SSHoya
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Post by SSHoya on Dec 27, 2022 12:35:46 GMT -5
This makes no sense. Mike Jones at Va Tech and former DeMatha head coach would be preferable to this guy. And many have offered cogent reasons why we need someone who's already been a head coach at the DI level. At least Jones has been an assistant at the DI level. |
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drquigley
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Post by drquigley on Dec 27, 2022 14:27:29 GMT -5
This makes no sense. Mike Jones at Va Tech and former DeMatha head coach would be preferable to this guy. And many have offered cogent reasons why we need someone who's already been a head coach at the DI level. At least Jones has been an assistant at the DI level. I agree that I'd rather have a guy who has been a successful head coach at the college level. But if we're going to settle for a guy who hasn't coached at the college level then Nickens sounds like the kind of guy we hired 50 years ago. |
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on Dec 27, 2022 14:28:41 GMT -5
This makes no sense. Mike Jones at Va Tech and former DeMatha head coach would be preferable to this guy. And many have offered cogent reasons why we need someone who's already been a head coach at the DI level. At least Jones has been an assistant at the DI level. I agree that I'd rather have a guy who has been a successful head coach at the college level. But if we're going to settle for a guy who hasn't coached at the college level then Nickens sounds like the kind of guy we hired 50 years ago. Nickens, or anyone else, can be Pitino’s college basketball apprentice. Pitino will bring the excitement back to Hoya Basketball. There will be no need to give tickets away. |
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alleninxis
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Post by alleninxis on Dec 27, 2022 15:05:51 GMT -5
If we're hiring High School coaches, forget about the Patriot League and just fold the program entirely. Even Mike Jones I find to be an incredibly risky hire that they can not make at this point in time. For so many reasons, John Thompson Jr. was a very unique coach whose success and career path will never be replicated.
So long as the administration shows that they still care about the program, this is a very coveted job.
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on Dec 27, 2022 15:10:32 GMT -5
While we’re discussing head coaches, let’s also discuss national search committee members like:
Does she know college basketball?
With GU and the $15M budget, consulting costs are not a problem.
The more VIPs, the less Ronny will intervene… and do not let Falk hover around…
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hoyajmw
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Post by hoyajmw on Dec 27, 2022 15:35:55 GMT -5
While we’re discussing head coaches, let’s also discuss national search committee members like: Does she know college basketball? With GU and the $15M budget, consulting costs are not a problem. The more VIPs, the less Ronny will intervene… and do not let Falk hover around… Great idea and topic! Indeeed the higher the profile VIP doing the “search” — even if just a figurehead — the more it would further the cachet of the opening and show a commitment to coming back. And something that plays on being the nation’s capital can’t hurt. The combo of Bill Clinton and Mark Salter, former McCain Chief of Staff, co-author of all the late Senator’s books, Hoya circa ‘81 and LONG time season ticket holder (until recently I think) would be a grand slam. |
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SSHoya
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Post by SSHoya on Dec 27, 2022 15:43:38 GMT -5
This makes no sense. Mike Jones at Va Tech and former DeMatha head coach would be preferable to this guy. And many have offered cogent reasons why we need someone who's already been a head coach at the DI level. At least Jones has been an assistant at the DI level. I agree that I'd rather have a guy who has been a successful head coach at the college level. But if we're going to settle for a guy who hasn't coached at the college level then Nickens sounds like the kind of guy we hired 50 years ago. Part of the problem here is trying to replicate the past when the current college basketball environment is fundamentally different. All I'm saying is that if you want to take a chance on someone who's never been a HEAD coach at a DI school, Mike Jones is far more objectively qualified than Nickens even so far as having coached in a Catholic environment (which should be irrelevant in any case). |
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Post by trillesthoya on Dec 27, 2022 15:49:01 GMT -5
Trying to hire a local high school head coach makes no sense. We did that back in the 70s with JT2 because the school had no presence in basketball nationally and could afford to take a swing. That is not the case today. The only upside to hiring a top local guy is the benefit it would give to your local recruiting which is no longer super important in today’s game. The DMV still produces talented players but all of the best players from this area tend to up at the national high school power houses (think IMG, Montverde, Oak Hill etc…) so its way more important to find a coach with strong relationships at those types of programs than it is at say Dematha, Gonzaga, etc. Georgetown has too big of a budget for basketball today to even think about a risky hire, they need to hire a proven commodity that has significant CBB experience and accolades to go with it.
