Georgetown @ Butler 1/2/19 Discussion

[hoyainla]

Jan 3, 2019 13:24:50 GMT -5 @yaboynyp said:

You hire assistants because of their connections. Their job is to use those connections to get players. The coach has the final say.

This is like a normal thing...

Of course Pat is the end all be all but would it hurt anyone to say the staff or Waheed did a great job of scouting and landing Greg. Or the staff did a great job of getting player X to Georgetown. I follow other teams in other college sports and assistants get credit all the time. People even talk about the Duke assistants and they have Coach K. For the Hoyas its like we have Pat and that's it. It's got to the point I had no idea what the rest of the staff really did outside of Orr having us ready to play Cuse. I had no idea Waheed is the reason that Greg was here. By the way that really isn't meant to be a complaint on Pat. It's more on how he is perceived. Pat is putting in the work and can identify talent. He has other issues but that's not one. I just couldn't believe the amount of credit Pat got last night for going out and finding Greg and then actually playing him.

None of this changes my original point that I feel Pat has the guys that he feels more responsible for being here and those players get a bigger role then the others that for whatever reason he wasn't the main guy that got them here.

Before anyone jumps in with you just hate Pat always have always will. First off you know how dumb that sounds being a lifelong Hoyas fan. I led the charge on getting on JT3 and thinking it was time for him to go. When people bash him for something I think is unfair such as his recruiting ability or losing to worse teams than he actually lost to I defend him. I wasn't popping bottles when Pat was hired but I sure wasn't mad. There are others on here that just hate to hate but that ain't me. I will give credit where credit is due and criticism where I feel it is due.

[hoyasaxa2003]

Jan 3, 2019 15:21:58 GMT -5 michaelgrahmstylie said:

One thing I've noticed about Pat, he does not change his original starting five often. Mac and Mourning back in as starters. Again, it is not about who starts; it's about contribution and winning.

Unless you started Mourning and pulled him out right away (which would make no sense), there would be no reason to start Mourning. And here's why:

- LeBlanc's is shooting twos at 67.5% and Mourning at 49.1%.
- LeBlance's offensive efficiency is 120.5 to Mourning's 97 (meaning, LeBlanc scores on average 1.23 points per possession compared to Mourning at 0.97 points).
- LeBlanc gets to the line at a much higher rate than Mourning.
- LeBlanc is far and away a better defender than Mourning, as was demonstrated on the Casual Hoya article not long ago, to the extent that opponents score more against us when Mourning plays.
- LeBlanc gets a lot more blocks and steals than Mourning.

For these reasons, anything more than spot minutes here and there significantly detracts from the quality of our team.

I would also add that despite LeBlanc playing a lot more the last two games, LeBlanc overall has played 56.5% of available minutes, to Mourning's 45.4%. 45.4% is way too much time, when you have a much better alternative.

There is no defensible argument to start Mourning and/or to play him much more than 5 minutes a game.

[thedragon]

What there is no defensible argument of - is only playing Mourning 5 minutes per game when healthy. Even if you believe he is not a better starter than Leblanc (totally fair and I agree), he is BY FAR the best backup big we have. He should be getting most of the backup 4 and 5 spot minutes. Thats at least 15 minutes a game.

[joey0403p]

Jan 3, 2019 16:00:10 GMT -5 thedragon said:

What there is no defensible argument of - is only playing Mourning 5 minutes per game when healthy. Even if you believe he is not a better starter than Leblanc (totally fair and I agree), he is BY FAR the best backup big we have. He should be getting most of the backup 4 and 5 spot minutes. Thats at least 15 minutes a game.

completely agree. Govan and Leblanc should get majority of mins, but we need to find time for morning and ~5 mins for carter a game to build the depth

[hoyasaxa2003]

Jan 3, 2019 16:00:10 GMT -5 thedragon said:

What there is no defensible argument of - is only playing Mourning 5 minutes per game when healthy. Even if you believe he is not a better starter than Leblanc (totally fair and I agree), he is BY FAR the best backup big we have. He should be getting most of the backup 4 and 5 spot minutes. Thats at least 15 minutes a game.

15 minutes is way too much. I could live with 5-10, but 15 is just too much. I would rather play small, with Pickett or Malinowski at the 4 and LeBlanc at the 5, if needed. Mourning being 6'10 doesn't help that much when he cannot defend and let's his big get around him for easy baskets.

If we do need 15 minutes of backup, I would give Carter at least half the time. He's the future, Mourning is not.

[Deleted]

Jan 3, 2019 15:46:09 GMT -5 hoyainla said:

Jan 3, 2019 13:24:50 GMT -5 @yaboynyp said:

You hire assistants because of their connections. Their job is to use those connections to get players. The coach has the final say.

