's most likely staying with the team and hopefully embraces the battle for minutes. It also seems like most of our targets are making the rounds right now, either they visited us already and are taking a couple more visits elsewhere now, or they are visiting elsewhere this weekend and hopefully we get a visit in the next week or two. So it feels like we may have a few more days of waiting regardless. This seems sound. That said there is in all likelihood a reason why Cook has bolted and Fielder has yet to. Certainly Cooley and Co have had and are having conversations with their current guys (including recruits coming from high school) and have established a pecking order. The players they have the biggest plans for are probably being kept up to date with what the intentions are with any new additions. Unless Fielder feels his position needs to be the center spot, he should not be bothered by any names the Hoyas are rumored to be looking at. Perhaps he has even already negotiated his NIL contract and feels good about it. During the rumors of Epps transferring I came across one source online who suggested he had inside info by claiming Epps had already renegotiated his NIL deal with Georgetown.
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Apr 27, 2024 7:27:45 GMT -5
From what I can tell, Formal Hoya seems to be the best source of Hoya scoop in the current moment. On this board at least. There are two to three on Hoya Report who could at least rival him/her. Heck, perhaps one of them is Formal Hoya.
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Apr 27, 2024 10:04:26 GMT -5
I could be wrong, but I don’t imagine we’ll see another commitment until the date for guys to enter their name in the portal comes and goes. That way, if a school has to slightly overpay a kid to complete a team…(ie a big) while it may upset the apple cart, it wouldn’t lead to everyone wanting to renegotiate or lead to a mass exodus. Was thinking the same. It could be beneficial to wait ~5 more days to get a commitment. For example, I am worried about Fielder, that if we bring in 1-2 more big guys in addition to Sorber that he might follow his friend Supreme into the portal. That's not based on any intel, just seems like in this day and age if you have any good player who is past his freshman year and he gets the impression that he's not going to be starting and playing >20 mpg you are at significant risk of a transfer. But once May 1 passes, he's basically locked in. I don't think you'd want to strategically lock in a player who doesn't want to be here (seems bad for team spirit!) but a lot of times transfers are based on perception and inflated view of self rather than reality. I can see a scenario where we bring in 2 other frontcourt players to pair with Sorber and Fielder and Fielder ends up playing ~20 minutes a game, which is about the right amount for a good sophomore who battled injuries his freshman year. But if he's hoping to play 30mpg, and sees 2 new big bodies come in and is afraid he's only going to get 10mpg, there's potential for exploring his options. If it's after Wednesday though, he's most likely staying with the team and hopefully embraces the battle for minutes. It also seems like most of our targets are making the rounds right now, either they visited us already and are taking a couple more visits elsewhere now, or they are visiting elsewhere this weekend and hopefully we get a visit in the next week or two. So it feels like we may have a few more days of waiting regardless. This strategy makes sense in a lot of ways but I wonder what the staff is saying to the recruited players to get them to delay their announcement.
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Apr 27, 2024 10:29:28 GMT -5
Whatever it was it was likely said to Kenny Johnson too. 😀
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CTHoya08
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Post by CTHoya08 on Apr 27, 2024 11:38:34 GMT -5
Was thinking the same. It could be beneficial to wait ~5 more days to get a commitment. For example, I am worried about Fielder, that if we bring in 1-2 more big guys in addition to Sorber that he might follow his friend Supreme into the portal. That's not based on any intel, just seems like in this day and age if you have any good player who is past his freshman year and he gets the impression that he's not going to be starting and playing >20 mpg you are at significant risk of a transfer. But once May 1 passes, he's basically locked in. I don't think you'd want to strategically lock in a player who doesn't want to be here (seems bad for team spirit!) but a lot of times transfers are based on perception and inflated view of self rather than reality. I can see a scenario where we bring in 2 other frontcourt players to pair with Sorber and Fielder and Fielder ends up playing ~20 minutes a game, which is about the right amount for a good sophomore who battled injuries his freshman year. But if he's hoping to play 30mpg, and sees 2 new big bodies come in and is afraid he's only going to get 10mpg, there's potential for exploring his options. If it's after Wednesday though, he's most likely staying with the team and hopefully embraces the battle for minutes. It also seems like most of our targets are making the rounds right now, either they visited us already and are taking a couple more visits elsewhere now, or they are visiting elsewhere this weekend and hopefully we get a visit in the next week or two. So it feels like we may have a few more days of waiting regardless. This strategy makes sense in a lot of ways but I wonder what the staff is saying to the recruited players to get them to delay their announcement. I imagine that they’re telling them that keeping mum will help ensure that they’re joining the team that they’re signing up to join. And it’s also possible, now that there’s money involved above the table, that the NIL deal is conditioned on keeping it under wraps until a certain date.
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TC
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Post by TC on Apr 27, 2024 12:42:38 GMT -5
I think there's a bit of galaxy brain thinking going on here - it really looked like Mack held off on his announcement until the Harvard Basketball banquet was over, not for any strategery reasons.
If we had a C or PF committed, I'd imagine we'd want it announced as quickly as possible so they are off of the market.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Apr 27, 2024 12:57:24 GMT -5
I think there's a bit of galaxy brain thinking going on here - it really looked like Mack held off on his announcement until the Harvard Basketball banquet was over, not for any strategery reasons. If we had a C or PF committed, I'd imagine we'd want it announced as quickly as possible so they are off of the market. Not only that, but for example, if you're bringing in a higher impact guy--let's say Cliff Omoruyi--you'd want that out there so that other people you are recruiting know they'd be joining a better team. Of course, it works both ways. If the staff is telling somebody to hold back, they can similarly tell other recruits that the other guy holding back is in the fold. Either way, I truly hope we make it through Wednesday with no further portal entries from our team, and that soon after we get some good commits. And hopefully Cliff Omoruyi (or similar talent) realizes Georgetown is the place to commit post May 1.
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hoyaboya
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Post by hoyaboya on Apr 29, 2024 9:17:51 GMT -5
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Post by practice on Apr 29, 2024 9:58:37 GMT -5
Hopefully a trade - Cliff for Supreme and about $300K+ or more for Cliff over Supreme's NIL deal!!!
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Post by dariantownesvanzandt on Apr 29, 2024 10:01:33 GMT -5
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