Head Coaches Discussion

[DoffBHoya]

Does this mean we should expect Pat at the Tombs tomorrow?

[hoyaguy]

Mar 1, 2023 23:10:12 GMT -5 DoffBHoya said:

Does this mean we should expect Pat at the Tombs tomorrow?

Tbf he had some moments of success in his career but that kind of attitude after having only 3 conference wins this season…just add it to the growing list of reasons I don’t want him here

[DanMcQ]

[bluechi]

Mar 1, 2023 21:14:45 GMT -5 royski said:

I highly doubt that Dawn Staley would effectively recruit. Simply an insane idea. If Rick Pitino wants this job, and all indications are that he does, there is 0 reason to even consider anyone else.

Well, it IS a different time, so she's got that for her At the end of the day, a great communicator is a great communicator and a great leader is a  great leader. She'd find good recruits.

[Bigs"R"Us]

Mar 2, 2023 0:17:26 GMT -5 bluechi said:

Mar 1, 2023 21:14:45 GMT -5 royski said:

I highly doubt that Dawn Staley would effectively recruit. Simply an insane idea. If Rick Pitino wants this job, and all indications are that he does, there is 0 reason to even consider anyone else.

Well, it IS a different time, so she's got that for her At the end of the day, a great communicator is a great communicator and a great leader is a  great leader. She'd find good recruits.

She’d be politically difficult to fire if it didn’t pan out.

[prhoya]

Mar 2, 2023 7:48:13 GMT -5 Bigs"R"Us said:

Mar 2, 2023 0:17:26 GMT -5 bluechi said:

Well, it IS a different time, so she's got that for her At the end of the day, a great communicator is a great communicator and a great leader is a  great leader. She'd find good recruits.

She’d be politically difficult to fire if it didn’t pan out.

Make sure Falk is not her agent or the University will get Falked yet again.

[practice]

Does anyone really think that this a good time to roll the dice with an unconventional hire like Dawn Staley? I wish her the best but Georgetown should be trying to find someone with the smallest amount of downside risk -- nobody knows how she'll translate to the men's game. She could be good/great yes ... but she might never figure out how to recruit, how to retain, or perhaps how to coach in the men's game.

Another high downside risk of coach is the former star player or the guy who's never coached in college. Somehow, Ewing set new lows for that category of risky hire.

We are going on a near decade of crap basketball. Georgetown cannot risk hiring someone who can add another 3 to 6 years of more bad results. Nothing is guaranteed, but hiring someone who is winning now/has won in the future/is coaching or has coached a major program is the highest likelihood of success ... and hopefully if not tremendous success then the downside is still respectable results.

This of course gets us right back to where we should be -- PITINO.

[thedragon]

I remember the early Ewing days when his age was pointed to as a factor against hiring him. Pitino would be 70 years old taking on a full rebuild who's not been one of the coaches to quickly embrace the new transfer portal era. He's a spectacular coach, with a HOF resume and then some, and deserves a healthy benefit of the doubt. But all these people with a singular focused agenda acting like he's the only choice because hes THE sure thing are setting themselves and the fanbase as a whole up for more disappointment imo.

[practice]

Mar 2, 2023 8:45:38 GMT -5 thedragon said:

I remember the early Ewing days when his age was pointed to as a factor against hiring him. Pitino would be 70 years old taking on a full rebuild who's not been one of the coaches to quickly embrace the new transfer portal era. He's a spectacular coach, with a HOF resume and then some, and deserves a healthy benefit of the doubt. But all these people with a singular focused agenda acting like he's the only choice because hes THE sure thing are setting themselves and the fanbase as a whole up for more disappointment imo.

You think people who still watch and follow Hoya basketball are worried about being disappointed??? 

It's clear from the JT3 firing and it's clear from all of the national press hits regarding Pitino and Georgetown that somehow -- and this is frankly ridiculous -- the chatter on things like Hoya Talk and fan's on twitter get's picked up in the national dialogue.   I think most of the Pitino or nothing crowd here -- myself included -- are just trying to help with the momentum.  Internally I have such low hopes/thoughts on how this is going to play out ... but any endorsement of a lesser hire than Pitino or Cooley or some other great candidate is counter productive.   

