Georgetown - Seton Hall 1/9/23 Discussion

[thedragon]

Jan 9, 2024 20:43:42 GMT -5 SDHoya said:

Couldn’t watch due to work. Did something happen to Rowan?

He look overmatched by SH guards early.

And then both the latter part of the 1st half and most of the 2nd after the first 5 minutes we played a lineup of Epps. Heath. Bristol. Styles. Fielder. It led both comebacks.

[hoyaroc]

Bristol needs to start. Epps is keeping us in games. Need more from Styles and Heath. Supreme is a beast.

[HoyaFanNY]

Jan 9, 2024 20:42:32 GMT -5 hoyasaxa2003 said:

Massoud is an absolute disaster for this team, particularly when he’s playing alongside Cook. Most of the period when we went down 24-8 both of them were in. Same at the beginning of the second half.

Then for some inexplicable reason, Cooley puts him in at the end and he immediately coughs it up. He doesn’t make threes, he cannot defend, and he cannot make twos. So why is he starting? He’s killing us.

I am going to do a more in depth post about lineups, but right now Massoud needs to mostly sit. That’s a big part of why we lost tonight. While I generally have given Cooley the benefit of the doubt he did two really stupid things tonight: putting in Massoud in the end, and fouling when down by 3.

I’m glad we fought back from the 16 point deficit but that isn’t good enough. We need to win some games.

agree 1000%
He's completely useless if he isn't making 3's and he hasn't done it.

[saxagael]

Jan 9, 2024 20:43:42 GMT -5 SDHoya said:

Couldn’t watch due to work. Did something happen to Rowan?

No idea. Seemed healthy, but pulled quickly to put Heath in who struggled defensively who was 2 of 8 from 3 and added a little here in there, but defense hurt the Hoyas.

Hoping post game presser there is some insight.

[hoyaguy]

Jan 9, 2024 20:46:27 GMT -5 HoyaFanNY said:

Jan 9, 2024 20:42:32 GMT -5 hoyasaxa2003 said:

Massoud is an absolute disaster for this team, particularly when he’s playing alongside Cook. Most of the period when we went down 24-8 both of them were in. Same at the beginning of the second half.

Then for some inexplicable reason, Cooley puts him in at the end and he immediately coughs it up. He doesn’t make threes, he cannot defend, and he cannot make twos. So why is he starting? He’s killing us.

I am going to do a more in depth post about lineups, but right now Massoud needs to mostly sit. That’s a big part of why we lost tonight. While I generally have given Cooley the benefit of the doubt he did two really stupid things tonight: putting in Massoud in the end, and fouling when down by 3.

I’m glad we fought back from the 16 point deficit but that isn’t good enough. We need to win some games.

agree 1000%
He's completely useless if he isn't making 3's and he hasn't done it.

It really has to be studied how nice of a return game he had against TCU and now just nothing. Fielder and Bristol playing more is what I want to see. 

Obviously still have two months of the season left and I trust Cooley and the staff to get transfers to fill whatever gaps they think need filling for next season 

[RockawayHoya]

I understand we have a lot of deficiencies in certain areas, but Cooley had a horrific final 3 minutes there.

Didn't look like we had a plan on offense at all instead of dribbling 20 seconds off the clock with 0 movement and being unable to even make a simple first pass to start a play. Subbing in a cold and ineffective Massoud and putting him in a position where has to put the ball on the floor had disaster written all over it. Not denying the inbounds twice to a 93% FT shooter or at the very least trapping him to force him to give it up tells me either it wasn't in the scouting report or that we weren't prepared to execute it. Neither is good.

Can't keep giving away games like this. Not asking for the world at the snap of a finger here but you gotta show some tangible results and evidence of progress at some point.

[Elvado]

Jan 9, 2024 20:43:42 GMT -5 SDHoya said:

Couldn’t watch due to work. Did something happen to Rowan?

Thank your boss.

Just brutal.

[SFHoya99]

Don't mind me, I'm just here for the absurd Epps slander.

