calhoya
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Post by calhoya on Mar 22, 2023 15:05:59 GMT -5
I think the most important thing Cooley can do this year is rebuild the culture around the team. We need to build that expectation of hard work on the court, in practice, in improvement. We need to build a strong sense of teamwork as well. On team performance over individual numbers. That does not mean you can't get talent, but we are not going to get OR retain the talent you'd need to win anything at this stage. Build a team where players play for each other and want to be. I'm not saying any of these guys won't want that or won't do that. I don't know them, and I don't know how they'd function in a functional program with a real plan. So I want to make that caveat. This isn't about Speirs or Murray or anyone specifically, because maybe the on court elements that I saw from them that wouldn't fit in a successful team were not how they'd play in a well coached team. But there's no amount of talent I would take this year over building that culture. None. (And while there's talented players on this team ... it's not that talented.) You can't win if you don't defend. It's very hard to have an elite offense if no one can pass. Talent is important, but setting the standard of effort and teamwork is far more important. Agree with this that building a "team" is more important than recruiting stars. We like to criticize the talent levels of Ewing's teams but I never thought the problem was talent as much as chemistry and "fit" with the other players on the court. No shortage of 4* and 5* players in the Ewing years. But with the exception of the team that gelled around Pickett, Blair and Bile in the last part of the season 4 (along with Wahab and Harris), there was never anything that resembled a team where the parts actually fit. I would like to see what Cooley or another competent coach could do with last year's team. In particular though I think that it will be interesting to see what Cooley could do with Akok, a seemingly talented kid who for whatever reason never really became part of the offense. Also would like to see Heath in an offense which gave him more open looks and emphasized ball movement over iso play. Also think that Riley and Bristol could grow into valuable role players and still believe that there is more to Ryan than what we have seen. |
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Omega
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Post by Omega on Mar 22, 2023 15:46:57 GMT -5
Well none of those players except for Riley ha e declared yet, so they must be waiting to talk to coach. Akok is a keeper!
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Mar 22, 2023 15:57:45 GMT -5
Agree with this that building a "team" is more important than recruiting stars. We like to criticize the talent levels of Ewing's teams but I never thought the problem was talent as much as chemistry and "fit" with the other players on the court. No shortage of 4* and 5* players in the Ewing years. But with the exception of the team that gelled around Pickett, Blair and Bile in the last part of the season 4 (along with Wahab and Harris), there was never anything that resembled a team where the parts actually fit. I would like to see what Cooley or another competent coach could do with last year's team. In particular though I think that it will be interesting to see what Cooley could do with Akok, a seemingly talented kid who for whatever reason never really became part of the offense. Also would like to see Heath in an offense which gave him more open looks and emphasized ball movement over iso play. Also think that Riley and Bristol could grow into valuable role players and still believe that there is more to Ryan than what we have seen. And it's not to say talent is unimportant. But teams that win both have talent AND play together, play hard, play cohesively. We haven't had that. We need to build a culture where that is the expectation, and then most players who come in will have bought in but also be influenced by it. I think building that culture is vital, and if you have guys on the roster who don't buy into it, it's really hard to build it. |
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Post by hoyasaxaphone on Mar 22, 2023 16:12:27 GMT -5
I agree with the posts above that:
1. We need to establish a culture. That means, IMHO, jettisoning those players who came in as mercenaries promised roles and minutes. Murray would be at the top of my list to see leave. I cringe at his attitude and behavior - particularly in the wake of the NIL dollars he is rumored to be pulling down. I am fine with Akok and Bristol staying - plus any of our recruited Freshmen.
2. We need to actually have a team where the sum of the parts is greater than the individual pieces. This is where Cooley's views on what kind of players he wants is critical. If we have some of those pieces, maybe we keep them - but not at the expense of culture. Otherwise, the portal is wide open and Cooley is already working it hard.
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Post by professorhoya on Mar 22, 2023 16:39:57 GMT -5
In all likelihood we keep 33% of the team.
This is usually the formula when taking over a losing culture.
Look to your left, look to your right, those players will be gone.
You just don’t want too many players with a negative losing finger pointing mentality as that can be a cancer no matter their ability.