This is like a normal thing...

Of course Pat is the end all be all but would it hurt anyone to say the staff or Waheed did a great job of scouting and landing Greg. Or the staff did a great job of getting player X to Georgetown. I follow other teams in other college sports and assistants get credit all the time. People even talk about the Duke assistants and they have Coach K. For the Hoyas its like we have Pat and that's it. It's got to the point I had no idea what the rest of the staff really did outside of Orr having us ready to play Cuse. I had no idea Waheed is the reason that Greg was here. By the way that really isn't meant to be a complaint on Pat. It's more on how he is perceived. Pat is putting in the work and can identify talent. He has other issues but that's not one. I just couldn't believe the amount of credit Pat got last night for going out and finding Greg and then actually playing him.

None of this changes my original point that I feel Pat has the guys that he feels more responsible for being here and those players get a bigger role then the others that for whatever reason he wasn't the main guy that got them here.

Before anyone jumps in with you just hate Pat always have always will. First off you know how dumb that sounds being a lifelong Hoyas fan. I led the charge on getting on JT3 and thinking it was time for him to go. When people bash him for something I think is unfair such as his recruiting ability or losing to worse teams than he actually lost to I defend him. I wasn't popping bottles when Pat was hired but I sure wasn't mad. There are others on here that just hate to hate but that ain't me. I will give credit where credit is due and criticism where I feel it is due.

Ok, but you said "Pat lucked up with Greg". Asisstants 9-10 do 80% of the leg work on recruits. Waheed gets all credit for building the relationship, but you discredit a HC's role when you say lucked up into a kid, not the other way around. A head coach is the sole decider of who is in his program. He's not adding anyone unless he sees potential in him, and his scout is the only one that matters.

None of this changes my original point that I feel Pat has the guys that he feels more responsible for being here and those players get a bigger role then the others that for whatever reason he wasn't the main guy that got them here.

I just think that's an odd assumption to make when he's doing normal things that most coaches do in rebuilding programs. They play their young guys, maybe a little more than the numbers say they should. The reason is because they want to establish a program that competes year after year. You're creating a foundation to build off.

[wnyhoya]

Jan 2, 2019 22:46:40 GMT -5 SFHoya99 said:

Jan 2, 2019 22:43:06 GMT -5 professorhoya said:

The great thing was that they knew that Greg was hot and still couldn't stop him. His size (especially at the 2) and skills make him hard to defend even if you focus on him.

If he can start to reliably hit that curl play -- he did once in the second half -- it's completely unstoppable, especially at the college level. That's a Klay Thompson special, snd you can get that shot anytime against anyone. It's just hard as hell to hit.

It really is and the great thing is that once the screener’s defender starts to jump over the screen to Greg that opens him up to a nice slip and short jumper, or even layup depending on where the backside D is

[michaelgrahmstylie]

Isn't great to be having such a vigorous debate about what is--essentially, the DEPTH of this team?!

[FrazierFanatic]

Actually Kirby has received credit - both when III was coach and currently - for paving the way, especially in the south

[ewingitrust]

I've watched the replay of this game 3 times already lol. The Big East is there to be had.

[sleepy]

Jan 3, 2019 18:18:04 GMT -5 FrazierFanatic said:

Actually Kirby has received credit - both when III was coach and currently - for paving the way, especially in the south

Yea, didn't he do the heavy lifting with Leblanc?

Ah, that must explain why Leblanc wasn't starting behind Mourning. By George! I think we've got it!

[hoyainla]

Jan 3, 2019 16:49:08 GMT -5 @yaboynyp said:

Jan 3, 2019 15:46:09 GMT -5 hoyainla said:

Of course Pat is the end all be all but would it hurt anyone to say the staff or Waheed did a great job of scouting and landing Greg. Or the staff did a great job of getting player X to Georgetown. I follow other teams in other college sports and assistants get credit all the time. People even talk about the Duke assistants and they have Coach K. For the Hoyas its like we have Pat and that's it. It's got to the point I had no idea what the rest of the staff really did outside of Orr having us ready to play Cuse. I had no idea Waheed is the reason that Greg was here. By the way that really isn't meant to be a complaint on Pat. It's more on how he is perceived. Pat is putting in the work and can identify talent. He has other issues but that's not one. I just couldn't believe the amount of credit Pat got last night for going out and finding Greg and then actually playing him.

None of this changes my original point that I feel Pat has the guys that he feels more responsible for being here and those players get a bigger role then the others that for whatever reason he wasn't the main guy that got them here.