He just scored 30 points in 23 possessions used, dished 5 assists to one turnover, and should have had 2 or so more since the team missed at least 4 open wide threes on dishes from him. But sure, it's his fault that Dontrez Styles disappears or that Ishmael Massoud can't play basketball at all.

I've never seen so much blamed on one player who played so well.

[JohnnyJones]

Jan 9, 2024 20:42:32 GMT -5 hoyasaxa2003 said:

Massoud is an absolute disaster for this team, particularly when he’s playing alongside Cook. Most of the period when we went down 24-8 both of them were in. Same at the beginning of the second half.

Then for some inexplicable reason, Cooley puts him in at the end and he immediately coughs it up. He doesn’t make threes, he cannot defend, and he cannot make twos. So why is he starting? He’s killing us.

I am going to do a more in depth post about lineups, but right now Massoud needs to mostly sit. That’s a big part of why we lost tonight. While I generally have given Cooley the benefit of the doubt he did two really stupid things tonight: putting in Massoud in the end, and fouling when down by 3.

I’m glad we fought back from the 16 point deficit but that isn’t good enough. We need to win some games.

Don’t act like fouling was an obvious mistake. Not even close. Down 3 with 37.8 seconds I foul and extend the game every time. Best case by playing that out you gave the ball under your own basket down 3 with 5 seconds left. There are arguments both ways but it was not a coaching mistake to foul and extend the game. I know you and Coach Esh don’t agree.

[DanMcQ]

The end game offense was not good, but mainly hampered by Epps having to bring the ball up when he is probably going to be the guy you want to end up shooting. Exchanges to Heath and Massoud to try to start the offense ended badly each time. Would have been a decent time to try to have Brumbaugh in to start plays, but as mentioned upthread he didn't have much luck in the first half. Tough spot where having having the ball in Epps' hands to start the offense is both a plus and a minus at the same time. It allowed Seton Hall to key on him. As SFHoya99 mentioned upthread, we wouldn't have been in the game without him. Give Seton Hall credit, they stuffed 3 offensive possessions in a row to win the game.

[LoudSoundOfREBOUND]

There's a certain point in the season when you concede (barring a miraculous BET run), you will not be in the tourney and it becomes in your best interest to start coaching for next year. This likely means shifting the minutes away from the guys graduating/leaving (note: not fully benching) and you start getting younger guys (guys who may start next year) more minutes and experience together. I think/hope we're starting to see that shift and the on-court performance seems to also support it.

[daveg023]

Jan 9, 2024 20:54:16 GMT -5 RockawayHoya said:

I understand we have a lot of deficiencies in certain areas, but Cooley had a horrific final 3 minutes there.

Didn't look like we had a plan on offense at all instead of dribbling 20 seconds off the clock with 0 movement and being unable to even make a simple first pass to start a play. Subbing in a cold and ineffective Massoud and putting him in a position where has to put the ball on the floor had disaster written all over it. Not denying the inbounds twice to a 93% FT shooter or at the very least trapping him to force him to give it up tells me either it wasn't in the scouting report or that we weren't prepared to execute it. Neither is good.

Can't keep giving away games like this. Not asking for the world at the snap of a finger here but you gotta show some tangible results and evidence of progress at some point.

Don’t disagree with your points on the final 3 mins but I think Cooley’s coaching got us back into a game we would have lost by 25 last year. The move to zone, the insertion of Bristol, etc.

Yes some of it our own doing, but they shot 20% better than us and yet still it was a game. We are looking at one miss from them and one extra make from us and it’s a different story. Not only did we dig out of the 16 point hole, but we also were about to get boat raced to start the second half as they quickly built up a 12 point lead, and we managed to right the ship then too.

[hoyaroc]

Jan 9, 2024 20:58:31 GMT -5 LoudSoundOfREBOUND said:

There's a certain point in the season when you concede (barring a miraculous BET run), you will not be in the tourney and it becomes in your best interest to start coaching for next year. This likely means shifting the minutes away from the guys graduating/leaving (note: not fully benching) and you start getting younger guys (guys who may start next year) more minutes and experience together. I think/hope we're starting to see that shift and the on-court performance seems to also support it.

