guru
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Post by guru on Jan 9, 2024 21:29:51 GMT -5
The end game offense was not good, but mainly hampered by Epps having to bring the ball up when he is probably going to be the guy you want to end up shooting. Exchanges to Heath and Massoud to try to start the offense ended badly each time. Would have been a decent time to try to have Brumbaugh in to start plays, but as mentioned upthread he didn't have much luck in the first half. Tough spot where having having the ball in Epps' hands to start the offense is both a plus and a minus at the same time. It allowed Seton Hall to key on him. As SFHoya99 mentioned upthread, we wouldn't have been in the game without him. Give Seton Hall credit, they stuffed 3 offensive possessions in a row to win the game. With the game in the balance, Epps handed the ball to the other team for a fast break +1 (though he was the only reason we were even in the game so will let it slide), then Heath commits a completely insane offensive foul pushing off with 5 seconds left on our shot clock. I wouldn't give too much credit to SH. |
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Post by JohnnyJones on Jan 9, 2024 21:33:11 GMT -5
Don’t act like fouling was an obvious mistake. Not even close. Down 3 with 37.8 seconds I foul and extend the game every time. Best case by playing that out you gave the ball under your own basket down 3 with 5 seconds left. There are arguments both ways but it was not a coaching mistake to foul and extend the game. I know you and Coach Esh don’t agree. Actually, your best case scenario is incorrect. There was about a 7 second differential on the shot clock. A few things: (1) Seton Hall does not handle the ball well and had been turning it over all night. If you defend there, there's a chance Seton Hall throws the ball out of bounds, bobbles it, and then we have 20+ seconds to work for a three. By fouling, we automatically put ourselves at a 4-5 deficit, especially since we fouled a 93% free throw shooter. (2) Teams in this situation almost never let the clock run down to 0 because of the risk of a shot clock violation. Odds are that Seton Hall would have taken the shot with 10-ish seconds (and maybe even more time) left. They are also a very bad three point shooting team. So, good odds we can get the ball back and have a chance to tie with a three. What you are ignoring is that when you're down three and foul, you turn it from a 1 possession game to a 2 possession game, at which point you're essentially relying on luck to win. Sure, you "extend" the game, but you extend a game under cirucmstances you're likely to lose. The stats bear this out; fouling in that situation is not the easy call you think it is. Not luck. Just hoping for a missed free throw or two and some made shots. In your scenario, they make the shot - game over. Offensive rebound - game over. We end up eventually fouling - game likely over. We can agree to disagree on this - I would extend the game after not getting a steal right off the bat. Based on your reasoning I assume you also agreed with Esh v UConn. |
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TC
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Post by TC on Jan 9, 2024 21:33:59 GMT -5
What you are ignoring is that when you're down three and foul, you turn it from a 1 possession game to a 2 possession game, at which point you're essentially relying on luck to win. Sure, you "extend" the game, but you extend a game under cirucmstances you're likely to lose. The stats bear this out; fouling in that situation is not the easy call you think it is. You didn't have a lineup in there to defend an end-game possession though - it was Brumbaugh/Epps/Bristol/Styles/Heath because you were trying to force a trap and a turnover. And it's not like that went poorly at all - Epps hit a three, you had a two point game. The mistake probably was not picking up Dawes immediately after the three and trying to deny him so that the ball went to Addae-Wusu or Bediako - it looked like Cooley was trying to get them to do that. |
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Jan 9, 2024 21:38:47 GMT -5