If you don't think JDG's minion are scouring hoyatalk for some justification of some crap hire then I don't think you know how sad the situation is up there.   When I see someone like that old out of touch columnist from the Post float Tommy Amaker's name out there ... I have not doubt that Lee Reed, JDG, Ronny or someother Hilltop insider gave him that.   F low expectations.   

I cancelled my season tickets after last year.  I've stopped giving the school any money.   I refuse to go to game in person.   I don't want to participate in someone justifying the next crap hire  that they likely want to do.   

This is a university that has NEVER made a real head coaching hire.   JT2 was 1972!!! He was a HS coach.  It was a brilliant move ... but that wasn't a search.  The closest we've ever gotten was hiring JT2's SON!   They need to know up there what the fans and alumni wan and that should be the best.   

Don't give them any cover for less than great.   

[thedragon]

Mar 2, 2023 9:01:08 GMT -5 practice said:

Mar 2, 2023 8:45:38 GMT -5 thedragon said:

I remember the early Ewing days when his age was pointed to as a factor against hiring him. Pitino would be 70 years old taking on a full rebuild who's not been one of the coaches to quickly embrace the new transfer portal era. He's a spectacular coach, with a HOF resume and then some, and deserves a healthy benefit of the doubt. But all these people with a singular focused agenda acting like he's the only choice because hes THE sure thing are setting themselves and the fanbase as a whole up for more disappointment imo.

You think people who still watch and follow Hoya basketball are worried about being disappointed??? 

It's clear from the JT3 firing and it's clear from all of the national press hits regarding Pitino and Georgetown that somehow -- and this is frankly ridiculous -- the chatter on things like Hoya Talk and fan's on twitter get's picked up in the national dialogue.   I think most of the Pitino or nothing crowd here -- myself included -- are just trying to help with the momentum.  Internally I have such low hopes/thoughts on how this is going to play out ... but any endorsement of a lesser hire than Pitino or Cooley or some other great candidate is counter productive.   

If you don't think JDG's minion are scouring hoyatalk for some justification of some crap hire then I don't think you know how sad the situation is up there.   When I see someone like that old out of touch columnist from the Post float Tommy Amaker's name out there ... I have not doubt that Lee Reed, JDG, Ronny or someother Hilltop insider gave him that.   F low expectations.   

I cancelled my season tickets after last year.  I've stopped giving the school any money.   I refuse to go to game in person.   I don't want to participate in someone justifying the next crap hire  that they likely want to do.   

This is a university that has NEVER made a real head coaching hire.   JT2 was 1972!!! He was a HS coach.  It was a brilliant move ... but that wasn't a search.  The closest we've ever gotten was hiring JT2's SON!   They need to know up there what the fans and alumni wan and that should be the best.   

Don't give them any cover for less than great.   

The admin is getting no cover from me nor has it ever. I don't think it's nearly a slam dunk hire or the must choice many are making it out to be. I'd be for it - but he wouldn't be my top choice.

To take it a step further - I believe there is a good chance that if Gtown doesn't hire him he stays at Iona. The competition for him will not be nearly as fierce as some seem to think.

[TC]

Mar 2, 2023 8:45:38 GMT -5 thedragon said:

I remember the early Ewing days when his age was pointed to as a factor against hiring him. Pitino would be 70 years old taking on a full rebuild who's not been one of the coaches to quickly embrace the new transfer portal era. He's a spectacular coach, with a HOF resume and then some, and deserves a healthy benefit of the doubt. But all these people with a singular focused agenda acting like he's the only choice because hes THE sure thing are setting themselves and the fanbase as a whole up for more disappointment imo.

Pitino isn't the only choice, but he absolutely is a SURE thing. You hire him, he will win and he would win fast - his history says that we are in the tournament in 2024-2025, just in time for the TV contract renegotiation.

Longest it has taken Pitino to get to 20 wins at a new job : 1 season. Everywhere he has been, .500 or above year one, 20+ wins year two.