Cooley is bringing in some dawg next year it’s doesn’t matter just play ball.

[DFW HOYA]

Jan 9, 2024 20:58:31 GMT -5 LoudSoundOfREBOUND said:

There's a certain point in the season when you concede (barring a miraculous BET run), you will not be in the tourney and it becomes in your best interest to start coaching for next year. This likely means shifting the minutes away from the guys graduating/leaving (note: not fully benching) and you start getting younger guys (guys who may start next year) more minutes and experience together. I think/hope we're starting to see that shift and the on-court performance seems to also support it.

That works if you have depth and this team doesn't. Cooley is not playing Ryan Mutombo, Jon Kazor, or Hashem Asadallah. Cam Bacote and Austin Montgomery are not high-Division I players. You're left with with eight players and hope at least five are healthy and come to play. Styles finished 1 for 4, Massoud 1 for 7 and Brumbaugh could not cover Dawes.

[hoyasaxa2003]

Jan 9, 2024 20:56:56 GMT -5 JohnnyJones said:

Jan 9, 2024 20:42:32 GMT -5 hoyasaxa2003 said:

Massoud is an absolute disaster for this team, particularly when he’s playing alongside Cook. Most of the period when we went down 24-8 both of them were in. Same at the beginning of the second half.

Then for some inexplicable reason, Cooley puts him in at the end and he immediately coughs it up. He doesn’t make threes, he cannot defend, and he cannot make twos. So why is he starting? He’s killing us.

I am going to do a more in depth post about lineups, but right now Massoud needs to mostly sit. That’s a big part of why we lost tonight. While I generally have given Cooley the benefit of the doubt he did two really stupid things tonight: putting in Massoud in the end, and fouling when down by 3.

I’m glad we fought back from the 16 point deficit but that isn’t good enough. We need to win some games.

Don’t act like fouling was an obvious mistake. Not even close. Down 3 with 37.8 seconds I foul and extend the game every time. Best case by playing that out you gave the ball under your own basket down 3 with 5 seconds left. There are arguments both ways but it was not a coaching mistake to foul and extend the game. I know you and Coach Esh don’t agree.

Actually, your best case scenario is incorrect. There was about a 7 second differential on the shot clock. A few things:

(1) Seton Hall does not handle the ball well and had been turning it over all night. If you defend there, there's a chance Seton Hall throws the ball out of bounds, bobbles it, and then we have 20+ seconds to work for a three. By fouling, we automatically put ourselves at a 4-5 deficit, especially since we fouled a 93% free throw shooter.

(2) Teams in this situation almost never let the clock run down to 0 because of the risk of a shot clock violation. Odds are that Seton Hall would have taken the shot with 10-ish seconds (and maybe even more time) left. They are also a very bad three point shooting team. So, good odds we can get the ball back and have a chance to tie with a three.

What you are ignoring is that when you're down three and foul, you turn it from a 1 possession game to a 2 possession game, at which point you're essentially relying on luck to win. Sure, you "extend" the game, but you extend a game under cirucmstances you're likely to lose. The stats bear this out; fouling in that situation is not the easy call you think it is.

[DanMcQ]

Jan 9, 2024 20:54:16 GMT -5 RockawayHoya said:

I understand we have a lot of deficiencies in certain areas, but Cooley had a horrific final 3 minutes there.

"3 straight turnovers, that's 1000% on me." -Ed Cooley

[SFHoya99]

Jan 9, 2024 21:10:54 GMT -5 hoyaroc said:

Cooley is bringing in some dawg next year it’s doesn’t matter just play ball.

There's still five guys on this team who are going to be contributors next year and likely the core of the team.

I think you've got to play to win here, but I'm not sure some of the older players really help you.

[thedragon]

Jan 9, 2024 20:54:16 GMT -5 RockawayHoya said:

I understand we have a lot of deficiencies in certain areas, but Cooley had a horrific final 3 minutes there.

