Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2018 14:56:30 GMT -5
"There's this sense that people in those communities are not getting their fair share compared to people in the cities," as Katherine Cramer, a political science professor at the University of Wisconsin, told NPR in August. "They feel like their communities are dying, and they perceive that all that stuff — the young people, the money, the livelihood — is going somewhere, and it's going to the cities," she said." Anecdotally, I have extended family in small farming communities in deep red Trump country. Two generations ago, everyone farmed and stayed in town until they died. One generation ago, about half of everyone stayed in town, taking over the family farms and running the business. The other half left, went off to college, and moved to mid-sized or large cities. The current generation? No interest or desire to farm, to stay in the small town. Even those who haven't gone off to college have left the small town and moved to metro areas. And - not for nothing - more and more of the long-time family farmland is being bought up by larger, corporate farming operations. Which has its own implications. Why are the young people leaving? Because they have been exposed to a world much larger than where they grew up, and they want to experience that world. They realize that they can leave the small town and succeed elsewhere, so they do. Their moms and dads and aunts and uncles (and certainly their grandparents) never had that exposure, never thought that they wanted or needed to leave, and were able to build a nice life where they were. So they did. Young people now understand that they can be in places that are more dynamic, with greater job prospects, with other young people, etc. And that doesn't necessarily mean San Francisco or New York or Los Angeles or DC. It could be Kansas City or Cleveland or Louisville. The economics of small-town America don't work the way they used to. That's a ty thing for people who have spent their lives in communities that are crumbling. But it's a reality. What's great is that Republicans of just a few years ago would have said "Pull yourself up by your bootstraps and make a better life for yourself! Don't whine and blame your problems on someone else!" I guess there's another thing that Republicans now find to be quaint.
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EtomicB
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 15,100
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Post by EtomicB on Oct 11, 2018 15:19:12 GMT -5
What's the difference between working-class people in cities and rural areas DFW? I've read about this disconnect Clinton had from suburban & rural folks but I don't get why the message to them has to be so much different.. Lots of hypotheses but this one is as good as any: "It's impossible to tell exactly what is widening this rural-urban gap. After all, a lot of interconnected demographic factors are related to voting patterns. Ruralness is just one more, and it intersects with a few other factors that predicted Trump support: rural Americans are more likely to be white and less likely to have college degrees than people in urban areas, and both whiteness and lower levels of college education are characteristics connected to voting for Trump.
"There's this sense that people in those communities are not getting their fair share compared to people in the cities," as Katherine Cramer, a political science professor at the University of Wisconsin, told NPR in August. "They feel like their communities are dying, and they perceive that all that stuff — the young people, the money, the livelihood — is going somewhere, and it's going to the cities," she said."
And this data was out there well before the election. Clinton's team ignored it and banked on the women's vote in the suburbs to bring home the vote. It failed. Do you buy into this theory? How can rural white folks possibly think their livelihood is going to the cities? To me, the loss of jobs in coal mining states is no different than the loss of manufacturing jobs in cities like Detroit or Flint, Michigan... The message to these voters should be very similar imo but it's not, why is that? Again, I've heard a lot about Clinton not reaching the "white working class voter" but what makes them different than the "POC working class voter"?
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hoyarooter
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 10,307
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Post by hoyarooter on Oct 11, 2018 19:58:04 GMT -5
What's the difference between working-class people in cities and rural areas DFW? I've read about this disconnect Clinton had from suburban & rural folks but I don't get why the message to them has to be so much different.. Lots of hypotheses but this one is as good as any: "It's impossible to tell exactly what is widening this rural-urban gap. After all, a lot of interconnected demographic factors are related to voting patterns. Ruralness is just one more, and it intersects with a few other factors that predicted Trump support: rural Americans are more likely to be white and less likely to have college degrees than people in urban areas, and both whiteness and lower levels of college education are characteristics connected to voting for Trump.
"There's this sense that people in those communities are not getting their fair share compared to people in the cities," as Katherine Cramer, a political science professor at the University of Wisconsin, told NPR in August. "They feel like their communities are dying, and they perceive that all that stuff — the young people, the money, the livelihood — is going somewhere, and it's going to the cities," she said."