Cooley also wants players that fit his system and scheme. So there’s a certain Type of player athletically, physically, skillwise and mentally that he’s looking for. So he’s looking for that fit on weather to retain a player. Probably lol looking at the type of Player he had at Providence will be a good predictor of what he wants
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Post by x-centercourt400s on Mar 22, 2023 17:10:36 GMT -5
I agree with the posts above that: 1. We need to establish a culture. That means, IMHO, jettisoning those players who came in as mercenaries promised roles and minutes. Murray would be at the top of my list to see leave. I cringe at his attitude and behavior - particularly in the wake of the NIL dollars he is rumored to be pulling down. I am fine with Akok and Bristol staying - plus any of our recruited Freshmen. 2. We need to actually have a team where the sum of the parts is greater than the individual pieces. This is where Cooley's views on what kind of players he wants is critical. If we have some of those pieces, maybe we keep them - but not at the expense of culture. Otherwise, the portal is wide open and Cooley is already working it hard. I get where Murray comes off poorly sometimes. His body language is weird at best, and because of it he projects a lazy, whining image sometimes. Despite that, I think he's a pretty good guy and has the possibility to be a very good player, given the right coaching. A quick story to illustrate my point that he's a better man than sometimes comes across on tv. During one home game in January right before halftime (I could have some details wrong, it was a tough season to attend games in), Murray, finishing a play, crashed into the cameraman under the basket, knocking him back and down, to the point that the guy was visibly shaken up. Murray immediately reached out to him said something, then got back to the final seconds of play. The half ended and as the team left its bench to walk off the court, Murray jogged back across the court again, straight to the camera guy, bent down and spoke to him, obviously checking again that he was ok. Nobody told Murray to do it and I'm sure no one expected it, but he was nice enough to go back and check on the guy. This was after the half, no cameras were watching him, no other players or coaches were with him. Just him looking out for a fellow human being. I was impressed and it altered my perception of him for the remainder of the season. I'm hoping he stays and that Cooley is the right coach to bring out the best in him. |
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hoyas315
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Post by hoyas315 on Mar 22, 2023 19:21:27 GMT -5
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Post by professorhoya on Mar 22, 2023 23:50:51 GMT -5
The other thing is he has already scouted all our players for Two games if not more and coached against them.
So he can make a quick and accurate assessment of who he thinks fits his system and then hit the ground running on the Portal to field the best team that can win next year.
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bluechi
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Post by bluechi on Mar 23, 2023 5:30:45 GMT -5
Well none of those players except for Riley ha e declared yet, so they must be waiting to talk to coach. Akok is a keeper! Can you clarify what is meant by declared. Because we hear this person has entered the transfer portal is there a difference between declaring and entering the portal? |
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bluechi
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Post by bluechi on Mar 23, 2023 5:32:29 GMT -5
I mentioned last week that anglin seems like an ed cooley guy. We'll see  |
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bluechi
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Post by bluechi on Mar 23, 2023 5:35:56 GMT -5
I agree with the posts above that: 1. We need to establish a culture. That means, IMHO, jettisoning those players who came in as mercenaries promised roles and minutes. Murray would be at the top of my list to see leave. I cringe at his attitude and behavior - particularly in the wake of the NIL dollars he is rumored to be pulling down. I am fine with Akok and Bristol staying - plus any of our recruited Freshmen. 2. We need to actually have a team where the sum of the parts is greater than the individual pieces. This is where Cooley's views on what kind of players he wants is critical. If we have some of those pieces, maybe we keep them - but not at the expense of culture. Otherwise, the portal is wide open and Cooley is already working it hard. I get where Murray comes off poorly sometimes. His body language is weird at best, and because of it he projects a lazy, whining image sometimes. Despite that, I think he's a pretty good guy and has the possibility to be a very good player, given the right coaching. A quick story to illustrate my point that he's a better man than sometimes comes across on tv. During one home game in January right before halftime (I could have some details wrong, it was a tough season to attend games in), Murray, finishing a play, crashed into the cameraman under the basket, knocking him back and down, to the point that the guy was visibly shaken up. Murray immediately reached out to him said something, then got back to the final seconds of play. The half ended and as the team left its bench to walk off the court, Murray jogged back across the court again, straight to the camera guy, bent down and spoke to him, obviously checking again that he was ok. Nobody told Murray to do it and I'm sure no one expected it, but he was nice enough to go back and check on the guy. This was after the half, no cameras were watching him, no other players or coaches were with him. Just him looking out for a fellow human being. I was impressed and it altered my perception of him for the remainder of the season. I'm hoping he stays and that Cooley is the right coach to bring out the best in him. Thank you for that story I like Murray now and I think that at Cooley will make a world of a difference with him he'll make a difference with a bunch of these players because he will work on the skills he will work on Preparation he will work on mental aspects |
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HoyaFanNY
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Post by HoyaFanNY on Mar 23, 2023 5:36:12 GMT -5
Who stays and who goes is the most interesting part for me. This isn't a coach coming in that is totally unfamiliar with the current roster. Ed has seen these kids up close twice this year.
