rockhoya
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The Scheme
Apr 14, 2020 10:09:26 GMT -5
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Post by rockhoya on Apr 14, 2020 10:09:26 GMT -5
The irony is you’re the one being naive. I don’t have to do thought experiments, I’m not developing theories. Your hyperbole and blanket statements aren’t true and aren’t helpful. Again, if you haven’t experienced it don’t speak on it. Period. You just can’t conceive of a world where someone can excel in the court/field and in the classroom, I get it. You’re in your own fears. I assure you there are plenty of young men and women out there with much more courage than you that have taken on the challenge of pushing themselves both athletically and academically. Again, just because SOME student-athletes don’t love school doesn’t mean that they all don’t. Just like because SOME regular students don’t love school doesn’t mean that all regular students don’t like school. He’s a bit more tangible (theoretical) example. You think Akinjo had the same level of respect for the classroom as each and every one of his teammates did? If they were all just on campus to play basketball and party, might they not have gotten along better? Teams have all different personalities no matter how big or small. There will always be a group of student athletes that push themselves academically too. I think you’re way too focused on conflating a one and done’s experience with the average college athlete’s. You really think the Stanford’s of the world, the Northwesterns, the Ivies, etc. really only bring these kids to play sports? These programs are highly selective at any level and so many have the option to choose athletes with academic aspiration. Again, it’s insulting to imply that one can’t do both, even if that’s not your primary implication. I think you just proved our point. When was the last time an Ivy, Northwestern or Stanford won a national championship or were even nationally ranked/relevant? Watching Notre Dame football slowly sink into irrelevance also proves that you can't do both anymore. Okay, so now an athletic program only counts when it wins a championship? Keep moving those goalposts man. Not to mention all those programs you’re referring to are actually relevant. In case you forgot we lost to an Ivy team the last time in tournament play and those programs are frequently and annually relevant. Are you really trying to say that only like 7% of the total teams (top 25) in the NCAA count as having actual basketball programs? And therefore they’re professional teams and the others they compete against are not just to make the argument that student athletes don’t go to class at all (so you feel better that you were such a slave to the classroom)? What am I missing here? Not to mention one anecdotal example (ND) that has fallen off over the years, not at all due to the ability of humans to challenge themselves academically and athletically (you think the supply has just run out?) doesn’t justify your position.
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daveg023
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Apr 14, 2020 10:25:17 GMT -5
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Post by daveg023 on Apr 14, 2020 10:25:17 GMT -5
If anyone is disputing the fact that major D1 sports AREN’T for profit businesses in which the majority of players could care less about their academic degree, then you must also think it’s 1984 still. The network TV money and the draw of a pro contact at the next level (NBA or NFL) have changed the landscape to a point where it’s not even debatable anymore. Only at the lowest of mid majors is their any semblance of amateur athletics and a concept of student athletes who choose a school first and the athletic program second. A Georgetown degree sadly means nothing to most of these kids, if anything it works against us as they know their required coursework may be tougher. Case in point you’ll see kids more interested in a commuter school like Iona now with the chance to play for Pitino. Do you think any of those kids he is getting even heard of Iona before or was interested in the school? The irony is you’re the one being naive. I don’t have to do thought experiments, I’m not developing theories. Your hyperbole and blanket statements aren’t true and aren’t helpful. Again, if you haven’t experienced it don’t speak on it. Period. You just can’t conceive of a world where someone can excel in the court/field and in the classroom, I get it. You’re in your own fears. I assure you there are plenty of young men and women out there with much more courage than you that have taken on the challenge of pushing themselves both athletically and academically. Again, just because SOME student-athletes don’t love school doesn’t mean that they all don’t. Just like because SOME regular students don’t love school doesn’t mean that all regular students don’t like school. He’s a bit more tangible (theoretical) example. You think Akinjo had the same level of respect for the classroom as each and every one of his teammates did? If they were all just on campus to play basketball and party, might they not have gotten along better? Teams have all different personalities no matter how big or small. There will always be a