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hoyaboya
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Post by hoyaboya on Dec 27, 2022 15:49:53 GMT -5
If we're hiring High School coaches, forget about the Patriot League and just fold the program entirely. Even Mike Jones I find to be an incredibly risky hire that they can not make at this point in time. For so many reasons, John Thompson Jr. was a very unique coach whose success and career path will never be replicated. So long as the administration shows that they still care about the program, this is a very coveted job. Totally agree. When JT2 was hired 50 years ago, there was no such thing as AAU basketball and the college game was billions of dollars less of an enterprise. Hiring a high school coach for a Power 6 conference job is a ridiculous notion that should have been put to bed over 30 years ago, when Maryland hired Bob Wade. It can't and won't work. It's almost like hiring an NBA assistant coach who has never been involved in the college game. Here's a crazy idea - let's hire a guy who has actually had success at a high-major or mid-major level and not have his race or connection to the Thompson family be primary factors in the hiring decision. Can we try that for once? |
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Elvado
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Post by Elvado on Dec 27, 2022 15:55:06 GMT -5
If we're hiring High School coaches, forget about the Patriot League and just fold the program entirely. Even Mike Jones I find to be an incredibly risky hire that they can not make at this point in time. For so many reasons, John Thompson Jr. was a very unique coach whose success and career path will never be replicated. So long as the administration shows that they still care about the program, this is a very coveted job. Totally agree. When JT2 was hired 50 years ago, there was no such thing as AAU basketball and the college game was billions of dollars less of an enterprise. Hiring a high school coach for a Power 6 conference job is a ridiculous notion that should have been put to bed over 30 years ago, when Maryland hired Bob Wade. It can't and won't work. It's almost like hiring an NBA assistant coach who has never been involved in the college game. Here's a crazy idea - let's hire a guy who has actually had success at a high-major or mid-major level and not have his race or connection to the Thompson family be primary factors in the hiring decision. Can we try that for once? You heretic!! To a certain portion of this fan base, Thompson > Georgetown. The old man said so with his “T” hat. It is time to end the Thompson stranglehold on GU Basketball once and for all. He will still have the court, the building and the statue. The check has been paid many times over. Holding onto this Thompson-centric nostalgia is insanity. |
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RBHoya
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Post by RBHoya on Dec 27, 2022 16:21:08 GMT -5
If we're OK with a coach who doesn't have experience running a college program, Mike Jones is the obvious pick. He at least has a couple years of experience as second-in-command at a high major program, so he's been able to study how to run a college program close-up, even if he hasn't done it himself. And the talent he was able to assemble at DeMatha is significantly better than the talent Georgetown has been able to assemble in recent years. But as interesting as Mike Jones is, he cannot be Plan A, or even Plan B or C. We rolled the dice on someone who hadn't run a college program before last time we made a hire and it has blown up in our face. This time we need to go hard after someone who has proven that they can be a successful college coach and/or build a college program. In the best case scenario, we give Jones a little pay bump and let him move his family back to DC as OUR Associate HC and possible heir apparent. But if he's not up for that, or is offended about being passed over, we will likely have to go forward without him. A hire having echoes of the hire we made 50 years ago is exactly the wrong thing to be considering this time around. John Thompson ain't walking through that door. Let us please stop trying to recreate the magic of that era and begin the hard work of building this program anew. Edited to add: I forgot to push send on this post and it seems that by the time I did, several others had already made the same point  |
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Dec 27, 2022 17:31:09 GMT -5
Trying to hire a local high school head coach makes no sense. We did that back in the 70s with JT2 because the school had no presence in basketball nationally and could afford to take a swing. That is not the case today. The only upside to hiring a top local guy is the benefit it would give to your local recruiting which is no longer super important in today’s game. The DMV still produces talented players but all of the best players from this area tend to up at the national high school power houses (think IMG, Montverde, Oak Hill etc…) so its way more important to find a coach with strong relationships at those types of programs than it is at say Dematha, Gonzaga, etc. Georgetown has too big of a budget for basketball today to even think about a risky hire, they need to hire a proven commodity that has significant CBB experience and accolades to go with it. This cannot be emphasized enough. Every so often someone says the "well, hiring a high school coach worked out pretty well 50 years ago" line. And it did. But, as you pointed out the circumstances were a lot different. Take Mike Jones. Let's say you have a program in a mid-major or even low-major conference looking to make a splash in Division I. Or, let's push it even further. Let's say you have a new team to Division I, and you hire somebody like Mike Jones (let's put aside the fact that Jones likely wouldn't take it). In that scenario, hiring someone like that or an excellent high school coach might make sense. But, the door John Thompson walked through in the 