I understand we have a lot of deficiencies in certain areas, but Cooley had a horrific final 3 minutes there. Didn't look like we had a plan on offense at all instead of dribbling 20 seconds off the clock with 0 movement and being unable to even make a simple first pass to start a play. Subbing in a cold and ineffective Massoud and putting him in a position where has to put the ball on the floor had disaster written all over it. Not denying the inbounds twice to a 93% FT shooter or at the very least trapping him to force him to give it up tells me either it wasn't in the scouting report or that we weren't prepared to execute it. Neither is good. Can't keep giving away games like this. Not asking for the world at the snap of a finger here but you gotta show some tangible results and evidence of progress at some point. Cooley in his post game presser admitted that he crashed the plane. But I also think the Massoud sub is what 95% of coaches would have done. You were down 3 with under 2 minutes to play. He subbed Massoud for Bristol to get another 3 point shooter on the court. It didn't work. But A LOT of coaches would've made that substitution in a huge possession down 3 even if Massoud had been awful up to that point. Who would you rather have shoot a 3 between Bristol and Massoud if the opportunity presented itself? As for the fouling at the end, the coaches were ballistic. Especially Blaney that they fouled Dawes instead of trapping...BOTH TIMES. So while the coaches deserve the blame for it happening on their watch, I don't doubt that the message was delivered properly but not executed properly. As for Massoud, I know he's supposed to be a three point specialist and he did pretty well last year at Kansas State in limited minutes. But, so far he's shooting 32.1% from three overall, 4-18, 22.2% in Big East games. One can say it's a small sample, but at some point you need to acknowledge he just doesn't have it. The other issue is that Massoud never seems to go to the corners, if he's a three point specialist why not? He's also horrible at twos, shooting 27% which puts him in about the 3rd percentile nationally. And he doesn't rebpound well at all. Georgetown seems to specialize in "three point specialists" who cannot shoot. Nikita Meshcheryakov, Stephen Domingo, Reggie Cameron, now Massoud. We only need one more (I am sure I am forgetting somebody), and we can field a whole lineup of three point specialists who cannot shoot threes well. |
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Post by RockawayHoya on Jan 9, 2024 21:43:03 GMT -5
I understand we have a lot of deficiencies in certain areas, but Cooley had a horrific final 3 minutes there. Didn't look like we had a plan on offense at all instead of dribbling 20 seconds off the clock with 0 movement and being unable to even make a simple first pass to start a play. Subbing in a cold and ineffective Massoud and putting him in a position where has to put the ball on the floor had disaster written all over it. Not denying the inbounds twice to a 93% FT shooter or at the very least trapping him to force him to give it up tells me either it wasn't in the scouting report or that we weren't prepared to execute it. Neither is good. Can't keep giving away games like this. Not asking for the world at the snap of a finger here but you gotta show some tangible results and evidence of progress at some point. Cooley in his post game presser admitted that he crashed the plane. But I also think the Massoud sub is what 95% of coaches would have done. You were down 3 with under 2 minutes to play. He subbed Massoud for Bristol to get another 3 point shooter on the court. It didn't work. But A LOT of coaches would've made that substitution in a huge possession down 3 even if Massoud had been awful up to that point. Who would you rather have shoot a 3 between Bristol and Massoud if the opportunity presented itself? As for the fouling at the end, the coaches were ballistic. Especially Blaney that they fouled Dawes instead of trapping...BOTH TIMES. So while the coaches deserve the blame for it happening on their watch, I don't doubt that the message was delivered properly but not executed properly. Yep, and that's already a step over the last coach who would've eagerly thrown his team under the bus. Re: Massoud vs. Bristol, I may agree with you if its final 20-30 seconds and you may only get one quality shot for a tie. But not with 2 minutes to go. You still have to worry about defensive possessions at that point and you don't necessarily need a 3 at that juncture. I think Massoud is sub 30% FG after tonight for the year and 3pt% isn't much better. The fact we are even debating who should be on the floor in this scenario is alarming. |
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Jan 9, 2024 21:50:48 GMT -5
Georgetown seems to specialize in "three point specialists" who cannot shoot. Nikita Meshcheryakov, Stephen Domingo, Reggie Cameron, now Massoud. We only need one more (I am sure I am forgetting somebody), and we can field a whole lineup of three point specialists who cannot shoot threes well. I don't know if he qualifies, but I feel like Sead Dizdarevic could sit in until someone better comes along. |
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daveg023
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Post by daveg023 on Jan 9, 2024 21:59:10 GMT -5