And this data was out there well before the election. Clinton's team ignored it and banked on the women's vote in the suburbs to bring home the vote. It failed. www.npr.org/2016/11/14/501737150/rural-voters-played-a-big-part-in-helping-trump-defeat-clintonSo your position is that they should run a 75-year-old white guy with the same exact positions and similar experience (Senator, Obama administration) as the 70 year old white woman who lost. Your charge was that Democrats aren't offering something to someone in a trailer park - what policy difference would Joe Biden offer them that Hillary Clinton did not? "A" Joe Biden, doesn't necessarily have to be "the" Joe Biden. Get a candidate that is not from the Beltway or Westchester County and can talk to people as neighbors and not as someone they've hardly ever come across. Maybe someone who actually held a job that didn't involve government work. Jimmy Carter could still serve a second term. So what if he's 95 years old and did a horrible job first time around? It also sounded like a perfect description of Bubba up to the held a job that didn't involve government work part.
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AvantGuardHoya
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
"It was when I found out I could make mistakes that I knew I was on to something."
Posts: 1,481
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Post by AvantGuardHoya on Oct 11, 2018 20:36:47 GMT -5
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tashoya
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 12,395
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Post by tashoya on Oct 11, 2018 21:29:19 GMT -5
I'm from a small town and have family that own/owned small businesses. That way of life is dying rapidly and they're bitter. In the case of my family, they leave it at that. They're just bitter. They don't think past that as to why that way of life is dying in their area and what would be most advantageous to them if they wanted to hold on as long as they could as opposed to making the painful realization that that way of life is, in reality, is not coming back. The changes and adjustments are far more widespread and difficult than just being angry and voting angry as if it were the political climate alone that caused it. They know that part but it's easier to blame "politicians" than it is to blame oneself for not seeing the writing on the wall a decade ago. The continuing decline isn't surprising. It was completely foreseeable. That doesn't make the change easy. The easiest path to change, in the eyes of those I know, is higher education which, as we've all seen, is becoming more and more unattainable for most. And those costs went way up during the past 25 years but there's recency bias too. Now that things are REALLY bad in many places, the last resort (education) is the only real option and it's not remotely affordable. That, IMO, is a small part of it.
There's also a significant generational bias among the older people I know. They think that kids these days (read anyone younger than them) have it way too easy and are far too entitled. They themselves didn't get free healthcare or subsidized education so why should those younger than them get those things? Meanwhile, those are the exact things that would be incredibly helpful to many of those families but, because they had to "work for everything they got" and "never had anything handed to them," no one else should either. Forget pointing out that housing and cars and insurance were attainable for most that worked a full-time job. I've tried pointing out those objective facts but the older set doesn't seem to give a rip because it weakens their "we had it harder" narrative.
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SSHoya
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
"Forget it Jake, it's Chinatown."
Posts: 18,648
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Post by SSHoya on Oct 12, 2018 5:25:24 GMT -5
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2018 10:43:46 GMT -5
The Civility Police really are something else.... Background: The NYGOP invites Gavin Mccinnis leader of the Proud boys to speak at their Manhattan headquarters. Here's their writeup on him on their website: Here he is standing up for Western Values Ha... funny guy ![:|](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/plain.png) Here's the Proud Boys dishing out a strong dose of civility and Western Values to some randoms on the streets of NYC... How does Fox and the MAGA media cover it.. The cherry on top is the fact that the guy wielding the sword for the "left wing mob?" is Gavin Mccinnis. In a way that's kind of perfect...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2018 14:19:01 GMT -5
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2018 16:01:24 GMT -5
These things work if your supporters are both dumb and racist.
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SSHoya
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
"Forget it Jake, it's Chinatown."
