Mass Shootings

[Massholya]

May 28, 2022 6:56:43 GMT -5 DanMcQ said:

Yes. If people were really serious about “backing the blue” getting as many guns off the street as we can would be the best way to make their jobs safer.

[bluegray79]

It may bring us some comfort to cast blame where it is deserved -- and there is plenty to go around. Let's do that and get it out of our systems. But, if nothing else has become clear to me at this moment, I do know how we can wait for Congress or the White House or our state legislatures or our city/town governments to address this problem -- we have been waiting for too long and here we are. After Sandy Hook, it was clear that little children shot dead in their classrooms did little to move the needle on this horror. And, as I watch public officials respond to the 2 most recent shootings in Buffalo and Uvalde, I see little that makes me think anything substantive will happen this time either. The cycle continues and we grow numb and desensitized and exhausted and sad until the next shooting, which we know will be sooner than we expect, and may strike close to home and we'll wonder how that could happen here, etc., etc. We can finger point, blame, demean, whatever -- it's not particularly helpful and it doesn't move us any closer to having the long-overdue conversations that need to happen, to getting clear, informed, determined and real in ways that have not happened despite the obscene number of shootings not just in the past 30 years but this year alone.

Those wanting little or no change like to point out that this or that solution would not have stopped this from happening. Perhaps, but that has to be where the conversation starts and not where it ends. Let's be clear -- there's a lot to why these shootings happen, so we need a lot of solutions. One cure-all band aid won't do it, so don't accept that from public officials or someone you know who thinks they have the answer.

Let's agree on this:

If your answer to ending mass shootings doesn't address the list below, then keep talking and pushing until it does. Remember -- there is no one magical solution.

Here's the list: feel free to add your own

-- gun availability
-- mental illness
-- school safety
-- gun safety
-- violence/gun culture
-- gun lobby influence/gun laws

Solutions can't just be reactive. We have to work on preventative, proactive measures as well as how law enforcement and communities respond. Therefore, conversations MUST include schools, families, law enforcement, counselors & therapists, experts in education and psychology/sociology that advise on bullying, problem solving, isolation, depression - factors that lead to hopelessness, helplessness, and desperation.

Lastly, we will not change everything all at once, so let's effect change wherever we can, however we can. There's probably a lot more to add here. I hope to hear from you if you can add to this.

p.s. Of course, many good people and groups are already doing amazing work to address these problems. They are important and they help. I just want to be active in a way that can add to their efforts and stop the madness and the devastation of families and communities week after week.

[bluegray79]

Following up with this by Nicholas Kristoff, NYT --

www.nytimes.com/2022/05/25/opinion/texas-shooting-gun-control.html?action=click&module=RelatedLinks&pgtype=Article

Would love to learn more and hear from others with ideas and possible solutions.

[SSHoya]

IMO, eliminating gun culture in America will be no different from the 60+ year effort on tobacco control. It has been by and large successful given the drastic drop in smoking rates.

Many of the same factors that led to continued tobacco use in America apply to the gun culture. Corporate greed, fraudulent advertising and disinformation, lobbyists keeping politicians in their pocket through campaign contributions, etc.

(My perspective is derived from my 4 years suing Big Tobacco in the DOJ's successful civil RICO suit despite all the attempts of the Bush Administration to stymie our efforts).

[hoya73]

May 28, 2022 8:49:58 GMT -5 bluegray79 said:

It may bring us some comfort to cast blame where it is deserved -- and there is plenty to go around. Let's do that and get it out of our systems. But, if nothing else has become clear to me at this moment, I do know how we can wait for Congress or the White House or our state legislatures or our city/town governments to address this problem -- we have been waiting for too long and here we are. After Sandy Hook, it was clear that little children shot dead in their classrooms did little to move the needle on this horror. And, as I watch public officials respond to the 2 most recent shootings in Buffalo and Uvalde, I see little that makes me think anything substantive will happen this time either. The cycle continues and we grow numb and desensitized and exhausted and sad until the next shooting, which we know will be sooner than we expect, and may strike close to home and we'll wonder how that could happen here, etc., etc. We can finger point, blame, demean, whatever -- it's not particularly helpful and it doesn't move us any closer to having the long-overdue conversations that need to happen, to getting clear, informed, determined and real in ways that have not happened despite the obscene number of shootings not just in the past 30 years but this year alone.

