|
Post by bearsandbulls on Feb 28, 2024 9:17:23 GMT -5
Preface everything with I really like EC and want him to succeed. We can talk of talent deficit, poor transfer portal movements last year, etc. but the thing that bothers me most is that even though we are undermanned that we are not showing improved offense or defense. That does not for a minute mean we beat anyone we aren't expected to beat, but "how" we are playing the game and how that compares to our first games of the season. And yes, the Big East competition is much better than any OOC schedule, but I see the players making the same freshmen mistakes just as grossly as they have all season. That scares.
The other thing is that you cannot disclose what funding you have in NIL as that will be taken advantage of, but in general terms do we have sufficient funding in NIL to go to war this off season. With Fox in charge, I wonder, but then that doesn't take into consideration major donors and their gifts to same? We have four good recruits coming in. Now we have to compliment nicely in the portal. Then we will see what EC can do.
|
|
EtomicB
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 14,952
|
Post by EtomicB on Feb 28, 2024 9:24:41 GMT -5
Telling us what the culture no longer is is not the same as telling us what it currently is.. I don't think that's true. What we wanted was improvement this year and there are real signs of improvement there culturewise, and we have to point to where we started. Every one of your criticisms (why aren't we Butler, etc) are coming from the viewpoint that the program is a giant Etch-a-Sketch and that the day Cooley walked in the door that thing got shaken up and erased clean - and he was handed a clear slate instead of a giant turd sandwich. For the sake of argument, I'll concede that the program as a whole is in a better spot overall but I need an answer to the following question What is the identity of this current Hoya team TC? Xavier is a running team, one of the best in the country transition wise Creighton's identity is offense, the same goes for Butler this season. Seton Hall's identity is toughness.
|
|
TC
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 9,458
|
Post by TC on Feb 28, 2024 9:28:49 GMT -5
"Us, We, Together, Family, Friars" is a culture or identity. You're talking offensive/defensive strengths.
|
|
guru
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 6,605
|
Post by guru on Feb 28, 2024 9:30:34 GMT -5
"Us, We, Together, Family, Friars" is a culture or identity. It's hard to believe you actually typed this
|
|
|
Post by dariantownesvanzandt on Feb 28, 2024 9:42:11 GMT -5
It's amazing how many people on here have never genuinely accepted that we've got a really bad team this year.
|
|
jwp91
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 6,035
|
Post by jwp91 on Feb 28, 2024 9:44:17 GMT -5
It's amazing how many people on here have never genuinely accepted that we've got a really bad team this year. Yea, the sum of the parts < l everyone in the Big East except for DePaul (a lot less)
|
|
EtomicB
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 14,952
|
Post by EtomicB on Feb 28, 2024 10:15:41 GMT -5
"Us, We, Together, Family, Friars" is a culture or identity. You're talking offensive/defensive strengths. That was the program culture but his teams at PC played with toughness & grittiness. That was their on court identity win or lose, they consistently played this way... I get not having an answer for the question TC, it's a problem in my opinion
|
|
hoyaboya
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 12,469
Member is Online
|
Post by hoyaboya on Feb 28, 2024 10:18:22 GMT -5
My recall is that we were noncompetitive early in many games, and that Ewing kept starters in and the scores sometimes ended up appearing semi-respectable if you hadn't actually seen the game and how poorly the Hoyas played. IOW, lots of stats padding in garbage time. For reference, last season we lost 5 games by 20 or more points, including the final 3 when the wheels really came off the program. This year we have already lost 6 such games. The wheels are not back on the program. Guru is 100% correct and your memory is faulty, SSHoya. Through 17 Big East games, we are worse this season under Cooley than we were last season under Ewing. Both teams were 2-15 in the Big East at the same point. Under Cooley this season, the average margin is Opponents 81.1 - Hoyas 67. Under Ewing last year, the average margin was Opponents 78.7 - Hoyas 68.6. We are 4 points a game less competitive this season in the Big East, through 17 games, than we were last season under Ewing. Let that sink in...
|
|
hoyaboya
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 12,469
Member is Online
|
Post by hoyaboya on Feb 28, 2024 10:38:39 GMT -5
I know it's year 1, I know the rebuild is going to be tough, but we are somehow worse than we were last season. And at the moment we look like absolute fools for all our machinations to hire Cooley away from Providence. Were we lower in Ken Pom/Net the last 2 years? Serious Q - we may be lower this year I couldn't recall. I'm assuming it's close. Glad you asked. Here's what I could find on NET: Under Cooley, we are currently #205 in the NET. www.ncaa.com/rankings/basketball-men/d1/ncaa-mens-basketball-net-rankingsIn 2022-2023, we were #243 in the NET. www.warrennolan.com/basketball/2023/netIn 2021-2022, our final NET ranking was #194. www.warrennolan.com/basketball/2022/netSo, at least according to NET, Cooley's 2023-2024 Hoyas are worse than Patrick Ewing's 6-25 Hoyas that went 0-20 in the Big East. In KenPom, under Cooley we are currently #198. In 2023, we finished #219 and in 2022, we finished #175. kenpom.comObjectively, Cooley's team is as bad as Ewing's worst teams.