Ed Cooley's a great choice, and that's basically a resource question of how big the Brinks Truck is that you back up onto his lawn to try to pry him away from Providence.

You want to try to steer the board in another direction because you don't think DeGioia will go for him, fine. But no one has his resume or his skills and we shouldn't kid ourselves by acting like he's a question mark. He's not.

[thedragon]

Mar 2, 2023 9:08:04 GMT -5 TC said:

Mar 2, 2023 8:45:38 GMT -5 thedragon said:

I remember the early Ewing days when his age was pointed to as a factor against hiring him. Pitino would be 70 years old taking on a full rebuild who's not been one of the coaches to quickly embrace the new transfer portal era. He's a spectacular coach, with a HOF resume and then some, and deserves a healthy benefit of the doubt. But all these people with a singular focused agenda acting like he's the only choice because hes THE sure thing are setting themselves and the fanbase as a whole up for more disappointment imo.

Pitino isn't the only choice, but he absolutely is a SURE thing. You hire him, he will win and he would win fast - his history says that we are in the tournament in 2024-2025, just in time for the TV contract renegotiation.

Longest it has taken Pitino to get to 20 wins at a new job : 1 season. Everywhere he has been, .500 or above year one, 20+ wins year two.

Ed Cooley's a great choice, and that's basically a resource question of how big the Brinks Truck is that you back up onto his lawn to try to pry him away from Providence.

You want to try to steer the board in another direction because you don't think DeGioia will go for him, fine. But no one has his resume or his skills and we shouldn't kid ourselves by acting like he's a question mark. He's not.

No one's trying to steer anything away. I'm not sure why it can't be as simple as I think coaches as in every area in life lose a step when they get older. And asking a 70+ year old to resurrect a program from the burning pits of hell in a completely new era of CBB isn't a guaranteed recipe for success.

[prhoya]

Mar 2, 2023 9:14:11 GMT -5 thedragon said:

Mar 2, 2023 9:08:04 GMT -5 TC said:

Pitino isn't the only choice, but he absolutely is a SURE thing. You hire him, he will win and he would win fast - his history says that we are in the tournament in 2024-2025, just in time for the TV contract renegotiation.

Longest it has taken Pitino to get to 20 wins at a new job : 1 season. Everywhere he has been, .500 or above year one, 20+ wins year two.

Ed Cooley's a great choice, and that's basically a resource question of how big the Brinks Truck is that you back up onto his lawn to try to pry him away from Providence.

You want to try to steer the board in another direction because you don't think DeGioia will go for him, fine. But no one has his resume or his skills and we shouldn't kid ourselves by acting like he's a question mark. He's not.

No one's trying to steer anything away. I'm not sure why it can't be as simple as I think coaches as in every area in life lose a step when they get older. And asking a 70+ year old to resurrect a program from the burning pits of hell in a completely new era of CBB isn't a guaranteed recipe for success.

You keep harping on that. There really is no one better who is available right now in a manageable way. It will be a monumental resurrection and load of work to fix the program from the ground up. It will require someone who has done it before and everyone at GU Basketball should get out of the way. It will also require for him to bring his team of trusted people. I trust that he can do it and leave it working in a professional way, not Mary and Pops’ way.

[prhoya]

Mar 2, 2023 9:01:08 GMT -5 practice said:

Mar 2, 2023 8:45:38 GMT -5 thedragon said:

I remember the early Ewing days when his age was pointed to as a factor against hiring him. Pitino would be 70 years old taking on a full rebuild who's not been one of the coaches to quickly embrace the new transfer portal era. He's a spectacular coach, with a HOF resume and then some, and deserves a healthy benefit of the doubt. But all these people with a singular focused agenda acting like he's the only choice because hes THE sure thing are setting themselves and the fanbase as a whole up for more disappointment imo.

You think people who still watch and follow Hoya basketball are worried about being disappointed??? 

