IDenj
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Post by IDenj on May 27, 2021 19:14:03 GMT -5
If a player is ready to make the jump the team will gladly take him. Chances are any college kid except high end first rounders will likely spend time in the minors adjusting to life as a pro. Each team can have a max of 50 players under contract in their organization. Players aren’t getting screwed over like in your scenario. I have been around the game all my life, some of my closest friends played years in the NHL and other pro leagues and I have covered the NHL as a reporter for over 20 years. I can assure you teams aren’t holding players back who are ready or screwing a player over. If you have any examples that backs your point feel free to share them. NBA players would be better off with the NHL system. Every basketball player is in a rush to get drafted and sign their contract. Any wonder half never sign a second ticket?
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IDenj
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Post by IDenj on May 27, 2021 19:33:33 GMT -5
My point has always been there is no reason a player in HS can’t be drafted into the NBA and still go to college like NHL. Tweak it so a HS player can say I am not declaring for the draft and want to go to college ( so they aren’t drafted ) or I want to be drafted and still go to college. Let it be the team has two years to sign him or they lose his rights and players can be re drafted. It’s a fair way to keep kids in the NCAA system, kids can develop at their own pace and still not be tied down for four years.
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on May 28, 2021 9:11:29 GMT -5
If a player is ready to make the jump the team will gladly take him. Chances are any college kid except high end first rounders will likely spend time in the minors adjusting to life as a pro. Each team can have a max of 50 players under contract in their organization. Players aren’t getting screwed over like in your scenario. I have been around the game all my life, some of my closest friends played years in the NHL and other pro leagues and I have covered the NHL as a reporter for over 20 years. I can assure you teams aren’t holding players back who are ready or screwing a player over. If you have any examples that backs your point feel free to share them. NBA players would be better off with the NHL system. Every basketball player is in a rush to get drafted and sign their contract. Any wonder half never sign a second ticket? I'll admit knowing very little about hockey but I do know in baseball teams use the two-way contracts to their advantage all the time. A player could kill it in spring training but not get brought up on the opening day roster because the team wants to preserve their options on the player so they'll wait a few weeks to bring the player up. In business, those who have the leverage will use it to their advantage. The reason players don't get 2nd contracts is due to the limited amount of slots in the NBA & G-League, it's a certainty that players will get pushed out each year by newcomers... Outside of the 1 year out of HS rule, the NBA has the least restrictive rules of any sports league in my opinion. Plus they pay the most money to boot...
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IDenj
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Post by IDenj on May 28, 2021 17:05:03 GMT -5
NHL teams will demote guys to the A for salary cap purposes. It’s a business and both the league and PA negotiated that in the CBA. Nothing wrong with it. And players who get pushed out would probably have been better served not rushing to the NBA before they have better development paths. But the mentality of a basketball player is all about get paid now because they feel they have earned it. Which is probably the most selfish mentality of all the pro athletes.
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on May 29, 2021 15:38:44 GMT -5
NHL teams will demote guys to the A for salary cap purposes. It’s a business and both the league and PA negotiated that in the CBA. Nothing wrong with it. And players who get pushed out would probably have been better served not rushing to the NBA before they have better development paths. But the mentality of a basketball player is all about get paid now because they feel they have earned it. Which is probably the most selfish mentality of all the pro athletes. I agree that it's just business but I don't agree that basketball players would be better off in hockey's system even with the HS draft rule... According to this article on hockey the average career length in the NHL is 4.5 years which is similar to the 4.8 for the NBA so even your "better development" argument doesn't hold up in my opinion. If the hockey system is so much better at developing players why aren't their careers a lot longer than NBA careers? It's more than likely due to the yearly draft the league has which pushes less talented players out of the league each year... hockeyanswered.com/what-is-the-average-career-length-of-an-nhl-player/#:~:text=How%20many%20years%20does%20the,plays%20on%20average%204.5%20years.
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IDenj
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Post by IDenj on May 29, 2021 19:06:12 GMT -5
Hockey is a more difficult sport to play. They aren’t developing the same type of skills. It will take time in the minors to continue to develop and hold up to the physical play of the NHL. NBA will draft athletes in the hope they will turn into a basketball player. When these kids don’t make it after three years they don’t earn a second contract. Again the point here is to allow the colleges to retain some talent, for players who aren’t ready for the NBA and want to go to college to do so and to protect NBA teams from wasting a pick on some high school kid who isn’t ready. It’s a win for everyone so I’m still not understanding why you are arguing against it.