Posts: 18,648
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Post by SSHoya on Oct 16, 2018 6:41:01 GMT -5
The Trump GOP base, racist. The problem runs deeper still. Since the 2004 publication of Samuel P. Huntington’s Who Are We?—which argued that America’s “Anglo-Protestant” identity and culture are threatened by large-scale Hispanic immigration—there have been calls on the mainstream right to define America’s national identity in racial, ethnic, or religious terms, whether as white, European, or Judeo-Christian. According to a 2016 survey commissioned by the bipartisan Democracy Fund, 30 percent of Trump voters think European ancestry is “important” to “being American”; 56 percent of Republicans and a full 63 percent of Trump supporters said the same of being Christian. This trend runs counter to the Constitution’s foundational ideal: an America where citizens are citizens, regardless of race or religion; an America whose national identity belongs to no one tribe. www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2018/10/the-threat-of-tribalism/568342/
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2018 10:24:16 GMT -5
"Horseface"
Great guys all around...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2018 14:01:08 GMT -5
"Horseface" Great guys all around... What's the latest on Melania's anti-cyberbullying initiative? Anyone hear anything lately? #bebest
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2018 16:08:10 GMT -5
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2018 18:48:47 GMT -5
The "Party of Family Values" really seems to love porn stars and prostitutes.
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EasyEd
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 7,272
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Post by EasyEd on Oct 16, 2018 19:08:01 GMT -5
I'm from a small town and have family that own/owned small businesses. That way of life is dying rapidly and they're bitter. In the case of my family, they leave it at that. They're just bitter. They don't think past that as to why that way of life is dying in their area and what would be most advantageous to them if they wanted to hold on as long as they could as opposed to making the painful realization that that way of life is, in reality, is not coming back. The changes and adjustments are far more widespread and difficult than just being angry and voting angry as if it were the political climate alone that caused it. They know that part but it's easier to blame "politicians" than it is to blame oneself for not seeing the writing on the wall a decade ago. The continuing decline isn't surprising. It was completely foreseeable. That doesn't make the change easy. The easiest path to change, in the eyes of those I know, is higher education which, as we've all seen, is becoming more and more unattainable for most. And those costs went way up during the past 25 years but there's recency bias too. Now that things are REALLY bad in many places, the last resort (education) is the only real option and it's not remotely affordable. That, IMO, is a small part of it. There's also a significant generational bias among the older people I know. They think that kids these days (read anyone younger than them) have it way too easy and are far too entitled. They themselves didn't get free healthcare or subsidized education so why should those younger than them get those things? Meanwhile, those are the exact things that would be incredibly helpful to many of those families but, because they had to "work for everything they got" and "never had anything handed to them," no one else should either. Forget pointing out that housing and cars and insurance were attainable for most that worked a full-time job. I've tried pointing out those objective facts but the older set doesn't seem to give a rip because it weakens their "we had it harder" narrative. How condescending can you get? Those old folks don't know nothin'. If they would just listen to me.... Maybe it is time to listen to those old fogies, I mean really listen rather than listening with an eye to instructing them.
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hoya9797
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
![*](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/stars/star_yellow.png)
Posts: 4,210
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Post by hoya9797 on Oct 16, 2018 20:58:37 GMT -5
Trump won the old vote (65 and up) by a healthy 9 points. So, old people need to shut the Edited up and go away. You had your chance and you are ruining the world. I can’t imagine why you think you’ve earned the right for anyone to listen to you.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Oct 17, 2018 5:33:21 GMT -5
Lol...
A regular on Fox News, the Civility Police invited this man to speak at the Metropolitan Republican Club in Manhattan. You might be shocked t find out that even though Hannitty has had him on his show 24 times he claims he doesn't know about the "Proud Boys" "Gang" (his words) that he runs ...