It's clear from the JT3 firing and it's clear from all of the national press hits regarding Pitino and Georgetown that somehow -- and this is frankly ridiculous -- the chatter on things like Hoya Talk and fan's on twitter get's picked up in the national dialogue.   I think most of the Pitino or nothing crowd here -- myself included -- are just trying to help with the momentum.  Internally I have such low hopes/thoughts on how this is going to play out ... but any endorsement of a lesser hire than Pitino or Cooley or some other great candidate is counter productive.   

If you don't think JDG's minion are scouring hoyatalk for some justification of some crap hire then I don't think you know how sad the situation is up there.   When I see someone like that old out of touch columnist from the Post float Tommy Amaker's name out there ... I have not doubt that Lee Reed, JDG, Ronny or someother Hilltop insider gave him that.   F low expectations.   

I cancelled my season tickets after last year.  I've stopped giving the school any money.   I refuse to go to game in person.   I don't want to participate in someone justifying the next crap hire  that they likely want to do.   

This is a university that has NEVER made a real head coaching hire.   JT2 was 1972!!! He was a HS coach.  It was a brilliant move ... but that wasn't a search.  The closest we've ever gotten was hiring JT2's SON!   They need to know up there what the fans and alumni wan and that should be the best.   

Don't give them any cover for less than great.   

Amen.

That’s why I do the Patrick Ewing’s Record thread. It’s a factual, objective look at his BE coaching career at GU made easily accessible to Jack DeGioia and anyone else who will face someone saying “but Pat is a good coach”, etc… Pat is literally a record-breaking loser who is handling a Top 15 budget.

[bluegray79]

If you want a lot of question marks, crossed fingers and hoping for the best, sure, go after Amaker or Dawkins or Jones at Yale or one of the so-called 'up and comers'. Frankly, questions, crossed fingers, and hoping is most of what I've done for the past 6+ years, and I'd prefer not to do that when we have choices that point to better outcomes.

Sure, consider age -- it's not totally irrelevant -- but also know that many of our in-laws, uncles, and even a grandfather or two out there can give us a good run for our money in smarts, energy level and drive. Plus they bring the wisdom & perspective that only living can give you. Can't lump them all together -- assess the individual and see what you got.

Yes, the job is ginormous and will require someone with a unique set of skills to be successful. Lots of moving parts and a culture to build to get buy-in from all those moving parts. If we have the options -- and we do! -- we can't think of this as an on-the-job-training experiment. Let's bring in someone who can get us back on our feet sooner than later, who knows the league, the school, and who works with university presidents, administrations, and the community at large. AND run a high major D1 basketball really well.

You like Brey? He's got some cred but it's been a while since he has been at his best. Mack? Not coming. Cooley? Ditto. No one is perfect in every single regard, but Pitino comes about as close as you can get for us right now. If his age is a concern for you -- and it's not for me looking at what he's done in his most recent job and over the course of a remarkable career -- think again - that would be the least concerning thing to me.

I always say that hoping is not a strategy. So, I have emailed everyone I can -- from Pres. DeGioia to Lee Reed to the head of the Board to the VP and Provost -- and respectfully tried to nudge them in the direction of who I think is our best choice. (It was beautiful and eloquent, really. unlike most of my posts lol) Now I am left to hope. And pray. That all those people involved in making this decision can see and think clearly and wisely, to exhibit the vision in choosing what's best for the university and this once-proud program. I want to feel confident in them and proud of the decision and direction they choose.

Hoya Saxa!

[RBHoya]

Whomever is the top choice (hopefully Pitino or Cooley), we should be reaching out to their agent immediately if we haven't already. If they are interested, let's get the framework of a deal in place and we can pocket the announcement until a day or two after their season ends. If they're not interested at the type of money we're talking, better to find out now and start putting out feelers to Bennett, Mack, McCasland, Kelsey, et. al.

I am so sick of the way they've handled this Ewing situation, like we need to handle him with kid gloves because he meant so much to the program as a player. Of course we don't want to make him look any worse than we need to, but games like last night show that keeping this thing going through the end of the season gives him plenty of opportunity to look like a terrible coach on his own. This relationship is over and has been for a long time, and it's time for us to aggressively move forward with rebuilding this program. If they sit on their hands for another couple weeks and fail to engage new candidates until the ink is dry on Patrick's severance and the board meets to make it official, they're even dumber than we all think they are. We need to start moving NOW and NOTHING should stand in the way of that, certainly not some abstract emotional protection of the man being paid $4mm/yr to stink out the joint game after game.