Georgetown seems to specialize in "three point specialists" who cannot shoot. Nikita Meshcheryakov, Stephen Domingo, Reggie Cameron, now Massoud. We only need one more (I am sure I am forgetting somebody), and we can field a whole lineup of three point specialists who cannot shoot threes well. I don't know if he qualifies, but I feel like Sead Dizdarevic could sit in until someone better comes along. Kaiden Rice says hello. |
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Jan 9, 2024 22:00:40 GMT -5
I don't know if he qualifies, but I feel like Sead Dizdarevic could sit in until someone better comes along. Kaiden Rice says hello. Much better. EDIT: although, he could shoot. He was just the worst defender ever. |
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DanMcQ
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Post by DanMcQ on Jan 9, 2024 22:04:31 GMT -5
That offensive foul call on Heath was one of the biggest flops I’ve seen in a while. Yellow card worthy on the soccer pitch. |
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Jan 9, 2024 22:14:45 GMT -5
Much better. EDIT: although, he could shoot. He was just the worst defender ever. I considered Rice, but he shot 36.8%, so I thought that was good enough to warrant excluding him from the All Time 3 Point Non-Specialist List. Though I do believe Ewing pre-seaoson compared his shooting ability to some NBA greats, if I am not mistaken. Rice was also hugely streaky, too. At times he'd knock down shot after shot, and then other times none. So at least you could play the hot hand when he was making shots. Massoud's hand hasn't been hot. I feel bad dumping on the guy because he seems like a nice guy and I am sure his experience helps in practice. But, he's killing us, and it's alarming to me that we start every game with him playing aside Cook, which at least tonight, caused us in part to get into major holes at the beginning of each half. Massoud's role off the bench worked last year at Kansas State. He's better suited to that role. In Massoud's defense, he's being forced to do more this year because of our lack of depth. But, he's struggling in basically every way. And he's going to play no matter what we do because of the lack of depth. But, at this point, I think you really cannot play him much anymore unless his three point shooting magically comes back. |
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daveg023
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Post by daveg023 on Jan 9, 2024 22:16:39 GMT -5
Much better. EDIT: although, he could shoot. He was just the worst defender ever. I considered Rice, but he shot 36.8%, so I thought that was good enough to warrant inclusion. Though I do believe Ewing pre-seaoson compared his shooting ability to some NBA greats, if I am not mistaken. Rice was also hugely streaky, too. At times he'd knock down shot after shot, and then other times none. So at least you could play the hot hand when he was making shots. Massoud's hand hasn't been hot. I feel bad dumping on the guy because he seems like a nice guy and I am sure his experience helps in practice. But, he's killing us, and it's alarming to me that we start every game with him playing aside Cook, which at least tonight, caused us in part to get into major holes at the beginning of each half. Massoud's role off the bench worked last year at Kansas State. He's better suited to that role. In Massoud's defense, he's being forced to do more this year because of our lack of depth. But, he's struggling in basically every way. And he's going to play no matter what we do because of the lack of depth. But, at this point, I think you really cannot play him much anymore unless his three point shooting magically comes back. In his defense he has a good looking stroke and his misses are usually not off by much. When he takes a shot it has the look of a make. |
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Jan 9, 2024 22:19:07 GMT -5
I considered Rice, but he shot 36.8%, so I thought that was good enough to warrant inclusion. Though I do believe Ewing pre-seaoson compared his shooting ability to some NBA greats, if I am not mistaken. Rice was also hugely streaky, too. At times he'd knock down shot after shot, and then other times none. So at least you could play the hot hand when he was making shots. Massoud's hand hasn't been hot. I feel bad dumping on the guy because he seems like a nice guy and I am sure his experience helps in practice. But, he's killing us, and it's alarming to me that we start every game with him playing aside Cook, which at least tonight, caused us in part to get into major holes at the beginning of each half. Massoud's role off the bench worked last year at Kansas State. He's better suited to that role. In Massoud's defense, he's being forced to do more this