1970s is very different from the one any new coach has to step into. The Big East didn't exist, college basketball wasn't the huge revenue sport it is now, there was no AAU basketball, recruiting surely tended to be more locally-oriented, there was no shot clock, no three point line, and the list goes on. College basketball now is essentially a major enterprise, and the skills necessary to succeed are rare. Really, how many college basketball coaches in the last 20 years have had massive success out of the 360+ Division I schools? I am not going to make a list, but I bet if you did, you'd probably find a small set of guys with amazing results (Coach K, Calipari, Pitino, Jay Wright), then you'd have a bunch of guys who are really good but maybe not quite that level (Rick Barnes, Mike Brey, Ed Cooley, Bruce Pearl (when he's not corrupt)), etc. Then you have guys like Matta or JT3 who had past success but then fizzled out (we will see if Matta regains that stature with his second chance at Butler). And then everyone else. In fact, I bet if someone did a "top coaches of the last 20 years," the 50th coach on that list probably wouldn't be as good/successful as one might think (though way better than our current situation). And it's even more extreme when you consider that 20 years is a long time, and many of the good coaches over the last 20 years aren't even coaching in college anymore because of retirements, leaving for the NBA, etc. Point being--getting a good head coach is really tough because there aren't that many people who are good at it. And, it's even less likely when a guy has never done it before (see Ewing). To be fair, Jones has good attributes. And it certainly could work. Maybe he'd be fantastic. I am just not at the point where I am willing to risk (if it can be avoided) another 4-5 potential years in the wilderness when others exist that might be better options. In my view, you go with proven guys. Other than Pitino, this is mostly long shots like Sampson, and other guys who are extremely likely to come to Georgetown. Then you move on to the next tier of good quality coaches and up-and-comers. These are guys who have either had some success elsewhere or guys running up the ranks, like McAsland. But there just aren't many of those guys around at this point. Once you exhaust all those options, I guess then I'd go to people like Jones. And if Georgetown did a high quality search, everyone else turned Georgetown down (not a crazy scenario), and we ended up with Mike Jones, I could be okay with that. But, not if we don't even try like in 2017. |
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Post by trillesthoya on Dec 27, 2022 17:32:35 GMT -5
I bet Mike Brey is available. Notre Dame has plateaued with him and I wouldn’t be shocked if both sides would look for a change in scenery. I know he turned us down the first time around but ND is not as strong now as it was in 2016. Other options that intrigue me besides Pitino are John Beilein, Bobby Hurley, and Chris Mack believe it or not. Mack is a good coach that in my opinion Louisville gave up on too early. I bet he’s waiting for another high major gig to hire him and would be open to a cheap short term contract.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Dec 27, 2022 17:39:26 GMT -5
I bet Mike Brey is available. Notre Dame has plateaued with him and I wouldn’t be shocked if both sides would look for a change in scenery. I know he turned us down the first time around but ND is not as strong now as it was in 2016. Other options that intrigue me besides Pitino are John Beilein, Bobby Hurley, and Chris Mack believe it or not. Mack is a good coach that in my opinion Louisville gave up on too early. I bet he’s waiting for another high major gig to hire him and would be open to a cheap short term contract. Beilein would be great, I am just not sure coming back to the college game is something he'd consider. Mack too. On Bobby Hurley, he's been okay at Arizona State, but he doesn't have a high ceiling. The best ranked team on KenPom he's ever had is 49. His rankings (starting this year and going back): 55, 97, 86, 63, 57, 49, 126, 93. It would be a pass for me on him. As for Brey, I don't know what's going on at Notre Dame. Putting aside that he'd be a big improvement on Ewing, his teams have had pretty bad defense in recent years, and in the last six seasons he's made 1 tournament (they would not have made it COVID year). 6 years of subpar play makes me think Brey might be past his prime, but I really don't know enough about him to say one way or another. Brey's struggles coincide with moving to the ACC. I am not sure how that affected him, but curious why. But anybody who hated JT3's pace would hate Brey. In the last 10+ years, his teams have played super slow. This year, they are one of the slowest in all of Division I. Someone like RDF would say it's dungeon ball, part 2. |
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hoyaboya
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Post by hoyaboya on Dec 27, 2022 17:44:40 GMT -5
I bet Mike Brey is available. Notre Dame has plateaued with him and I wouldn’t be shocked if both sides would look for a change in scenery. I know he turned us down the first time around but ND is not as strong now as it was in 2016. Other options that intrigue me besides Pitino are John Beilein, Bobby Hurley, and Chris Mack believe it or not. Mack is a good coach that in my opinion Louisville gave up on too early. I bet he’s waiting for another high major gig to hire him and would be open to a cheap short term contract. We did not do a real search in 2017 when Ewing was hired - the idea that Mike Brey turned us down is poppycock. It's possible that it was written by someone, or even that Mike Brey wanted the notion put out there to strengthen his situation at Notre Dame, but there was never anybody going to be hired by JT2 except for Patrick Ewing. |
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hoyaguy
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Post by hoyaguy on Dec 27, 2022 17:49:04 GMT -5
