DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on Oct 10, 2018 15:16:37 GMT -5
Former Republican Max Boot no longer in denial and recognizes the GOP for what it is and always has been: Like a lot of pontificating inside the Beltway, this bears little resemblance in the rest of the country. This is low tide when it comes to capital-c conservative principles in the party but I heartily dispute the claim that all Republican voters believe in the superiority of the white race or mass imprisonments of non-white citizens. Much of the 40% core of Republicans is, to a large extent, the core basis the Democratic party left behind--rural, high school educated, underemployed--in short, unfit for the coastal party. Flying the rainbow flag and arguing for higher wages for baristas at Starbucks does little if you're sitting in a trailer park in Youngstown. The political parties have become Town Mouse and Country Mouse. Once the party of farmers and labor, the Democrats now represent the well-to-do and the culturally correct. Once the party of the board rooms and New England, the Republicans play the same notes to its audience with a steady twang.
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SSHoya
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Post by SSHoya on Oct 10, 2018 15:25:09 GMT -5
Former Republican Max Boot no longer in denial and recognizes the GOP for what it is and always has been: Like a lot of pontificating inside the Beltway, this bears little resemblance in the rest of the country. This is low tide when it comes to capital-c conservative principles in the party but I heartily dispute the claim that all Republican voters believe in the superiority of the white race or mass imprisonments of non-white citizens. Much of the 40% core of Republicans is, to a large extent, the core basis the Democratic party left behind--rural, high school educated, underemployed--in short, unfit for the coastal party. Flying the rainbow flag and arguing for higher wages for baristas at Starbucks does little if you're sitting in a trailer park in Youngstown. The political parties have become Town Mouse and Country Mouse. Once the party of farmers and labor, the Democrats now represent the well-to-do and the culturally correct. Once the party of the board rooms and New England, the Republicans play the same notes to its audience with a steady twang. Boot doesn't talk about "all Republican voters." I refer you back to the modern roots of today's GOP which I had linked previously. As I have said, "not all Republicans are racists but all racists seem to be drawn to the Republican Party." Why is that? Why would anyone wish to be associated with the GOP as it is currently constituted? I used to attend an inside-the-Beltway regular Happy Hour with Bush 43 appointees at the Old Ebbitt Grill and was somewhat the token non-GOPer (I've been independent and Dem registered but never GOP). All, except for one, have abandoned their vocal support of their party. www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2018/10/05/conservatives-self-delusion-race/?utm_term=.1ab508ee7ee6
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DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on Oct 10, 2018 15:34:02 GMT -5
[Why would anyone wish to be associated with the GOP as it is currently constituted? I used to attend an inside-the-Beltway regular Happy Hour with Bush 43 appointees at the Old Ebbitt Grill and was somewhat the token non-GOPer (I've been independent and Dem registered but never GOP). All, except for one, have abandoned their vocal support of their party. Where can they go? They are certainly not welcome in the Democratic party.
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SSHoya
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Post by SSHoya on Oct 10, 2018 15:45:36 GMT -5
[Why would anyone wish to be associated with the GOP as it is currently constituted? I used to attend an inside-the-Beltway regular Happy Hour with Bush 43 appointees at the Old Ebbitt Grill and was somewhat the token non-GOPer (I've been independent and Dem registered but never GOP). All, except for one, have abandoned their vocal support of their party. Where can they go? They are certainly not welcome in the Democratic party. Actually, I may agree with you on that if the Dems become the crazies of the left which they haven't -- yet. Third parties have never been viable options. The Dems haven't figured out their own socialist/centrist divide but their Congressional midterm candidates have been of both stripes -- some have won, some have lost in the primaries. On the GOP side, virtually everyone wishes to be a mini-Trump (or have dropped out) and have adopted the worst beliefs (including his racist, misogynistic and xenophobic beliefs) of the most unqualified and corrupt leader of any political party in American history. Some have won, some have lost but it seems they all want to be mini-Trump. All the former GOPers have become independents not Dems, that's for sure. That's where they register.