Before anyone jumps in with you just hate Pat always have always will. First off you know how dumb that sounds being a lifelong Hoyas fan. I led the charge on getting on JT3 and thinking it was time for him to go. When people bash him for something I think is unfair such as his recruiting ability or losing to worse teams than he actually lost to I defend him. I wasn't popping bottles when Pat was hired but I sure wasn't mad. There are others on here that just hate to hate but that ain't me. I will give credit where credit is due and criticism where I feel it is due.

Ok, but you said "Pat lucked up with Greg". Asisstants 9-10 do 80% of the leg work on recruits. Waheed gets all credit for building the relationship, but you discredit a HC's role when you say lucked up into a kid, not the other way around. A head coach is the sole decider of who is in his program. He's not adding anyone unless he sees potential in him, and his scout is the only one that matters.

None of this changes my original point that I feel Pat has the guys that he feels more responsible for being here and those players get a bigger role then the others that for whatever reason he wasn't the main guy that got them here.

I just think that's an odd assumption to make when he's doing normal things that most coaches do in rebuilding programs. They play their young guys, maybe a little more than the numbers say they should. The reason is because they want to establish a program that competes year after year. You're creating a foundation to build off.

I said lucked up because I didn't know the Wahees connection. I knew Pat didn't spend lots of time pursuing him. I figured Greg wanted to go to a better academic and basketball school that was close to home and there we were. He didn't seem like a Pat priority. That is why after LC posted the waheed connection I said it made a lot of sense. I'm sorry you can't convince me Pat sought out Greg just to sit him. Maybe he didn't realize how talented he was before but it was very easy to see once games started. Not sure if that is better or worse honestly. I just know that he wasn't playing enough to the detriment of the team until Mac went down.

As for playing you guys more than they should I would say that is definitley true and said many high level sports people do it. I still don't agree with it. I also don't believe this team has been devoid of talent as others. I feel the number 1 priority should be to win games. It makes the fan base happy and it draws recruits more than any other factor. There are plenty of minutes for the freshman that would get them the experience they need without costing the team wins. We are just rehashing a discussion we have already had.

[hoyainla]

Jan 3, 2019 18:42:32 GMT -5 sleepy said:

Jan 3, 2019 18:18:04 GMT -5 FrazierFanatic said:

Actually Kirby has received credit - both when III was coach and currently - for paving the way, especially in the south

Yea, didn't he do the heavy lifting with Leblanc?

Ah, that must explain why Leblanc wasn't starting behind Mourning. By George! I think we've got it!

Let's be real Darrel did the heavy lifting on Josh but yes Kirby was the lead. Kirby was the lead on Carter as well.

[sleepy]

Jan 3, 2019 18:49:11 GMT -5 hoyainla said:

Jan 3, 2019 16:49:08 GMT -5 @yaboynyp said:

Ok, but you said "Pat lucked up with Greg". Asisstants 9-10 do 80% of the leg work on recruits. Waheed gets all credit for building the relationship, but you discredit a HC's role when you say lucked up into a kid, not the other way around. A head coach is the sole decider of who is in his program. He's not adding anyone unless he sees potential in him, and his scout is the only one that matters.



I just think that's an odd assumption to make when he's doing normal things that most coaches do in rebuilding programs. They play their young guys, maybe a little more than the numbers say they should. The reason is because they want to establish a program that competes year after year. You're creating a foundation to build off.

I said lucked up because I didn't know the Wahees connection. I knew Pat didn't spend lots of time pursuing him. I figured Greg wanted to go to a better academic and basketball school that was close to home and there we were. He didn't seem like a Pat priority. That is why after LC posted the waheed connection I said it made a lot of sense. I'm sorry you can't convince me Pat sought out Greg just to sit him. Maybe he didn't realize how talented he was before but it was very easy to see once games started. Not sure if that is better or worse honestly. I just know that he wasn't playing enough to the detriment of the team until Mac went down.

As for playing you guys more than they should I would say that is definitley true and said many high level sports people do it. I still don't agree with it. I also don't believe this team has been devoid of talent as others. I feel the number 1 priority should be to win games. It makes the fan base happy and it draws recruits more than any other factor. There are plenty of minutes for the freshman that would get them the experience they need without costing the team wins. We are just rehashing a discussion we have already had.

So you just made a bunch of stuff up and then put a narrative around it to fit your crazy conspiracy theory?

Greg has been the first replacement starter since the beginning of the season. Clearly Ewing knew what he had in him, just didn't feel the need to utilize him in the OOC. You disagree with his approach, fine. But no need to make things up.