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bluechi
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Post by bluechi on Mar 23, 2023 5:39:29 GMT -5
In all likelihood we keep 33% of the team. This is usually the formula when taking over a losing culture. Look to your left, look to your right, those players will be gone. You just don’t want too many players with a negative losing finger pointing mentality as that can be a cancer no matter their ability. Cooley also wants players that fit his system and scheme. So there’s a certain Type of player athletically, physically, skillwise and mentally that he’s looking for. So he’s looking for that fit on weather to retain a player. Probably lol looking at the type of Player he had at Providence will be a good predictor of what he wants I just don't think that so many players should be gone I think that the kids played hard and that's good it's just that the coaching was subpar and a lot of players didn't even get a chance to show what they could do so for that reason they may be gone but we'll see what happens I'll be surprised if a lot of guys are gone and add the fact that Cooley said after both games that the players were very talented and played hard they gave him some problems and that they would be a dangerous team which never came to fruition it should have but Cooley gave them big praise after both games and it wasn't just coach speak he was dead serious because he kept saying it over and over |
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bluechi
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Post by bluechi on Mar 23, 2023 5:53:21 GMT -5
EDIT: I like Bass in this set up, too. I don't think he's a star, but putting Bass, Akok and Riley on the floor with a capable coach will make it hard on people. That's a start. Amen. Those three guys try on defense. Bass could be a star IMHO |
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jwp91
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Post by jwp91 on Mar 23, 2023 5:57:59 GMT -5
I think the most important thing Cooley can do this year is rebuild the culture around the team. We need to build that expectation of hard work on the court, in practice, in improvement. We need to build a strong sense of teamwork as well. On team performance over individual numbers. That does not mean you can't get talent, but we are not going to get OR retain the talent you'd need to win anything at this stage. Build a team where players play for each other and want to be. I'm not saying any of these guys won't want that or won't do that. I don't know them, and I don't know how they'd function in a functional program with a real plan. So I want to make that caveat. This isn't about Speirs or Murray or anyone specifically, because maybe the on court elements that I saw from them that wouldn't fit in a successful team were not how they'd play in a well coached team. But there's no amount of talent I would take this year over building that culture. None. (And while there's talented players on this team ... it's not that talented.) You can't win if you don't defend. It's very hard to have an elite offense if no one can pass. Talent is important, but setting the standard of effort and teamwork is far more important. Agree with this that building a "team" is more important than recruiting stars. We like to criticize the talent levels of Ewing's teams but I never thought the problem was talent as much as chemistry and "fit" with the other players on the court. No shortage of 4* and 5* players in the Ewing years. But with the exception of the team that gelled around Pickett, Blair and Bile in the last part of the season 4 (along with Wahab and Harris), there was never anything that resembled a team where the parts actually fit. I would like to see what Cooley or another competent coach could do with last year's team. In particular though I think that it will be interesting to see what Cooley could do with Akok, a seemingly talented kid who for whatever reason never really became part of the offense. Also would like to see Heath in an offense which gave him more open looks and emphasized ball movement over iso play. Also think that Riley and Bristol could grow into valuable role players and still believe that there is more to Ryan than what we have seen. Agree that Akok is a player to build around. I gave him the kiss of death last season. He went stone cold as soon as I thought we should be finding him for 5-7 threes a game. |
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thedragon
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Post by thedragon on Mar 23, 2023 9:20:00 GMT -5
With the new waiver guidance - guys like Murray and Spears and Ezewiro and Heath will be in a tough spot. Likely either sit out a year or return. Will be very interesting to see how this cracking down on 2nd time transfers affects rosters across college ball - especially for new or departing coaches.
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RBHoya
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Post by RBHoya on Mar 23, 2023 9:27:26 GMT -5
I've been thinking a lot about Cooley's comment yesterday that we are after not necessarily the best players but the best people who are also good players. I really think that today the talent difference is almost negligible in a lot of cases. There are so many talented college age players out there, the game has just gotten so sophisticated. It's not like the 80s where kids are playing on playgrounds until they receive actual coaching from a high school and college coach, there is so much basketball infrastructure out there at the youth level today--everything from camps to personal trainers, skills coaches, shooting coaches, the entire travel and AAU world... There are more good players than ever. So what really matters when it comes down to it is what's inside a person, their will to be great, their ability to accept a role, to be coached, to be a part of a team and put the team above themselves. This is a variation alleninxis 's "The players don't matter" theory. There is never going to be a shortage of good players available in the transfer portal era, so it's less about finding "good" players and more about finding "the right players".