Trying to hire a local high school head coach makes no sense. We did that back in the 70s with JT2 because the school had no presence in basketball nationally and could afford to take a swing. That is not the case today. The only upside to hiring a top local guy is the benefit it would give to your local recruiting which is no longer super important in today’s game. The DMV still produces talented players but all of the best players from this area tend to up at the national high school power houses (think IMG, Montverde, Oak Hill etc…) so its way more important to find a coach with strong relationships at those types of programs than it is at say Dematha, Gonzaga, etc. Georgetown has too big of a budget for basketball today to even think about a risky hire, they need to hire a proven commodity that has significant CBB experience and accolades to go with it. In my view, you go with proven guys. Other than Pitino, this is mostly long shots like Sampson, and other guys who are extremely likely to come to Georgetown. Then you move on to the next tier of good quality coaches and up-and-comers. These are guys who have either had some success elsewhere or guys running up the ranks, like McAsland. But there just aren't many of those guys around at this point. Once you exhaust all those options, I guess then I'd go to people like Jones. And if Georgetown did a high quality search, everyone else turned Georgetown down (not a crazy scenario), and we ended up with Mike Jones, I could be okay with that. But, not if we don't even try like in 2017. The issue is who tf wants to work here if they are successful at P6 level? Other than pitino, there are only downsides to coming here for “good coaches”. That’s why it was such a huge issue not pulling the trigger last season when there were some good realistic candidates on the table. Pitino is such an over the top obvious right answer that they will surely ignore it. Now if I put myself in the mind of JD (someone who shrinks under the Thompson/falk thumb)it’s basically Amaker, Mccasland, the Yale coach Jones, and Mike Jones. Who else is a “good” coach that could realistically be pulled by these stooges? |
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alleninxis
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Post by alleninxis on Dec 27, 2022 18:20:35 GMT -5
Chris Mack would absolutely take this job. He's only 52 and he's a college lifer, he's going to be coaching at a reasonably high level job again soon.
While I am not a fan of his personality, if you presented coaches resumes on paper blindly with no names attached - he's a tough candidate to beat out once you get past Pitino.
What Georgetown can't do - and they surely will - is wait and not have their ducks in a row come as early as the 2nd week of March. There is no high major program that should beat you to the punch for a candidate this cycle, you might get turned down- but it can not because you were late to the party.
Brey is an upgrade of course but to me, he looks worn down and out of gas. I don't think he's in a spot to pivot and take on a rebuild as someone who isn't a great recruiter. (before anyone says it, no - I actually think the opposite of Pitino's energy right now)
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TC
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Post by TC on Dec 27, 2022 18:57:52 GMT -5
While we’re discussing head coaches, let’s also discuss national search committee members like: Does she know college basketball? With GU and the $15M budget, consulting costs are not a problem. The more VIPs, the less Ronny will intervene… and do not let Falk hover around… Condoleezza Rice is a part owner of the Broncos, and the NFL has a terrible history of not giving minority coaches a fair shot in the interview process. As for the involvement of VIPs, I remember the argument-from-authority regarding the presence of VIPs in the search last time "surely, Paul Tagliabue is a professional and this will be a search that looks everywhere!" |
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DonkDonk
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Post by DonkDonk on Dec 27, 2022 19:47:26 GMT -5
I bet Mike Brey is available. Notre Dame has plateaued with him and I wouldn’t be shocked if both sides would look for a change in scenery. I know he turned us down the first time around but ND is not as strong now as it was in 2016. Other options that intrigue me besides Pitino are John Beilein, Bobby Hurley, and Chris Mack believe it or not. Mack is a good coach that in my opinion Louisville gave up on too early. I bet he’s waiting for another high major gig to hire him and would be open to a cheap short term contract. Some good thoughts on this thread, but I believe most are underestimating the importance of "equity" at GU now and how that may dictate the next hire. Equity is basically everything at the school (see any Georgetown magazine, notable development, news story of the last 2-3 years at the school), so I think these names are non-starters. I sense Jack D. is most terrified of supplanting Patrick with someone who doesn't fit the bill in this regard. |
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on Dec 27, 2022 20:52:33 GMT -5
While we’re discussing head coaches, let’s also discuss national search committee members like: Does she know college basketball? With GU and the $15M budget, consulting costs are not a problem. The more VIPs, the less Ronny will intervene… and do not let Falk hover around… Condoleezza Rice is a part owner of the Broncos, and the NFL has a terrible history of not giving minority coaches a fair shot in the interview process. As for the involvement of VIPs, I remember the argument-from-authority regarding the presence of VIPs in the search last time "surely, Paul Tagliabue is a professional and this will be a search that looks everywhere!" True about PT…that’s why I said more VIPs, i.e., several… Wasn’t PT part of the Board at that time? We need outsiders to help with picking candidates for our next head coach. |
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