group of student athletes that push themselves academically too. I think you’re way too focused on conflating a one and done’s experience with the average college athlete’s. You really think the Stanford’s of the world, the Northwesterns, the Ivies, etc. really only bring these kids to play sports? These programs are highly selective at any level and so many have the option to choose athletes with academic aspiration. Again, it’s insulting to imply that one can’t do both, even if that’s not your primary implication. Part of me wants to just ignore this comment and diatribe but hopefully I’ll just reaffirm my point. Also, I don’t understand why you need to make attacks on me or get personally offended because you don’t like the message, but I guess that’s the nature of a message board. First, I’m not implying there aren’t plenty of kids who choose schools for an a academic experience, but I do think it’s an ever increasing minority of kids. Nor am I saying that some of these athletes aren’t taking their courses seriously nor are capable of balancing athletics and academics; not sure in what I said how you made that conclusion other than for the sake of argument. We have had tons of kids who have exemplified this. That being said I think their decision to come to Georgetown was basketball first, the school second. Can I prove that? No. Could it be a factor? Sure. But at the same time if school was the primary motivator then how are recruits looking at Georgetown and Ole Miss, Oklahoma State, or Arizona State in the same boat? These schools have nothing in common academically, location-wise, size, etc. I know when I chose a college I identified common traits and likewise when you see someone apply to Georgetown as a general student, I’m pretty sure their list of applications are more likely to contain BC, Duke, Northwestern, Notre Dame, Ivies, etc than Memphis or West Virginia. So how could you possibly argue there isn’t a basketball first lens these kids look at these schools through I’ll add, I know firsthand of kids who have been directed to schools we all know and the academic reputation or programs the university have to offer has ZERO to do with those decisions. This isn’t just an Louisville or Arizona problem. It’s a lot more widespread than you’d imagine. My larger point was that one is pretty naive if you think college athletics at major D1 schools are anything but a business at this point. My argument wasn’t so much that these aren’t “student athletes” but the concept of “amateur athletics” has eroded so greatly, that pretending there is this purity of college athletics seems ill conceived. Have you ever seen the map of the highest paid public employee in every state? In 40/50 states it’s the head football or head basketball coach of the state university, not the president of the school. There’ll be kids who take advantage of the system and leverage it to get a high quality education for free. But there’s also a lot of kids who are there to play a sport and the rest is just a mild annoyance. It just is what it is.
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Bigs"R"Us
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Apr 14, 2020 13:15:54 GMT -5
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Post by Bigs"R"Us on Apr 14, 2020 13:15:54 GMT -5
Duke and UVA are a few I can name, but it’s hard to bridge both worlds. Vanderbilt is trying.
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Post by reformation on Apr 14, 2020 16:58:19 GMT -5
ND and Stanford and periodically NW have relevant football programs-they are generally not in BCS final 4 but are generally top 20 or better. basketball has not been as good, though clearly FBALL is the priority at those places--not sure if the irrelevance comment was meant to be bball specific. For football its not really accurate
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drquigley
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Post by drquigley on Apr 14, 2020 20:59:47 GMT -5
ND and Stanford and periodically NW have relevant football programs-they are generally not in BCS final 4 but are generally top 20 or better. basketball has not been as good, though clearly FBALL is the priority at those places--not sure if the irrelevance comment was meant to be bball specific. For football its not really accurate Yes there are kids who value academics as well as athletics and excel at both. But there is no way that you can have a national football powerhouse at a school that truly places academic demands on its students.
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hoya9797
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Post by hoya9797 on Apr 14, 2020 21:02:57 GMT -5
ND and Stanford and periodically NW have relevant football programs-they are generally not in BCS final 4 but are generally top 20 or better. basketball has not been as good, though clearly FBALL is the priority at those places--not sure if the irrelevance comment was meant to be bball specific. For football its not really accurate Yes there are kids who value academics as well as athletics and excel at both. But there is no way that you can have a national football powerhouse at a school that truly places academic demands on its students. All its students or just the football players?