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tashoya
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 12,395
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Post by tashoya on Oct 17, 2018 7:15:56 GMT -5
I'm from a small town and have family that own/owned small businesses. That way of life is dying rapidly and they're bitter. In the case of my family, they leave it at that. They're just bitter. They don't think past that as to why that way of life is dying in their area and what would be most advantageous to them if they wanted to hold on as long as they could as opposed to making the painful realization that that way of life is, in reality, is not coming back. The changes and adjustments are far more widespread and difficult than just being angry and voting angry as if it were the political climate alone that caused it. They know that part but it's easier to blame "politicians" than it is to blame oneself for not seeing the writing on the wall a decade ago. The continuing decline isn't surprising. It was completely foreseeable. That doesn't make the change easy. The easiest path to change, in the eyes of those I know, is higher education which, as we've all seen, is becoming more and more unattainable for most. And those costs went way up during the past 25 years but there's recency bias too. Now that things are REALLY bad in many places, the last resort (education) is the only real option and it's not remotely affordable. That, IMO, is a small part of it. There's also a significant generational bias among the older people I know. They think that kids these days (read anyone younger than them) have it way too easy and are far too entitled. They themselves didn't get free healthcare or subsidized education so why should those younger than them get those things? Meanwhile, those are the exact things that would be incredibly helpful to many of those families but, because they had to "work for everything they got" and "never had anything handed to them," no one else should either. Forget pointing out that housing and cars and insurance were attainable for most that worked a full-time job. I've tried pointing out those objective facts but the older set doesn't seem to give a rip because it weakens their "we had it harder" narrative. How condescending can you get? Those old folks don't know nothin'. If they would just listen to me.... Maybe it is time to listen to those old fogies, I mean really listen rather than listening with an eye to instructing them. When one refuses to accept objective financial realities even when personally experiencing them, I don't care how old one is. Wrong is wrong. Maybe some older folks should listen to some younger folks rather than espousing their long lives as evidence of a better informed opinion.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Oct 17, 2018 7:43:23 GMT -5
How condescending can you get? Those old folks don't know nothin'. If they would just listen to me.... Maybe it is time to listen to those old fogies, I mean really listen rather than listening with an eye to instructing them. When one refuses to accept objective financial realities even when personally experiencing them, I don't care how old one is. Wrong is wrong. Maybe some older folks should listen to some younger folks rather than espousing their long lives as evidence of a better informed opinion. This doesn't even have to be a young/old issue. There are young people who are backward-looking just as much as there are older people who are forward-thinking. The economic realities are what they are. And - to tashoya's point - at some point, we as a society need to figure out how to address them. There's a school of thought that we should return to some moment in the past. When factories and coal mines allowed us to build communities in places that otherwise might be barren. And people could live good lives in those communities and raise families there. That time is gone. UNLESS we are willing to do things like subsidize those industries, pay higher wages, and accept higher prices for goods. Because that's how global capitalism works. We can pine for that time and assign blame as to why we can't get back there. Or we can adapt as a society. Instead of trying to train people to participate in the economy of the past, we need to prepare for the economy of the future (and - frankly - the present). Instead of trying to figure out how to employ people in coal mines, let's figure out how to train people in data science. But the backwards-lookers have always won out. The same people who criticized the Obama administration favored the renewable energy industry have no problem with Trump favoring fossil fuels.
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EasyEd
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 7,272
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Post by EasyEd on Oct 17, 2018 9:08:51 GMT -5
How condescending can you get? Those old folks don't know nothin'. If they would just listen to me.... Maybe it is time to listen to those old fogies, I mean really listen rather than listening with an eye to instructing them. When one refuses to accept objective financial realities even when personally experiencing them, I don't care how old one is. Wrong is wrong. Maybe some older folks should listen to some younger folks rather than espousing their long lives as evidence of a better informed opinion. Two comments. First, climate change backers have promised to put the coal industry out of business in this country. Lots of lost jobs. Yet, at the same time there are about 1,600 new coal-fired plants worldwide either planned or under construction at this time. China gets about 70% of its power from coal. But the elites in this country have decided to take away your jobs while the rest of the world is busy creating many, many new coal jobs? Second, everybody, both Repubs and Dems, talk of retraining workers so they can compete. What and how do you train a 55 year old farm worker to move to a new job? In a new location? Or a 50 year old steel worker? Retraining is something that sounds good on paper but, in reality, it is very difficult. Of course, you know best. If only those stupid middle aged people would move to Minneapolis from Alabama, we will hand them an iPad and tell them to start computer training. Then we will try to find an employer willing to hire a 55 year old with no applicable experience. Don't mean to ridicule, but "it ain't as easy as it sounds".
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