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hoyarooter
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Post by hoyarooter on Oct 10, 2018 19:20:49 GMT -5
Former Republican Max Boot no longer in denial and recognizes the GOP for what it is and always has been: Upon closer examination, it’s obvious that the history of modern conservative is permeated with racism, extremism, conspiracy-mongering, isolationism and know-nothingism. I disagree with progressives who argue that these disfigurations define the totality of conservatism; conservatives have also espoused high-minded principles that I still believe in, and the bigotry on the right appeared to be ameliorating in recent decades. But there has always been a dark underside to conservatism that I chose for most of my life to ignore. It’s amazing how little you can see when your eyes are closed! In 1964, the GOP ceased to be the party of Lincoln and became the party of Southern whites. As I now look back with the clarity of hindsight, I am convinced that coded racial appeals had at least as much, if not more, to do with the electoral success of the modern Republican Party than all of the domestic and foreign policy proposals crafted by well-intentioned analysts like me. This is what liberals have been saying for decades. I never believed them. Now I do, because Trump won by making the racist appeal, hitherto relatively subtle, obvious even to someone such as me who used to be in denial. The Republican Party will now be defined by Trump’s dark, divisive vision, with his depiction of Democrats as America-hating, criminal-coddling traitors, his vilification of the press as the “enemy of the people,” and his ugly invective against Mexicans and Muslims. The extremism that many Republicans of goodwill had been trying to push to the fringe of their party is now its governing ideology. www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-partisan/wp/2018/10/08/the-dark-side-of-american-conservatism-has-taken-over/?utm_term=.6e000007925eMax Boot is a reasonably intelligent guy. I have to say, though, I was 17 years old (and on my way to Georgetown) when Nixon employed his Southern Strategy, and I felt that it had racist underpinnings then. If I could see that at 17, where has Max Boot been? I won't quarrel with the basic tenets of conservatism. I even agree with some of them. In any case, it doesn't excuse basing at least parts of your campaign on race-baiting and fearmongering.
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DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on Oct 10, 2018 19:41:47 GMT -5
Max Boot is a reasonably intelligent guy. I have to say, though, I was 17 years old (and on my way to Georgetown) when Nixon employed his Southern Strategy, and I felt that it had racist underpinnings then. At its core, the Southern strategy was about electoral politics. If Wallace had taken NC, SC, and Florida, he would have thrown the election into the House, where the Democrats would be in the hugely unpopular position of selecting Humphrey with just 13 states and just 191 electoral votes. Humphrey won just three states west of the Mississippi: Minnesota, Washington, and the Democratic stronghold that was Texas.
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Elvado
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Post by Elvado on Oct 10, 2018 19:50:40 GMT -5
Like a lot of pontificating inside the Beltway, this bears little resemblance in the rest of the country. This is low tide when it comes to capital-c conservative principles in the party but I heartily dispute the claim that all Republican voters believe in the superiority of the white race or mass imprisonments of non-white citizens. Much of the 40% core of Republicans is, to a large extent, the core basis the Democratic party left behind--rural, high school educated, underemployed--in short, unfit for the coastal party. Flying the rainbow flag and arguing for higher wages for baristas at Starbucks does little if you're sitting in a trailer park in Youngstown. The political parties have become Town Mouse and Country Mouse. Once the party of farmers and labor, the Democrats now represent the well-to-do and the culturally correct. Once the party of the board rooms and New England, the Republicans play the same notes to its audience with a steady twang. Boot doesn't talk about "all Republican voters." I refer you back to the modern roots of today's GOP which I had linked previously. As I have said, "not all Republicans are racists but all racists seem to be drawn to the Republican Party." Why is that? Why would anyone wish to be associated with the GOP as it is currently constituted? I used to attend an inside-the-Beltway regular Happy Hour with Bush 43 appointees at the Old Ebbitt Grill and was somewhat the token non-GOPer (I've been independent and Dem registered but never GOP). All, except for one, have abandoned their vocal support of their party. www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2018/10/05/conservatives-self-delusion-race/?utm_term=.1ab508ee7ee6There are so many good pints you make here and then destroy with “ all racists seem to be drawn to the Republican Party”. That statement is just ridiculous when the Democrat Party houses the likes of Al Sharpton, among others. Unless you meant all “white racists”.