Pitino's agent is Evan Daniels at CAA (who some of you may remember from 247), and Cooley's is Dennis Coleman. Get on the phone with these guys today if you haven't already been.

[hoyasaxa2003]

I understand the age concerns, and if we were looking at someone like Leonard Hamilton or Brey who have seemingly lost it, I would agree and be highly skeptical. But Pitino has been massively successful for decades, he has turned around multiple programs in the past, and he has explicitly said he wants another shot at the big time.

One of the concerns of older coaches is that they lack fire in the belly or kind of let things slide (like Boeheim). Pitino is clearly not that person, and so the age issue doesn’t bother me at all given the upside.

And to be clear, I wouldn’t want a mediocre coach who was the same age. For me, age doesn’t really matter if the guy is capable. Pitino is clearly capable and I have no doubt he’d turn the program around. This isn’t a situation where he’s been out of coaching for 5 years or where his performance is in question, so there’s no legitimate basis to use age against him unless you’re looking for someone who is going to stay 10+ years and in this day and age finding someone like that who is successful is incredibly difficult. I’ll take a 5 year almost sure thing to a 10+ year question mark.

We will likely never have the chance to hire a Hall of Fame coach ever again. We should take it.

[thedragon]

Mar 2, 2023 9:35:01 GMT -5 prhoya said:

Mar 2, 2023 9:14:11 GMT -5 thedragon said:

No one's trying to steer anything away. I'm not sure why it can't be as simple as I think coaches as in every area in life lose a step when they get older. And asking a 70+ year old to resurrect a program from the burning pits of hell in a completely new era of CBB isn't a guaranteed recipe for success.

You keep harping on that. There really is no one better who is available right now in a manageable way. It will be a monumental resurrection and load of work to fix the program from the ground up. It will require someone who has done it before and everyone at GU Basketball should get out of the way. It will also require for him to bring his team of trusted people. I trust that he can do it and leave it working in a professional way, not Mary and Pops’ way.

I keep harping on it because I think it greatly matters.

Lets take a quick look at the 4 oldest active coaches in D-1 college basketball:

1.  Jim Boeheim (78)- the decline is nearly complete.  Syracuse is looking for a way out.  
2.  Cliff Ellis (77) - last place in Sun Belt
3.  Leonard Hamilton (74) - one of the worst seasons of his career this season
4.  Jim Larranaga (73) - The best of the older bunch.  Miami is a top 25 team.  Theyve been aided GREATLY in the new NIL environment by booster John Ruiz and his bottomless wallet, of which Georgetown will not have. 

No college coach has won a championship beyond 68 years old (please correct me if this is wrong, but this was the case as of a few years ago).

And again, I dont look at this as any old job a great coach (which Pitino is!) can turn around with a snap of ones fingers.  We have NIL hurdles.  We have administration hurdles.  We have (maybe less so after the Ewing years) academic hurdles.  And we have perception issues.  This isnt simply a .500 team like Xavier who had been a consistent bubble sitter that needed some new energy and took that risk on a much younger coach with a checkered past in Sean Miller.  This isnt the Georgetown of JT3 vintage where first round flameouts could potentially quickly be turned into postseason success.  Assuming Ronny is gone (which I truly believe to be the case) then this is a program that needs rebuilding from the foundation.  There is NOTHING that should be left behind from the PR team to the social team to the SIDs office to the "chief of staff" to strength and conditioning and beyond.  Asking a then 71 year old to lead this from the ground rebuild is a TALL TALL task.  Could he do it?  Sure. He certainly has a track record of success.  But if I was the one handing the keys over to a new coach in the hope of resurrecting a dying program that needs a top to bottom overhaul - hiring a grandfather in his 70s would not be my top choice.  People at that age want to work less not more.  They want to work smarter not harder.  They want to balance their job with their family time.  I respect all of that.  I just dont want that in my new coach that I want to resuscitate a dying program.