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on May 30, 2021 12:53:18 GMT -5
Hockey is a more difficult sport to play. They aren’t developing the same type of skills. It will take time in the minors to continue to develop and hold up to the physical play of the NHL. NBA will draft athletes in the hope they will turn into a basketball player. When these kids don’t make it after three years they don’t earn a second contract. Again the point here is to allow the colleges to retain some talent, for players who aren’t ready for the NBA and want to go to college to do so and to protect NBA teams from wasting a pick on some high school kid who isn’t ready. It’s a win for everyone so I’m still not understanding why you are arguing against it. The NHL drafts kids in the hopes that they will turn into NHL players as well, the only difference is that high draft(1st rounders) picks in the NBA are guaranteed a spot on the team plus a very nice paycheck right away which I'm fine with... I'd bet a nice chunk of change the great majority of hockey draftees would sign up for that as well... Our disconnect may be due to the fact that I don't care about these professional organizations that are worth hundreds of millions or more getting "wins", I prefer everything to be slanted as much as possible to the player's side. Sure Anthony Bennett or Kwame Brown could be labeled as "busts" but they were given a fair chance to make it and got paid millions of dollars while trying. How is that not a win for them? In Hockey's system they probably would have never been called up from the minors which means no chance to make life changing money... Yurtseven played for the G-League affiliate of OKC but was picked up by the Heat, could that have happened in hockey's system? I'm not worried about CBB lacking talent that will never happen, there are too many players out there. As I have stated before any system that allows teams to hold onto players for years isn't a good system for said players...
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IDenj
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Post by IDenj on May 30, 2021 13:58:52 GMT -5
Disagree. It’s a workplace environment and the two parties are entitled to set the rules that govern their industry. You keep bringing up teams holding players rights for more than a year or two as if this has any real bearing on the sport or the individual. If you are ready to come out and play the team will gladly take you. Teams don’t work against their best interests so if you can help them or their minor league team they will sign you. Nobody is being forced into staying in college.
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on May 30, 2021 18:16:54 GMT -5
Disagree. It’s a workplace environment and the two parties are entitled to set the rules that govern their industry. You keep bringing up teams holding players rights for more than a year or two as if this has any real bearing on the sport or the individual. If you are ready to come out and play the team will gladly take you. Teams don’t work against their best interests so if you can help them or their minor league team they will sign you. Nobody is being forced into staying in college. Seems to me you're changing the subject now, I've never stated that the NHL should change their rules in any way. I'm not trying to tell you that the NHL system is bad, I'm telling you that the NBA system is better... This discussion started because you posted that the NBA should adopt the NHL's draft rules, you even stated that the hockey system is much better than the one basketball has... I've disagreed, I've also given several examples as to why I disagree with you...
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IDenj
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Post by IDenj on May 30, 2021 19:37:48 GMT -5
You have stated you don’t agree with my opinion which is fair. But knowing the NHL/NCAA system and the NBA one I can say it will work. Since you have no knowledge in this area but are still attempting to argue your point, I’ll just leave it at that.
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on May 30, 2021 21:56:51 GMT -5
You have stated you don’t agree with my opinion which is fair. But knowing the NHL/NCAA system and the NBA one I can say it will work. Since you have no knowledge in this area but are still attempting to argue your point, I’ll just leave it at that. Enj I've never argued that it wouldn't work, I've argued that it won't be better for the players than what the NBA currently has in place even with the 1 year HS rule... When Otto Porter was brought up as an example you stated both his salary & bonus would be capped and his bonus would have to be negotiated. How would that be better than the guaranteed 8.7 million & the eventual 19 million he made off his rookie contract? I asked you whether Anthony Bennett making millions in his 3-year NBA career was a win for him, you didn't answer. I'll admit to being on the outside looking in but in fairness, you haven't given one example of how a player would be better off with the hockey system...