Look at the rosters of Marquette, the best team in the league last year, and Georgetown, the worst team in the league. Is there REALLY that much difference in talent between the two? I know recruiting rankings are fallible and imprecise, but look at the starting lineups of the two teams, along with their 247 composite ranking in their class:
Marquette Kolek, Unranked Mitchell, 92 Kam Jones, 166 Ighodaro, 134 Prosper, 108
Georgetown Spears, Unranked Murray, 82 Heath, 253 Akok, 92 Wahab, 134
Overall, pretty similar I'd say, and my eye test and intuition tells me that the talent difference between the two teams is very little despite the pronounced difference in results. The main difference is that Marquette had vastly better coaching and had players who bought in and who played like a team.
This is all just something I'm bearing in mind as we watch the roster for next season come together, via the portal, hs recruiting and retention of some players from our own squad. I'm less concerned about getting the biggest names, the most eye popping athletes, the transfers who averaged the most ppg last year or the high schoolers with the most stars next to their names. We want the best people who are also good players, and who buy in completely to Coach Cooley's vision for the team.
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Post by hoyainthe315 on Mar 23, 2023 9:35:27 GMT -5
I've been thinking a lot about Cooley's comment yesterday that we are after not necessarily the best players but the best people who are also good players. I really think that today the talent difference is almost negligible in a lot of cases. There are so many talented college age players out there, the game has just gotten so sophisticated. It's not like the 80s where kids are playing on playgrounds until they receive actual coaching from a high school and college coach, there is so much basketball infrastructure out there at the youth level today--everything from camps to personal trainers, skills coaches, shooting coaches, the entire travel and AAU world... There are more good players than ever. So what really matters when it comes down to it is what's inside a person, their will to be great, their ability to accept a role, to be coached, to be a part of a team and put the team above themselves. This is a variation alleninxis 's "The players don't matter" theory. There is never going to be a shortage of good players available in the transfer portal era, so it's less about finding "good" players and more about finding "the right players".
Look at the rosters of Marquette, the best team in the league last year, and Georgetown, the worst team in the league. Is there REALLY that much difference in talent between the two? I know recruiting rankings are fallible and imprecise, but look at the starting lineups of the two teams, along with their 247 composite ranking in their class:
Marquette Kolek, Unranked Mitchell, 92 Kam Jones, 166 Ighodaro, 134 Prosper, 108
Georgetown Spears, Unranked Murray, 82 Heath, 253 Akok, 92 Wahab, 134
Overall, pretty similar I'd say, and my eye test and intuition tells me that the talent difference between the two teams is very little despite the pronounced difference in results. The main difference is that Marquette had vastly better coaching and had players who bought in and who played like a team.
This is all just something I'm bearing in mind as we watch the roster for next season come together, via the portal, hs recruiting and retention of some players from our own squad. I'm less concerned about getting the biggest names, the most eye popping athletes, the transfers who averaged the most ppg last year or the high schoolers with the most stars next to their names. We want the best people who are also good players, and who buy in completely to Coach Cooley's vision for the team.
Its a fair point but you cant measure heart, that Kolek kids gives 110 percent all the time, he is a difference maker, I don't think he played well against MSU but had he not been in foul trouble and could play first half I think they win that game. Coaching has a lot to do with it, but the way we played lack luster perimeter defense, slow jogging to an open shooter was painful, you don't see that with that Marquette team. I will say Akok showed that trait to me, but the other 4 dumpster juice on defense. I hope the whole team transfers except Akok and I hope Riley and Anglin decide to stay. |
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Post by professorhoya on Mar 23, 2023 10:32:50 GMT -5
Ed already said something to the effect that if you are soft grab a pillow cause we don’t want you.
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alleninxis
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Post by alleninxis on Mar 23, 2023 10:33:26 GMT -5
I think that is exactly RB's point. Kolek's fit, his heart or moxie - whatever you want to call it helps make the difference between something like he and Primo Spears who was stat hunting all year and given the green light to do it - as much the staff's fault as it ever was his own. I don't care about where a team ranks in recruiting or how their transfer haul is viewed. You need the right people, and collectively make sure the pieces fit. Maybe as the covid year exception goes away and NIL money keeps some of these 4/5 star guys around for more years (maybe we get to a point NIL contracts are in play) the recruiting rankings factor in again like they used to - for now I find it almost irrelevant. Get the right guys, develop it, nurture it. Have a culture in place.
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