I realize Im in the minority - Im fine with that.

[ColumbiaHeightsHoya]

I think Pitino would give us a season next year like Seton Hall this year and I would be fine with that. We would get a couple marquee transfers, a couple of Iona guys, and hopefully keep Riley/Anglin/Bass and build from there. Maybe bring back a kid like Akok or some WCAC kid looking to come back home. That alone would get us to .500 in conference.

[practice]

Mar 2, 2023 11:24:36 GMT -5 thedragon said:

Mar 2, 2023 9:35:01 GMT -5 prhoya said:

You keep harping on that. There really is no one better who is available right now in a manageable way. It will be a monumental resurrection and load of work to fix the program from the ground up. It will require someone who has done it before and everyone at GU Basketball should get out of the way. It will also require for him to bring his team of trusted people. I trust that he can do it and leave it working in a professional way, not Mary and Pops’ way.

I keep harping on it because I think it greatly matters.

Lets take a quick look at the 4 oldest active coaches in D-1 college basketball:

1.  Jim Boeheim (78)- the decline is nearly complete.  Syracuse is looking for a way out.  
2.  Cliff Ellis (77) - last place in Sun Belt
3.  Leonard Hamilton (74) - one of the worst seasons of his career this season
4.  Jim Larranaga (73) - The best of the older bunch.  Miami is a top 25 team.  Theyve been aided GREATLY in the new NIL environment by booster John Ruiz and his bottomless wallet, of which Georgetown will not have. 

No college coach has won a championship beyond 68 years old (please correct me if this is wrong, but this was the case as of a few years ago).

And again, I dont look at this as any old job a great coach (which Pitino is!) can turn around with a snap of ones fingers.  We have NIL hurdles.  We have administration hurdles.  We have (maybe less so after the Ewing years) academic hurdles.  And we have perception issues.  This isnt simply a .500 team like Xavier who had been a consistent bubble sitter that needed some new energy and took that risk on a much younger coach with a checkered past in Sean Miller.  This isnt the Georgetown of JT3 vintage where first round flameouts could potentially quickly be turned into postseason success.  Assuming Ronny is gone (which I truly believe to be the case) then this is a program that needs rebuilding from the foundation.  There is NOTHING that should be left behind from the PR team to the social team to the SIDs office to the "chief of staff" to strength and conditioning and beyond.  Asking a then 71 year old to lead this from the ground rebuild is a TALL TALL task.  Could he do it?  Sure. He certainly has a track record of success.  But if I was the one handing the keys over to a new coach in the hope of resurrecting a dying program that needs a top to bottom overhaul - hiring a grandfather in his 70s would not be my top choice.  People at that age want to work less not more.  They want to work smarter not harder.  They want to balance their job with their family time.  I respect all of that.  I just dont want that in my new coach that I want to resuscitate a dying program.

I realize Im in the minority - Im fine with that.

Your arguments might ring a little truer if Rick Pitino wasn't Rick Pitino.  Here's a post game presser he gave on Sunday after Iona's 9th straight win:  

I don't know how old you are, but the fact is that 70 today isn't like 70 twenty years ago.  The guy is in great shape physically and mentally he's as sharp as ever.   You don't think he works hard?   You think he has a great work/life balance?  I don't think so.  He's grinding.  He's not burnt out like Jay Wright.   This is a guy who is driven to win.   He literally wins everywhere.  As mentioned previously, at Providence, Kentucky and Louisville, he got his teams to a Final Four in four years or less.   

You're arguments just don't take into account that you are talking about Rick Pitino in 2023 and not some made up retiree who you think is past his prime and just wants to see his grandkids every day.   This is a guy who was fired -- and then got on a plane to coach professionally in Greece and now is at the one college that was smart enough to bring him back to America ... and in both those places, surprise surprise, he's winning.   

Go watch more of his post game press conferences or other videos -- heck check out his Twitter feed -- Pitino is one of the more dynamic and charismatic coaches out there at any age.   He certainly is more energetic than Ewing ... or for that matter more energetic today than JT3 ever was.