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Post by professorhoya on May 30, 2021 22:22:33 GMT -5
You have stated you don’t agree with my opinion which is fair. But knowing the NHL/NCAA system and the NBA one I can say it will work. Since you have no knowledge in this area but are still attempting to argue your point, I’ll just leave it at that. Enj I've never argued that it wouldn't work, I've argued that it won't be better for the players than what the NBA currently has in place even with the 1 year HS rule... When Otto Porter was brought up as an example you stated both his salary & bonus would be capped and his bonus would have to be negotiated. How would that be better than the guaranteed 8.7 million & the eventual 19 million he made off his rookie contract? I asked you whether Anthony Bennett making millions in his 3-year NBA career was a win for him, you didn't answer. I'll admit to being on the outside looking in but in fairness, you haven't given one example of how a player would be better off with the hockey system... It's questionable whether Antony Bennett and Kwame had a win for them. From most people's perspective making 500K - 1 million in China could also be a win. But what you really have to consider is could Bennett or Kwame have made more and had better careers if they weren't beaten down so early in there career. (This probably applies more to Kwame since Bennett did go to college for 1 year but you brought up Bennett). The only real way it's a win for Bennet or Kwame is if they were out rights frauds and were still able to snag that initial contract. At the NBA level of play, especially in 2020, almost everyone has the athleticism and measurables. So really what separates people is the mental approach to the game and the work ethic. If that was destroyed early as was the case with Kwame then you've basically just ruined a player who was considered a franchise building block/superstar. Even Bennett had alot of psychological problems, stress and sleeping problems from being picked first which deteriorated his game and emotional well being.
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CTHoya08
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Post by CTHoya08 on May 31, 2021 5:45:42 GMT -5
The advantage for the players of the NHL system is that they don’t have to make an all-or-nothing decision to leave school before they are ready. Sure, the NBA system and the guaranteed money is better for the guys who get picked in the first round, but what about all of the guys who leave early and don’t get drafted?
Personally, I think the baseball model is better than the hockey model, because it doesn’t have the incentive to bail on school mid-semester once the collegiate season ends. But that’s kind of beside the point that’s being argued in this thread. I don’t think that you can say that the NBA system is better for “the players” and then only talk about the players who actually are drafted.
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IDenj
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Post by IDenj on May 31, 2021 7:22:35 GMT -5
You have stated you don’t agree with my opinion which is fair. But knowing the NHL/NCAA system and the NBA one I can say it will work. Since you have no knowledge in this area but are still attempting to argue your point, I’ll just leave it at that. Enj I've never argued that it wouldn't work, I've argued that it won't be better for the players than what the NBA currently has in place even with the 1 year HS rule... When Otto Porter was brought up as an example you stated both his salary & bonus would be capped and his bonus would have to be negotiated. How would that be better than the guaranteed 8.7 million & the eventual 19 million he made off his rookie contract? I asked you whether Anthony Bennett making millions in his 3-year NBA career was a win for him, you didn't answer. I'll admit to being on the outside looking in but in fairness, you haven't given one example of how a player would be better off with the hockey system... It’s not about a player. It’s about finding a balance for all parties involved which is fair. Fair for the player, the NBA and for NCAA. Rushing kids out of high school into the NBA isn’t in my opinion the best solution. You can tweak it for the NBA as opposed to NHL. Make it so high school kids have to declare for NBA with the intention of going college for at least a year. Those kids can be drafted. If a player doesn’t declare they won’t get drafted. Make it a two year bracket where teams can retain their rights. At that point they are guaranteed a certain amount of money if the team chooses not to sign you…and the player can be re drafted. It’s a gamble on both the players part and the teams part. Otto Porter wouldn’t have been drafted as a high school player or after his first year. Nor would he have declared to be drafted ( under the system I proposed ) so he wouldn’t have lost anything. Bennett was a dog. Felt like getting drafted was the finish line and didn’t see it as really the first mile in a marathon. He wasn’t mature enough to see what he had in front of him. Sure he made some quick money; could he have made more and had a longer NBA career had he put in more time working at his craft? You keep bringing up the player and $$$. This is the wrong mentality. The notion that some athlete in high school is owed X amount of money and should get drafted stat is the wrong perspective. Kids are being told how great they are or how they played great in the McDonald’s ASG so they deserve to get paid. Let them develop their skills and work their way thru the system. College, G league, last seat on the bench.