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tashoya
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Post by tashoya on Oct 10, 2018 22:06:23 GMT -5
Boot doesn't talk about "all Republican voters." I refer you back to the modern roots of today's GOP which I had linked previously. As I have said, "not all Republicans are racists but all racists seem to be drawn to the Republican Party." Why is that? Why would anyone wish to be associated with the GOP as it is currently constituted? I used to attend an inside-the-Beltway regular Happy Hour with Bush 43 appointees at the Old Ebbitt Grill and was somewhat the token non-GOPer (I've been independent and Dem registered but never GOP). All, except for one, have abandoned their vocal support of their party. www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2018/10/05/conservatives-self-delusion-race/?utm_term=.1ab508ee7ee6There are so many good pints you make here and then destroy with “ all racists seem to be drawn to the Republican Party”. That statement is just ridiculous when the Democrat Party houses the likes of Al Sharpton, among others. Unless you meant all “white racists”. Just as "all" was the wrong word, "destroy" was too. The difference being that Sharpton isn't the standard bearer for the party of which he professes to be a part. The Republican party is stoking racist agendas and using racist rhetoric to increase their popularity and it's working. There aren't Democrats stoking racism and seeing similar results.
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SSHoya
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Post by SSHoya on Oct 11, 2018 5:31:25 GMT -5
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2018 5:44:13 GMT -5
Former Republican Max Boot no longer in denial and recognizes the GOP for what it is and always has been: Like a lot of pontificating inside the Beltway, this bears little resemblance in the rest of the country. This is low tide when it comes to capital-c conservative principles in the party but I heartily dispute the claim that all Republican voters believe in the superiority of the white race or mass imprisonments of non-white citizens. Much of the 40% core of Republicans is, to a large extent, the core basis the Democratic party left behind--rural, high school educated, underemployed--in short, unfit for the coastal party. Flying the rainbow flag and arguing for higher wages for baristas at Starbucks does little if you're sitting in a trailer park in Youngstown. Why do Republicans always make these arguments as if the “coastal elites” are the only ones who are in a bubble? Do you think that people in big cities are all Scrooge McDuck? Do you think that people in big cities on the coasts don’t struggle? All the people in the trailer parks in Youngstown who yearn for the days of booming auto factories and coal mines (which are never coming back, by the way) and who want to MAGA by going backwards 50 years? That stuff does little for you if you’re a gay barista trying to make ends meet in New York. If the notion of trying to build a society where all people are welcome and where all people should be able to earn a living wage “does little” for Youngstown, maybe Youngstown needs to re-examine its values.
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Post by aleutianhoya on Oct 11, 2018 6:47:46 GMT -5
Even more to the point: It's hard to be considered an "elite" when you're such a significant portion of the population. There's 325 million people in the US and well over 100 million of those people live in major coastal metropolitan areas. It hardly takes a math major to know that's a bit more than the "1%." And that's just the major coastal cities.
If you want to include population in all cities (regardless of location), it's north of 75%. Needless to say, they aren't all rich. And at the other end of the spectrum, most of them have jobs.