Didn't look like we had a plan on offense at all instead of dribbling 20 seconds off the clock with 0 movement and being unable to even make a simple first pass to start a play. Subbing in a cold and ineffective Massoud and putting him in a position where has to put the ball on the floor had disaster written all over it. Not denying the inbounds twice to a 93% FT shooter or at the very least trapping him to force him to give it up tells me either it wasn't in the scouting report or that we weren't prepared to execute it. Neither is good.

Can't keep giving away games like this. Not asking for the world at the snap of a finger here but you gotta show some tangible results and evidence of progress at some point.

Cooley in his post game presser admitted that he crashed the plane. But I also think the Massoud sub is what 95% of coaches would have done. You were down 3 with under 2 minutes to play. He subbed Massoud for Bristol to get another 3 point shooter on the court. It didn't work. But A LOT of coaches would've made that substitution in a huge possession down 3 even if Massoud had been awful up to that point. Who would you rather have shoot a 3 between Bristol and Massoud if the opportunity presented itself?

As for the fouling at the end, the coaches were ballistic. Especially Blaney that they fouled Dawes instead of trapping...BOTH TIMES. So while the coaches deserve the blame for it happening on their watch, I don't doubt that the message was delivered properly but not executed properly.

[LoudSoundOfREBOUND]

Jan 9, 2024 21:13:16 GMT -5 DFW HOYA said:

Jan 9, 2024 20:58:31 GMT -5 LoudSoundOfREBOUND said:

There's a certain point in the season when you concede (barring a miraculous BET run), you will not be in the tourney and it becomes in your best interest to start coaching for next year. This likely means shifting the minutes away from the guys graduating/leaving (note: not fully benching) and you start getting younger guys (guys who may start next year) more minutes and experience together. I think/hope we're starting to see that shift and the on-court performance seems to also support it.

That works if you have depth and this team doesn't. Cooley is not playing Ryan Mutombo, Jon Kazor, or Hashem Asadallah. Cam Bacote and Austin Montgomery are not high-Division I players. You're left with with eight players and hope at least five are healthy and come to play. Styles finished 1 for 4, Massoud 1 for 7 and Brumbaugh could not cover Dawes.

No argument here. I'm also referring to going forward, vs this particular game. The eight he plays are probably the eight that should play. Unsure of the years for Kazor, Asadallah, and Montgomery but I don't expect them to be key parts of next year's rotation so it clearly doesn't make sense to throw them in now. I'm more so speaking to the minutes allocation for the guys that are already playing. Specifically, if he wanted to reduce (again, not fully bench) the minutes of Heath and Massoud (we've already seen them all but disappear for Bacote) for the likes of Fielder and Brumbaugh the prospects for next year provide just one more reason to do so. I realize they are getting plenty of minutes as is- and it feels like Fielder, in particular is getting more time- which is why I say I think it may already be happening. Intentionally or unintentionally.

[guru]

Jan 9, 2024 20:54:16 GMT -5 RockawayHoya said:

I understand we have a lot of deficiencies in certain areas, but Cooley had a horrific final 3 minutes there.

Didn't look like we had a plan on offense at all instead of dribbling 20 seconds off the clock with 0 movement and being unable to even make a simple first pass to start a play. Subbing in a cold and ineffective Massoud and putting him in a position where has to put the ball on the floor had disaster written all over it. Not denying the inbounds twice to a 93% FT shooter or at the very least trapping him to force him to give it up tells me either it wasn't in the scouting report or that we weren't prepared to execute it. Neither is good.

Can't keep giving away games like this. Not asking for the world at the snap of a finger here but you gotta show some tangible results and evidence of progress at some point.

Completely agree - we had a 3 point lead with under 3 minutes to play, and a series of ghastly turnovers and one-man-show offensive sets then handed the game to Seton Hall. Cooley is being paid to win games like this - an undermanned team (that did not come out ready to play in any way shape or form) battled back to take the lead against a good team, and then completely collapsed in the final 2 minutes. That's on the coach. Disappointing.