year because of our lack of depth. But, he's struggling in basically every way. And he's going to play no matter what we do because of the lack of depth. But, at this point, I think you really cannot play him much anymore unless his three point shooting magically comes back. In his defense he has a good looking stroke and his misses are usually not off by much. When he takes a shot it has the look of a make. I agree. But it was troubling that tonight he got a few wide open looks and still missed. I don't know what's going on. It could be that last year was a statistical aberration. Last year, Massoud shot 41.8% from three. But his freshman year he shot 34%, sophomore year 33.3%, and this year 32.1%. Right now, last year looks like the outlier. Kansas State was also a much better team than we are, so I imagine a much higher percentage of his shots were good looks than this year. He may have also logged more time against the weaker lineups of opponents since his playing time was limited. As far as his abysmal 2 point shooting, he just should not take them anymore unless it's a wide open layup or dunk. He's never been good at twos. 27% this year is his worst ever, but his other three years were 34%, 40%, and 33.9%. |
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iowa80
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Post by iowa80 on Jan 9, 2024 22:24:52 GMT -5
I understand we have a lot of deficiencies in certain areas, but Cooley had a horrific final 3 minutes there. Didn't look like we had a plan on offense at all instead of dribbling 20 seconds off the clock with 0 movement and being unable to even make a simple first pass to start a play. Subbing in a cold and ineffective Massoud and putting him in a position where has to put the ball on the floor had disaster written all over it. Not denying the inbounds twice to a 93% FT shooter or at the very least trapping him to force him to give it up tells me either it wasn't in the scouting report or that we weren't prepared to execute it. Neither is good. Can't keep giving away games like this. Not asking for the world at the snap of a finger here but you gotta show some tangible results and evidence of progress at some point. Completely agree - we had a 3 point lead with under 3 minutes to play, and a series of ghastly turnovers and one-man-show offensive sets then handed the game to Seton Hall. Cooley is being paid to win games like this - an undermanned team (that did not come out ready to play in any way shape or form) battled back to take the lead against a good team, and then completely collapsed in the final 2 minutes. That's on the coach. Disappointing. I guess Cooley gets no credit for the fact that they "battled back" after an awful start. The fact of the matter is that his decision to go with Bristol, especially on D, helped to turn the game around. And I'm unclear how boneheaded turnovers and a foolish charge are on the coach. I understand that whining about the refs is the loser's cry, but the foul call on Dawes in the lane with our three point lead (clearly all ball) may well have decided the game. |
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astrohoya
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Post by astrohoya on Jan 9, 2024 22:30:54 GMT -5
Fouling in the situation they did was inexcusable. Fouling is a desperation tactic and should only really be used if it is the only way to get the ball back. Even if you think they didn’t have enough time to play it out (completely disagree), you have enough time to force them to give it to a FT shooter who doesn’t shoot 93%.
How much of the slow start is a suboptimal lineup? I think we mostly agree that Massoud serves no purpose if he isn’t making threes. Well, he hasn’t really made threes all year. We made our runs with him off the floor, and I would like to see some minutes shifting. The next two games are sadly essentially write offs, so we could at least experiment a little.
Nothing we do seems to stop the parade of layups, and that is a huge red flag for the program.
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Post by x-centercourt400s on Jan 9, 2024 22:46:20 GMT -5
Sorry to pile on him since he seems like a nice, well intentioned teammate, but I think its also a big problem when Massoud tries to take a leadership role and then completely can't follow up with on the court results.
He's always taking the lead in team on the court discussions and huddles and good for him for trying the help the team that way. But when a vocal leader totally fails to back up his words with positive actions and worse actually is a major negative both offensively and defensively, it has to confuse and disorient the other younger members of the team and seemingly has led to a crisis in on the court leadership.