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SSHoya
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Post by SSHoya on Oct 11, 2018 7:05:19 GMT -5
Even more to the point: It's hard to be considered an "elite" when you're such a significant portion of the population. There's 325 million people in the US and well over 100 million of those people live in major coastal metropolitan areas. It hardly takes a math major to know that's a bit more than the "1%." And that's just the major coastal cities. If you want to include population in all cities (regardless of location), it's north of 75%. Needless to say, they aren't all rich. And at the other end of the spectrum, most of them have jobs. Using "elite" as a descriptor is simply another way to subtly (or perhaps not so subtly) wear the mantle of alleged victimhood, i.e., "We are the true Americans." You are the "other". It is buying into the Trumpean world view -- divisive and hateful. It buys into the politics of grievance. As an adjective, the word “elite” still conveys something positive, even aspirational: elite athlete, elite model, elite travel services. But as a noun, embodied by actual living people, it has become one of the nastiest epithets in American politics. “Elites have taken all the upside for themselves and pushed the downside to the working- and middle-class Americans,” complains Trump’s adviser Steve Bannon (of Harvard, Goldman Sachs and Hollywood). In this formulation, elites are a destructive, condescending collective, plotting against the beleaguered masses outside their ranks. www.nytimes.com/2017/01/03/magazine/how-elites-became-one-of-the-nastiest-epithets-in-american-politics.html
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2018 8:03:21 GMT -5
If the President thinks exploiting culture wars is the way to get his people to the polls, doesn't that say a lot about how HE views his base?
Majority of these people probably do feel left behind and are searching for answers. Well a typical answer coming from the President is- it's the Mexicans. They're stealing your jobs, their government is cheating you (Nafta). These immigrants are stealing your money, taking your jobs, and that's why you don't have anything is kind of his core message.
It's hard to argue Trump isn't racist, or at minimum is happy exploiting racial division for his personal benefit. Idk how much of Trump's base is racist, I'd like to think none of it is, but HE thinks racism is what moves them. He may be right, he may be wrong, but for many of us the fact that Trump being an overt racist wasn't disqualifying for Republicans makes you wonder what difference it makes...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2018 8:21:10 GMT -5
Pretty amazing talent Republicans have at being both the victim and the victor..
"There are some people working in Trump administration she does not trust. "
That's pretty unusual...
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Oct 11, 2018 9:46:05 GMT -5
[Why would anyone wish to be associated with the GOP as it is currently constituted? I used to attend an inside-the-Beltway regular Happy Hour with Bush 43 appointees at the Old Ebbitt Grill and was somewhat the token non-GOPer (I've been independent and Dem registered but never GOP). All, except for one, have abandoned their vocal support of their party. Where can they go? They are certainly not welcome in the Democratic party. Why not? I see what you did with your mention of baristas but progressives/dems supported fast food workers when they protested for higher wages rght? Really, what’s the difference between fast food workers and other low skill, low wage jobs? What’s the difference between living in the projects or a trailer park?
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TC
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Post by TC on Oct 11, 2018 11:32:05 GMT -5
Former Republican Max Boot no longer in denial and recognizes the GOP for what it is and always has been: Like a lot of pontificating inside the Beltway, this bears little resemblance in the rest of the country. This is low tide when it comes to capital-c conservative principles in the party but I heartily dispute the claim that all Republican voters believe in the superiority of the white race or mass imprisonments of non-white citizens. Much of the 40% core of Republicans is, to a large extent, the core basis the Democratic party left behind--rural, high school educated, underemployed--in short, unfit for the coastal party. Flying the rainbow flag and arguing for higher wages for baristas at Starbucks does little if you're sitting in a trailer park in Youngstown. The political parties have become Town Mouse and Country Mouse. Once the party of farmers and labor, the Democrats now represent the well-to-do and the culturally correct. Once the party of the board rooms and New England, the Republicans play the same notes to its audience with a steady twang. Just so I've got this post right : - Republican voters don't believe in white supremacy (though in practice that's basically what their party is enacting), and we shouldn't engage in that sort of hyperbole or stereotype - we should try to understand them better - Democrats are all gay coffee sipping elites with monocles on that offer nothing to poor people We're supposed to absolve Republican voters from what they are voting for and shouldn't stereotype them, but we should throw out the weirdest stereotypes on Democrats. Democrats won income < $50,000 (source: ropercenter.cornell.edu/polls/us-elections/how-groups-voted/groups-voted-2016/), and have a strong platform there (universal health care, CHIP, minimum wage). Republicans constantly are trying to destroy every one of those benefits. Democrats are losing $50k < X < $100k on culture war bull.