|
|
hoyazeke
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 5,818
|
Post by hoyazeke on Feb 28, 2024 11:08:16 GMT -5
My recall is that we were noncompetitive early in many games, and that Ewing kept starters in and the scores sometimes ended up appearing semi-respectable if you hadn't actually seen the game and how poorly the Hoyas played. IOW, lots of stats padding in garbage time. For reference, last season we lost 5 games by 20 or more points, including the final 3 when the wheels really came off the program. This year we have already lost 6 such games. The wheels are not back on the program. Last yrs team had no business losing any gms by 20+pts. Comparing last year's team to this year's team is totally unfair to EC. Last year's team had depth and talent at all positions and should have been better. Which is why they mostly played teams close in the 1st half and fell apart in the 2nd. This year's team has no front court depth and is inexperienced at all positions. I believe EC would've had last years team in the middle of the pack in the BE....We just have to suffer through this season and pray that EC finds a few upperclassmen in the portal and/or RW, DF and DM improve in all aspects of college ball.
|
|
guru
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 6,605
|
Post by guru on Feb 28, 2024 11:15:37 GMT -5
For reference, last season we lost 5 games by 20 or more points, including the final 3 when the wheels really came off the program. This year we have already lost 6 such games. The wheels are not back on the program. Last yrs team had no business losing any gms by 20+pts. Comparing last year's team to this year's team is totally unfair to EC. Last year's team had depth and talent at all positions and should have been better. Which is why they mostly played teams close in the 1st half and fell apart in the 2nd. This year's team has no front court depth and is inexperienced at all positions. I believe EC would've had last years team in the middle of the pack in the BE....We just have to suffer through this season and pray that EC finds a few upperclassmen in the portal and/or RW, DF and DM improve in all aspects of college ball. The question was whether we had endured these types of merciless beatings in the 2 previous seasons.
|
|
EtomicB
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 14,952
|
Post by EtomicB on Feb 28, 2024 11:38:56 GMT -5
"Us, We, Together, Family, Friars" is a culture or identity. You're talking offensive/defensive strengths. You've spoken often of the similarities between ND & Gtown this season, where they're not similar is they have an identity and they've improved as the year has gone on. They're a young but solid team that consistently plays well defensively(29th KP)
|
|
Elvado
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 10,495
|
Post by Elvado on Feb 28, 2024 12:08:10 GMT -5
I don't think that's true. What we wanted was improvement this year and there are real signs of improvement there culturewise, and we have to point to where we started. Every one of your criticisms (why aren't we Butler, etc) are coming from the viewpoint that the program is a giant Etch-a-Sketch and that the day Cooley walked in the door that thing got shaken up and erased clean - and he was handed a clear slate instead of a giant turd sandwich. For the sake of argument, I'll concede that the program as a whole is in a better spot overall but I need an answer to the following question What is the identity of this current Hoya team TC? Xavier is a running team, one of the best in the country transition wise Creighton's identity is offense, the same goes for Butler this season. Seton Hall's identity is toughness. We have a cool uniform adored by Iverson fanboys….or so the announcer said last night….
|
|
EtomicB
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 14,952
|
Post by EtomicB on Feb 28, 2024 13:20:14 GMT -5
For the sake of argument, I'll concede that the program as a whole is in a better spot overall but I need an answer to the following question What is the identity of this current Hoya team TC? Xavier is a running team, one of the best in the country transition wise Creighton's identity is offense, the same goes for Butler this season. Seton Hall's identity is toughness. We have a cool uniform adored by Iverson fanboys….or so the announcer said last night…. They are nice but even this nugget is program related
|
|
|
Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Feb 28, 2024 13:40:27 GMT -5
Every time we lose am embarassing game like this the anger comes out. I get it. We have been a bad basketball team for a really long time. Given that we will not be in the tournament this year, next year will be the 10 year anniversary of our last at-large bid. Things have been bad, and for a while. So I get it.
As far as this season, it's been pretty abundantly clear that we have been bad for a while now. Every single Big East team that is not DePaul is significantly better than us. This is a major disappointment, of course, and I like many others thought that Cooley would have us in a much better position now. Before the season I said I wanted to team ranked at least 100 or so on KenPom, and we will fall far short of that. I am not happy with Cooley's results at all.