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drquigley
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Post by drquigley on Apr 15, 2020 15:42:10 GMT -5
Yes there are kids who value academics as well as athletics and excel at both. But there is no way that you can have a national football powerhouse at a school that truly places academic demands on its students. All its students or just the football players? "Student/Athletes"
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Post by bearsandbulls on Apr 15, 2020 17:46:50 GMT -5
ND and Stanford and periodically NW have relevant football programs-they are generally not in BCS final 4 but are generally top 20 or better. basketball has not been as good, though clearly FBALL is the priority at those places--not sure if the irrelevance comment was meant to be bball specific. For football its not really accurate Yes there are kids who value academics as well as athletics and excel at both. But there is no way that you can have a national football powerhouse at a school that truly places academic demands on its students. Whether we like it, and all its implications, or not, this statement is pretty true. The time demands for a football player in his sport are so great that not many majors at good academic schools are even possible. At Cal I believe that one football player graduated in the School of Engineering since the turn of the century. With over 100 players on roster at any one time this speaks to the time commitment to that major, and the near impossibllity of doing both. The problems of recruiting are the same at both schools as the academic requirements are so high, and the coaches must be sure the athlete can pass muster with admissions before even getting serious in the recruiting aspect. This puts our coaches a year or two behind, literally behind the eight ball. Then, with the current trend of Grad Transfers, Cal has the same problem with its grad schools being across the board tops in the country. We just don't get many transfers, as the School of Public Policy is probably the best bet for grad transfers to qualify. With that said, student athletes in almost all other sports at G'town and Cal are more student oriented. They are there for the education. If a pro career is possible after, nice; but the back up of a degree from either is even better. Soccer, baseball, field hockey, lacrosse, water polo, swimming, tennis, golf all tend to get athletes that are very close to on par with the general student body. BB and FB, for the most part, not so. Finally, you get to five star and most four star BB and FB players and for the most part they are at your school to better themselves athletically for "the league". They, for the most part, would prefer an Arizona State where a strong pulse gets you admitted, and the day to day rigors are not what they are at G'town. Tis just the way it is.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Apr 15, 2020 17:53:53 GMT -5
While I do not think that academics are the main driving factor in WHY most kids choose their school, I do think it's noteworthy that at least some of our players have made the Big East All Academic team, which I believe is a 3.0+ GPA, which at Georgetown is nothing to scoff at when you combine the crazy schedules these guys have had.
Last year, McClung and Mourning made the team, as did Muresan. In 2017-2018, Mosely and Mourning made it.
And many athletes in other sports make the list every year.
So even if it isn't their top priority, at least some guys do take advantage of the academics and do well in all repects.
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hoyainla
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Post by hoyainla on Apr 16, 2020 15:19:21 GMT -5
Imagine reading this thread and thinking that a comparison of 4 and 5 star college football and basketball players applies to most student athletes for the purposes of this thread. Imagine getting so offended at the notion that calling out the education desires of those 4 and 5 star players causes you to start calling people out. Sounds like someone is very upset and likely played a college sport that wasn't one of the big ones or at a school where they didn't attract the same level of athlete and is trying to apply it to what everyone is talking about. It's honestly quite funny. Carry on.
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hoyainla
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Post by hoyainla on Apr 16, 2020 15:22:11 GMT -5
On another note the Jalen Green deal today should make the G League a lot more desirable for the 5 star guys that we don't seem to have a chance with. Now it's just a matter of if this causes a trickle down that effects us or if it evens the playing field. I guess there is a alternate theory that says the Kentucky's and Duke's could get even stronger because they could still get the best players and those players would actually stay in school longer.
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Apr 16, 2020 15:37:14 GMT -5
On another note the Jalen Green deal today should make the G League a lot more desirable for the 5 star guys that we don't seem to have a chance with. Now it's just a matter of if this causes a trickle down that effects us or if it evens the playing field. I guess there is a alternate theory that says the Kentucky's and Duke's could get even stronger because they could still get the best players and those players would actually stay in school longer. This is exactly what will happen but they can only get so strong since there are scholarship restrictions...
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Post by HoyaRejuveNation85 on Apr 16, 2020 17:17:49 GMT -5
On another note the Jalen Green deal today should make the G League a lot more desirable for the 5 star guys that we don't seem to have a chance with. Now it's just a matter of if this causes a trickle down that effects us or if it evens the playing field. I guess there is a alternate theory that says the Kentucky's and Duke's could get even stronger because they could still get the best players and those players would actually stay in school longer. This is exactly what will happen but they can only get so strong since there are scholarship restrictions... I could see this happening. Maybe the NCAA should consider a limit on how many transfers a given school can take over a 4 year period without a scholarship penalty. That might prevent the same blue bloods from continually raiding the lower ranks for hidden gems or players that those lower schools have developed. It still allows for player movement and might help competitive balance.
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