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DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on Oct 11, 2018 12:46:19 GMT -5
One graphic is illustrative why the Democrats lost the election. The party ignored the working class outside the major cities. That is why a Joe Biden in 2020 would be a real problem for Trump in working class districts, the kind of places which sneered at Hillary Clinton as the symbol of a party of privilege (never mind the sheer incongruity of a billionaire from Manhattan running as a populist). ![](https://amp.businessinsider.com/images/58250662691e888b588b5b08-960-671.png)
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Oct 11, 2018 13:28:11 GMT -5
One graphic is illustrative why the Democrats lost the election. The party ignored the working class outside the major cities. That is why a Joe Biden in 2020 would be a real problem for Trump in working class districts, the kind of places which sneered at Hillary Clinton as the symbol of a party of privilege (never mind the sheer incongruity of a billionaire from Manhattan running as a populist). ![](https://amp.businessinsider.com/images/58250662691e888b588b5b08-960-671.png) What's the difference between working-class people in cities and rural areas DFW? I've read about this disconnect Clinton had from suburban & rural folks but I don't get why the message to them has to be so much different..
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DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on Oct 11, 2018 14:07:21 GMT -5
What's the difference between working-class people in cities and rural areas DFW? I've read about this disconnect Clinton had from suburban & rural folks but I don't get why the message to them has to be so much different.. Lots of hypotheses but this one is as good as any: "It's impossible to tell exactly what is widening this rural-urban gap. After all, a lot of interconnected demographic factors are related to voting patterns. Ruralness is just one more, and it intersects with a few other factors that predicted Trump support: rural Americans are more likely to be white and less likely to have college degrees than people in urban areas, and both whiteness and lower levels of college education are characteristics connected to voting for Trump.
"There's this sense that people in those communities are not getting their fair share compared to people in the cities," as Katherine Cramer, a political science professor at the University of Wisconsin, told NPR in August. "They feel like their communities are dying, and they perceive that all that stuff — the young people, the money, the livelihood — is going somewhere, and it's going to the cities," she said."
And this data was out there well before the election. Clinton's team ignored it and banked on the women's vote in the suburbs to bring home the vote. It failed. www.npr.org/2016/11/14/501737150/rural-voters-played-a-big-part-in-helping-trump-defeat-clintonSo your position is that they should run a 75-year-old white guy with the same exact positions and similar experience (Senator, Obama administration) as the 70 year old white woman who lost. Your charge was that Democrats aren't offering something to someone in a trailer park - what policy difference would Joe Biden offer them that Hillary Clinton did not? "A" Joe Biden, doesn't necessarily have to be "the" Joe Biden. Get a candidate that is not from the Beltway or Westchester County and can talk to people as neighbors and not as someone they've hardly ever come across. Maybe someone who actually held a job that didn't involve government work.
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TC
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Post by TC on Oct 11, 2018 14:07:30 GMT -5
One graphic is illustrative why the Democrats lost the election. The party ignored the working class outside the major cities. That is why a Joe Biden in 2020 would be a real problem for Trump in working class districts, the kind of places which sneered at Hillary Clinton as the symbol of a party of privilege (never mind the sheer incongruity of a billionaire from Manhattan running as a populist). So your position is that they should run a 75-year-old white guy with the same exact positions and similar experience (Senator, Obama administration) as the 70 year old white woman who lost. Your charge was that Democrats aren't offering something to someone in a trailer park - what policy difference would Joe Biden offer them that Hillary Clinton did not?
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