That said, I have good reason to believe that next year will be better. I don't blame people for being skeptical, I am skeptical too. The defense being so bad is just really confusing to me. I for sure thought Cooley would do better than Ewing on that score, but here we are.
I think the "have we improved/regressed" question, though is a much harder question to answer than it seems. Take Epps and Cook. A significant reason why they aren't having as much success now is because opposing teams are aware that they are the only real scoring threats on the team. So, opposing teams strategize around that. I am not absolving Epps or Cook of responsibility, but the fact is that everyone else is evolving/improving too.
But yes--we are a bad basketball team. And it would be unacceptable for us to be this bad ever again under Cooley.
|
|
bluegray79
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,099
|
Post by bluegray79 on Feb 28, 2024 13:49:41 GMT -5
I have maybe a little more perspective after some sleep and reading a few more posts about last night.
Given: we don't have the roster to play with the top five of the BE. Made painfully obvious again last night. Expecting major growth from game 1 to game 17 is asking for more than this lineup can/will exhibit. TBS, I fluctuate between resigning myself to the fact that EC has few answers right now b/c he doesn't have the talent to play any better or worrying that EC and staff are limited in creating plays to help even a struggling roster.
Given: we have a promising bunch of recruits coming in and a crucial portal season to produce a team that will be a much better indicator of what the Cooley makeover looks like Year 2.
We have been talking about these 2 pretty widely-accepted assumptions forever. I want to add a third: here are the games we should have/could have won this season - Holy Cross, TCU, Seton Hall (2x), Xavier, St. John's. There's an argument on maybe one or two of these, I imagine, but there's 6 games that I think we win next year with an improved lineup. Add in a couple of surprise wins, and we have a possible 10-11 BE wins in 24-25. That is one way I will be judging the trajectory of the program in year 2 of what I am thinking of as a 3-5 year (re)build.
Re: the culture of this team and the MBB program under EC & staff. I can't sum it up in a tidy word or phrase, but I can say what I see game to game. Yes, it does start at the top, and I see a coach that tells it like it is regarding the quality of play he sees but without once sacrificing any of his players or assistant coaches in the process. He talks about communicating, supporting, loving, helping out, nurturing the young men's health -- mental and physical -- and acknowledging that they are whole persons with lives on and off the court. Yeah, he has some showman in him and can sling it pretty good, but inasmuch as you can say what's in a person's heart, I appreciate what I see and hear. Pitino may have shaken his team out of a losing skid with his rant last week, but just about everyone agrees that he crossed a line that coaches of young people should not cross. (Plus, RP looks like a Sopranos character in those recent outfits. Yikes) I feel better about our guys after hearing EC during "In the huddle" and the pressers. I believe that that kind of approach pays off in big ways over time.
As far as what I see on the court that to me reveals the culture of the team, I see guys playing together, supporting each other, constantly touching base throughout the game, never sniping or badmouthing a teammate. They play hard, they can grind it out, and they are becoming a team with an attitude that I think will win more BE rock fights moving forward. They looked tired and defeated last night, but that was rare. They want to win, and this season must be hard on them all. I am more than o.k. with what I see as the developing culture of this team in year 1 of EC.
Lastly, I stand by my assertion that we don't suck (haha). Seriously, we aren't where we want to be, we have been buried by the top 5 of the league, but given what we're playing with and what I can realistically expect in year 1 of the Build, I am absolutely deflated and rendered emotionally paralyzed by how too many games have ended and appreciative of the process at hand, which will produce better squads each year. So, transposed into mathematics that looks like this: disheartened + appreciative = do not suck.
In a fight between a Bulldawg and a freaking Musketeer, who wins? I'm with the Bulldawgs every time -- beat Xavier!
|
|
seaweed
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 4,670
|
Post by seaweed on Feb 28, 2024 13:57:21 GMT -5
Ghuck Villanova. The rest of youse can keep bashing our own team, but we’re going to be better soon and Ghuck Villanova. We better freaking remember the night they left their starters in, fouling us up 30 with less than 2 minutes left and Dixon still popping 3s. Classless bullhooey and ghuck them for it. I want to bury that rat bastard Neptune for his complete lack of class in that moment.