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IDenj
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Post by IDenj on May 31, 2021 7:30:09 GMT -5
The advantage for the players of the NHL system is that they don’t have to make an all-or-nothing decision to leave school before they are ready. Sure, the NBA system and the guaranteed money is better for the guys who get picked in the first round, but what about all of the guys who leave early and don’t get drafted? Personally, I think the baseball model is better than the hockey model, because it doesn’t have the incentive to bail on school mid-semester once the collegiate season ends. But that’s kind of beside the point that’s being argued in this thread. I don’t think that you can say that the NBA system is better for “the players” and then only talk about the players who actually are drafted. Any kid that leaves before the end of the school year do so in April can finish their remaining classes online. I’ve never heard of a kid not completing their last work to get their credits. I have heard numerous players talk about studying for exams or handing in assignments while completing it on road trips. College hockey kids will take their academics seriously. Now if they get their degree…that’s a different matter. You can’t focus on the few kids that get drafted. You need to look and see what’s best for all kids and the NHL/NCAA system works best like you said in that allows kids not to be rushed into making a life altering decision before they are ready. Maybe a system that incorporates the best of MLB/NHL drafts works for the NBA/NCAA.
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on May 31, 2021 10:24:38 GMT -5
The advantage for the players of the NHL system is that they don’t have to make an all-or-nothing decision to leave school before they are ready. Sure, the NBA system and the guaranteed money is better for the guys who get picked in the first round, but what about all of the guys who leave early and don’t get drafted? Personally, I think the baseball model is better than the hockey model, because it doesn’t have the incentive to bail on school mid-semester once the collegiate season ends. But that’s kind of beside the point that’s being argued in this thread. I don’t think that you can say that the NBA system is better for “the players” and then only talk about the players who actually are drafted. In fairness to me I have brought up Yurtseven in this thread... His signing with the Heat after playing the season with the OKC affiliate is a testament to how the NBA has structured the G-League. That wouldn't happen in baseball or hockey... I do agree with you on modifying the baseball model for basketball...
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IDenj
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
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Post by IDenj on May 31, 2021 11:13:37 GMT -5
The advantage for the players of the NHL system is that they don’t have to make an all-or-nothing decision to leave school before they are ready. Sure, the NBA system and the guaranteed money is better for the guys who get picked in the first round, but what about all of the guys who leave early and don’t get drafted? Personally, I think the baseball model is better than the hockey model, because it doesn’t have the incentive to bail on school mid-semester once the collegiate season ends. But that’s kind of beside the point that’s being argued in this thread. I don’t think that you can say that the NBA system is better for “the players” and then only talk about the players who actually are drafted. In fairness to me I have brought up Yurtseven in this thread... His signing with the Heat after playing the season with the OKC affiliate is a testament to how the NBA has structured the G-League. That wouldn't happen in baseball or hockey... I do agree with you on modifying the baseball model for basketball... Why wouldn’t it have happened in hockey? Every year kids who weren’t drafted leave college after their JR and SR seasons and can sign with any team. They are UFA’s. www.nhl.com/news/ncaa-hockey-college-free-agents-scouting-reports-nhl-signings/c-316089562NCAA hockey is not the preferred route to make it in the NHL. It has become a little more popular as the game grows in the USA and the NTDP has ramped up. The more talent kept at BU or UND or Minnesota is better for the game. Would you rather NCAA basketball lose out on on top talent to the G league as it becomes more viable? This is a solution that allows all parties to gain. Edit: You can be drafted between 17 ( as long as you turn 18 by September 15 of that year ) through 20. After that you can’t be drafted. No high end talented kids fall thru the cracks. Any UFA college kids are lucky if they have any type of sustained NHL career. Like Yurt7 who will be lucky to stick or have any type of impact.
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on May 31, 2021 12:14:53 GMT -5
In fairness to me I have brought up Yurtseven in this thread... His signing with the Heat after playing the season with the OKC affiliate is a testament to how the NBA has structured the G-League. That wouldn't happen in baseball or hockey... I do agree with you on modifying the baseball model for basketball... Why wouldn’t it have happened in hockey? Every year kids who weren’t drafted leave college after their JR and SR seasons and can sign with any team. They are UFA’s. www.nhl.com/news/ncaa-hockey-college-free-agents-scouting-reports-nhl-signings/c-316089562NCAA hockey is not the preferred route to make it in the NHL. It has become a little more popular as the game grows in the USA and the NTDP has ramped up. The more talent kept at BU or UND or Minnesota is better for the game. Would you rather NCAA basketball lose out on on top talent to the G league as it becomes more viable? This is a solution that allows all parties to gain. Edit: You can be drafted between 17 ( as long as you turn 18 by September 15 of that year ) through 20. After that you can’t be drafted. No high end talented kids fall thru the cracks. Any UFA college kids are lucky if they have any type of sustained NHL career. Like Yurt7 who will be lucky to stick or have any type of impact. If a player signs with the Rangers and plays for one of their minor league teams can the Canadiens pick them up for their NHL squad if they wanted to?