[vamosalaplaya]

While we are talking about assistants, I was at a reunion a two years ago with a few of my classmates and we were standing outside the new Thompson Center at 10 am on reunion Saturday just sort of peering in because we didn't know what it was about. I don't know what made us just wander down there but everything was locked. Robert Kirby is coming in for work; he offers to give us a tour and proceeds to open the doors and then spend 15 minutes walking us around the building, including the locker rooms and the practice court and telling us all about the programs. A class act and a gentleman.

[MCIGuy]

Jan 3, 2019 15:46:09 GMT -5 hoyainla said:

Jan 3, 2019 13:24:50 GMT -5 @yaboynyp said:

You hire assistants because of their connections. Their job is to use those connections to get players. The coach has the final say.

This is like a normal thing...

Of course Pat is the end all be all but would it hurt anyone to say the staff or Waheed did a great job of scouting and landing Greg. Or the staff did a great job of getting player X to Georgetown. I follow other teams in other college sports and assistants get credit all the time.

Head coaches are RARELY the guys putting in the most time in recruiting or doing the most ground work in terms of establishing connections or interests. Nonetheless as the face of the coaching staff head coaches are the ones given the credit simply because most people don't get into the weeds of how these things are done on the recruiting front. However the downside is that the head coach takes the blame the vast majority of the time if the players he brings in disappoint. The buck stops with him. If a current player is a bust or if the Hoyas miss out on a key recruit and people use that as a reason to criticize Ewing's recruiting prowess, do you step in and correct Hoya fans that such-and-such recruit was brought in by Waheed? I'm guessing not. Ewing is ultimately responsible for recruiting results because he was the one who hired the coaches who would do the recruiting.

[Deleted]

Jan 3, 2019 18:49:11 GMT -5 hoyainla said:

Jan 3, 2019 16:49:08 GMT -5 @yaboynyp said:

Ok, but you said "Pat lucked up with Greg". Asisstants 9-10 do 80% of the leg work on recruits. Waheed gets all credit for building the relationship, but you discredit a HC's role when you say lucked up into a kid, not the other way around. A head coach is the sole decider of who is in his program. He's not adding anyone unless he sees potential in him, and his scout is the only one that matters.



I just think that's an odd assumption to make when he's doing normal things that most coaches do in rebuilding programs. They play their young guys, maybe a little more than the numbers say they should. The reason is because they want to establish a program that competes year after year. You're creating a foundation to build off.

I said lucked up because I didn't know the Wahees connection. I knew Pat didn't spend lots of time pursuing him. I figured Greg wanted to go to a better academic and basketball school that was close to home and there we were. He didn't seem like a Pat priority. That is why after LC posted the waheed connection I said it made a lot of sense. I'm sorry you can't convince me Pat sought out Greg just to sit him. Maybe he didn't realize how talented he was before but it was very easy to see once games started. Not sure if that is better or worse honestly. I just know that he wasn't playing enough to the detriment of the team until Mac went down.

As for playing you guys more than they should I would say that is definitley true and said many high level sports people do it. I still don't agree with it. I also don't believe this team has been devoid of talent as others. I feel the number 1 priority should be to win games. It makes the fan base happy and it draws recruits more than any other factor. There are plenty of minutes for the freshman that would get them the experience they need without costing the team wins. We are just rehashing a discussion we have already had.

Ok, and no offense intended but maybe you're just wrong.

Maybe you are playing loose with facts and adding a lot of opinion to support a narrative that you built in your mind. Josh Hart wanted Georgetown too, he ended up at Nova. You can't discount the HC's role in landing a player. Waheed can't overule Ewing. Pat alone decides who is on his roster. You're trying to make a completely normal thing sound like it's abnormal.

It's doesn't make a lot of sense to float the idea that a coach would rather lose with his guys than win with somebody else's. That just doesn't sound logical and Mal is one of his recruits. There's always a bigger picture in play and just because somebody doesn't execute your vision doesn't mean they are wrong or don't understand the game. We all play expert on the board but in reality 99% of us are just fans with a kenpom subscription.

[ewingitrust]

I replayed the butler game 5 times already lol

[Bigs"R"Us]

Folks have agendas and biases that they forward any time possible.

[jwp91]

Jan 4, 2019 7:41:53 GMT -5 ewingitrust said:

I replayed the butler game 5 times already lol

So what have you seen?

I replayed the 1st half. I really like Govan & Kaleb’s interior passing. Akinjo was killing it offensively. Pickett was a monster on D. Greg lost his man trying to help and as he was recovering he got a fortunately steal...lol.

I have several hours on a plane today. I look forward to watching the 2nd half again and then maybe watch PIckett in isolation throughout the game.