This team has little to no margin for error, and this situation is eroding the limited confidence they seem to have. Massoud needs to get his minutes reduced and let the other players figure more prominently in leadership roles.
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Post by michaelgrahmstylie on Jan 9, 2024 22:56:13 GMT -5
Close! Ever so close!
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drquigley
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Post by drquigley on Jan 9, 2024 23:26:19 GMT -5
Watching other games on TV tonight I can’t help but think that with another 5,000+ fans in the arena we win this game. With all the talk about the move to Potomac Yards I think the negative effect of playing before 4,000 fans in an 18,000 seat arena has been really underestimated. Not that it matters now, or in the recent past, but going forward we really suffer without that home court advantage
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Post by madmike on Jan 9, 2024 23:48:41 GMT -5
Massoud is an absolute disaster for this team, particularly when he’s playing alongside Cook. Most of the period when we went down 24-8 both of them were in. Same at the beginning of the second half. Then for some inexplicable reason, Cooley puts him in at the end and he immediately coughs it up. He doesn’t make threes, he cannot defend, and he cannot make twos. So why is he starting? He’s killing us. I am going to do a more in depth post about lineups, but right now Massoud needs to mostly sit. That’s a big part of why we lost tonight. While I generally have given Cooley the benefit of the doubt he did two really stupid things tonight: putting in Massoud in the end, and fouling when down by 3. I’m glad we fought back from the 16 point deficit but that isn’t good enough. We need to win some games. agree 1000% He's completely useless if he isn't making 3's and he hasn't done it. He needs to shoot 50% from three to see the floor. He is a terrible rebounder, defender and is incredibly slow. If he heats up there is a role for him but not as a starter |
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Post by madmike on Jan 9, 2024 23:50:40 GMT -5
Watching other games on TV tonight I can’t help but think that with another 5,000+ fans in the arena we win this game. With all the talk about the move to Potomac Yards I think the negative effect of playing before 4,000 fans in an 18,000 seat arena has been really underestimated. Not that it matters now, or in the recent past, but going forward we really suffer without that home court advantage We should play on campus it would be less embarrassing on national tv. At least it would look and sound full |
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Post by bearsandbulls on Jan 9, 2024 23:53:30 GMT -5
In his defense he has a good looking stroke and his misses are usually not off by much. When he takes a shot it has the look of a make. I agree. But it was troubling that tonight he got a few wide open looks and still missed. I don't know what's going on. It could be that last year was a statistical aberration. Last year, Massoud shot 41.8% from three. But his freshman year he shot 34%, sophomore year 33.3%, and this year 32.1%. Right now, last year looks like the outlier. Kansas State was also a much better team than we are, so I imagine a much higher percentage of his shots were good looks than this year. He may have also logged more time against the weaker lineups of opponents since his playing time was limited. As far as his abysmal 2 point shooting, he just should not take them anymore unless it's a wide open layup or dunk. He's never been good at twos. 27% this year is his worst ever, but his other three years were 34%, 40%, and 33.9%. We have a number of players who should be doing nothing but catch and shoot. Simple as that. They are not ball handlers at all. Nor are they passers. How many assists do either Massoud or Heath have. Both, if open, and delivered the ball crisply can be good 3 point shooters---that is the ONLY thing they do. Defense, nah! Rebounds, nah! Any time Heath handles the ball, I cringe. Massoud has never learned how to deliver a crisp pass. Epps did so much that you kind of overlook the TO near the end, but the other two--yikes. This is a game we should have won...I remember a quote from a few weeks back by the announcers from EC: "Get me close with 3 minutes to go and I will coach you home." Well, tonight he had a lead with 3 to go, and it did not happen. Really too bad....I will also say this team is playing better than anything I saw last year with Ewing....Had we gone down 15 in the first half with PE, we might as well have started the bus up. |
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