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on May 31, 2021 13:46:08 GMT -5
Enj I've never argued that it wouldn't work, I've argued that it won't be better for the players than what the NBA currently has in place even with the 1 year HS rule... When Otto Porter was brought up as an example you stated both his salary & bonus would be capped and his bonus would have to be negotiated. How would that be better than the guaranteed 8.7 million & the eventual 19 million he made off his rookie contract? I asked you whether Anthony Bennett making millions in his 3-year NBA career was a win for him, you didn't answer. I'll admit to being on the outside looking in but in fairness, you haven't given one example of how a player would be better off with the hockey system... It’s not about a player. It’s about finding a balance for all parties involved which is fair. Fair for the player, the NBA and for NCAA. Rushing kids out of high school into the NBA isn’t in my opinion the best solution. You can tweak it for the NBA as opposed to NHL. Make it so high school kids have to declare for NBA with the intention of going college for at least a year. Those kids can be drafted. If a player doesn’t declare they won’t get drafted. Make it a two year bracket where teams can retain their rights. At that point they are guaranteed a certain amount of money if the team chooses not to sign you…and the player can be re drafted. It’s a gamble on both the players part and the teams part. Otto Porter wouldn’t have been drafted as a high school player or after his first year. Nor would he have declared to be drafted ( under the system I proposed ) so he wouldn’t have lost anything. Bennett was a dog. Felt like getting drafted was the finish line and didn’t see it as really the first mile in a marathon. He wasn’t mature enough to see what he had in front of him. Sure he made some quick money; could he have made more and had a longer NBA career had he put in more time working at his craft? You keep bringing up the player and $$$. This is the wrong mentality. The notion that some athlete in high school is owed X amount of money and should get drafted stat is the wrong perspective. Kids are being told how great they are or how they played great in the McDonald’s ASG so they deserve to get paid. Let them develop their skills and work their way thru the system. College, G league, last seat on the bench. I'll say it again, I don't care what's fair for billion-dollar businesses(especially the NCAA) if it means they're getting more control over players... The NBA isn't rushing kids, it's the kids & the folks around them who want to make the leap as soon as possible and I have no issue with that. Advocating for a system to pay them less money and give them less control of their careers so they can "develop doesn't sit right with me... I bring up the money because that's what's available to prospects now and I don't see why it should be lessened in a different system. In my view, you can't talk about it being a business in one post and then state that thinking about money is the wrong attitude in another... As CThoya stated in a previous post a modified version of the baseball rule would be the best solution...
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IDenj
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
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Post by IDenj on May 31, 2021 15:09:02 GMT -5
Why wouldn’t it have happened in hockey? Every year kids who weren’t drafted leave college after their JR and SR seasons and can sign with any team. They are UFA’s. www.nhl.com/news/ncaa-hockey-college-free-agents-scouting-reports-nhl-signings/c-316089562NCAA hockey is not the preferred route to make it in the NHL. It has become a little more popular as the game grows in the USA and the NTDP has ramped up. The more talent kept at BU or UND or Minnesota is better for the game. Would you rather NCAA basketball lose out on on top talent to the G league as it becomes more viable? This is a solution that allows all parties to gain. Edit: You can be drafted between 17 ( as long as you turn 18 by September 15 of that year ) through 20. After that you can’t be drafted. No high end talented kids fall thru the cracks. Any UFA college kids are lucky if they have any type of sustained NHL career. Like Yurt7 who will be lucky to stick or have any type of impact. If a player signs with the Rangers and plays for one of their minor league teams can the Canadiens pick them up for their NHL squad if they wanted to? You have a contract with one team but you aren’t happy there so you decide you want to break the contract and sign with another team? Is that your question?
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