|
|
Elvado
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 10,495
|
Post by Elvado on Feb 28, 2024 13:59:44 GMT -5
I have maybe a little more perspective after some sleep and reading a few more posts about last night. Given: we don't have the roster to play with the top five of the BE. Made painfully obvious again last night. Expecting major growth from game 1 to game 17 is asking for more than this lineup can/will exhibit. TBS, I fluctuate between resigning myself to the fact that EC has few answers right now b/c he doesn't have the talent to play any better or worrying that EC and staff are limited in creating plays to help even a struggling roster. Given: we have a promising bunch of recruits coming in and a crucial portal season to produce a team that will be a much better indicator of what the Cooley makeover looks like Year 2. We have been talking about these 2 pretty widely-accepted assumptions forever. I want to add a third: here are the games we should have/could have won this season - Holy Cross, TCU, Seton Hall (2x), Xavier, St. John's. There's an argument on maybe one or two of these, I imagine, but there's 6 games that I think we win next year with an improved lineup. Add in a couple of surprise wins, and we have a possible 10-11 BE wins in 24-25. That is one way I will be judging the trajectory of the program in year 2 of what I am thinking of as a 3-5 year (re)build. Re: the culture of this team and the MBB program under EC & staff. I can't sum it up in a tidy word or phrase, but I can say what I see game to game. Yes, it does start at the top, and I see a coach that tells it like it is regarding the quality of play he sees but without once sacrificing any of his players or assistant coaches in the process. He talks about communicating, supporting, loving, helping out, nurturing the young men's health -- mental and physical -- and acknowledging that they are whole persons with lives on and off the court. Yeah, he has some showman in him and can sling it pretty good, but inasmuch as you can say what's in a person's heart, I appreciate what I see and hear. Pitino may have shaken his team out of a losing skid with his rant last week, but just about everyone agrees that he crossed a line that coaches of young people should not cross. (Plus, RP looks like a Sopranos character in those recent outfits. Yikes) I feel better about our guys after hearing EC during "In the huddle" and the pressers. I believe that that kind of approach pays off in big ways over time. As far as what I see on the court that to me reveals the culture of the team, I see guys playing together, supporting each other, constantly touching base throughout the game, never sniping or badmouthing a teammate. They play hard, they can grind it out, and they are becoming a team with an attitude that I think will win more BE rock fights moving forward. They looked tired and defeated last night, but that was rare. They want to win, and this season must be hard on them all. I am more than o.k. with what I see as the developing culture of this team in year 1 of EC. Lastly, I stand by my assertion that we don't suck (haha). Seriously, we aren't where we want to be, we have been buried by the top 5 of the league, but given what we're playing with and what I can realistically expect in year 1 of the Build, I am absolutely deflated and rendered emotionally paralyzed by how too many games have ended and appreciative of the process at hand, which will produce better squads each year. So, transposed into mathematics that looks like this: disheartened + appreciative = do not suck. In a fight between a Bulldawg and a freaking Musketeer, who wins? I'm with the Bulldawgs every time -- beat Xavier! Sadly a Musketeer would likely have a gun or at least a sword at his disposal. An apt metaphor for where we are talent wise— Severely out gunned.
|
|
traversb
Bulldog (over 250 posts)
Posts: 397
|
Post by traversb on Feb 28, 2024 18:39:38 GMT -5
I think the "have we improved/regressed" question, though is a much harder question to answer than it seems. Take Epps and Cook. A significant reason why they aren't having as much success now is because opposing teams are aware that they are the only real scoring threats on the team. So, opposing teams strategize around that. I am not absolving Epps or Cook of responsibility, but the fact is that everyone else is evolving/improving too. Why do people keep trying to push this narrative? What does it even mean? Just because a guy shoots too much means he’s our only (or 1 of 2) scoring threats even if he is shooting 35%? If Epps is a scoring threat than Styles and Rowan certainly are. I’m not saying they are good scoring options but they are every bit as good as Epps. Epps can do one thing at an elite level, go right and hit hit runners. You take away that and he’s done. If all you have to do is make a guy go left or even leave him wide open for 3 he’s not a scoring option. Cook has no hands and gets dominated by guys bigger than him. Basically both guys have put up good games against lesser comp and it’s fooled people. Don’t forget Rowan put up 19 when he got to play Ashworth and didn’t have Epps jacking.
|
|
traversb
Bulldog (over 250 posts)
Posts: 397
|
Post by traversb on Feb 28, 2024 18:44:11 GMT -5
Ghuck Villanova. The rest of youse can keep bashing our own team, but we’re going to be better soon and Ghuck Villanova. We better freaking remember the night they left their starters in, fouling us up 30 with less than 2 minutes left and Dixon still popping 3s. Classless bullhooey and ghuck them for it. I want to bury that rat bastard Neptune for his complete lack of class in that moment. They were missing a starter and a key rotation guy. They played Hansen and Arcidiacano 40 minutes when they average 20. They did what they could. If anyone should’ve emptied the bench it was Cooley. Villanova is trying to finish strong. We are playing with one eye on Spring Break.
|
|