Those wanting little or no change like to point out that this or that solution would not have stopped this from happening. Perhaps, but that has to be where the conversation starts and not where it ends. Let's be clear -- there's a lot to why these shootings happen, so we need a lot of solutions. One cure-all band aid won't do it, so don't accept that from public officials or someone you know who thinks they have the answer.

Let's agree on this:

If your answer to ending mass shootings doesn't address the list below, then keep talking and pushing until it does. Remember -- there is no one magical solution.

Here's the list: feel free to add your own

-- gun availability
-- mental illness
-- school safety
-- gun safety
-- violence/gun culture
-- gun lobby influence/gun laws

Solutions can't just be reactive. We have to work on preventative, proactive measures as well as how law enforcement and communities respond. Therefore, conversations MUST include schools, families, law enforcement, counselors & therapists, experts in education and psychology/sociology that advise on bullying, problem solving, isolation, depression - factors that lead to hopelessness, helplessness, and desperation.

Lastly, we will not change everything all at once, so let's effect change wherever we can, however we can. There's probably a lot more to add here. I hope to hear from you if you can add to this.

p.s. Of course, many good people and groups are already doing amazing work to address these problems. They are important and they help. I just want to be active in a way that can add to their efforts and stop the madness and the devastation of families and communities week after week.

The sine qua non, for national level action, is to elect healthy Democratic majorities, in both houses of Congress, in order to overcome the 100% obstruction of the GOP, plus the inevitable Manchins. Working on that this Fall.

[hoya73]

This should be on endless loop on every media in the country:

www.bing.com/videos/search?q=YouTube+thoughts+and+prayers+strive-by+truckers&view=detail&mid=04B3C35FC985EFD7BC6A04B3C35FC985EFD7BC6A&FORM=VIRE

[bluegray79]

May 28, 2022 10:07:22 GMT -5 hoya73 said:

May 28, 2022 8:49:58 GMT -5 bluegray79 said:

It may bring us some comfort to cast blame where it is deserved -- and there is plenty to go around. Let's do that and get it out of our systems. But, if nothing else has become clear to me at this moment, I do not know how we can wait for Congress or the White House or our state legislatures or our city/town governments to address this problem -- we have been waiting for too long and here we are. After Sandy Hook, it was clear that little children shot dead in their classrooms did little to move the needle on this horror. And, as I watch public officials respond to the 2 most recent shootings in Buffalo and Uvalde, I see little that makes me think anything substantive will happen this time either. The cycle continues and we grow numb and desensitized and exhausted and sad until the next shooting, which we know will be sooner than we expect, and may strike close to home and we'll wonder how that could happen here, etc., etc. We can finger point, blame, demean, whatever -- it's not particularly helpful and it doesn't move us any closer to having the long-overdue conversations that need to happen, to getting clear, informed, determined and real in ways that have not happened despite the obscene number of shootings not just in the past 30 years but this year alone.

Those wanting little or no change like to point out that this or that solution would not have stopped this from happening. Perhaps, but that has to be where the conversation starts and not where it ends. Let's be clear -- there's a lot to why these shootings happen, so we need a lot of solutions. One cure-all band aid won't do it, so don't accept that from public officials or someone you know who thinks they have the answer.

Let's agree on this:

If your answer to ending mass shootings doesn't address the list below, then keep talking and pushing until it does. Remember -- there is no one magical solution.

Here's the list: feel free to add your own

-- gun availability
-- mental illness
-- school safety
-- gun safety
-- violence/gun culture
-- gun lobby influence/gun laws

Solutions can't just be reactive. We have to work on preventative, proactive measures as well as how law enforcement and communities respond. Therefore, conversations MUST include schools, families, law enforcement, counselors & therapists, experts in education and psychology/sociology that advise on bullying, problem solving, isolation, depression - factors that lead to hopelessness, helplessness, and desperation.

Lastly, we will not change everything all at once, so let's effect change wherever we can, however we can. There's probably a lot more to add here. I hope to hear from you if you can add to this.

p.s. Of course, many good people and groups are already doing amazing work to address these problems. They are important and they help. I just want to be active in a way that can add to their efforts and stop the madness and the devastation of families and communities week after week.

The sine qua non, for national level action, is to elect healthy Democratic majorities, in both houses of Congress, in order to overcome the 100% obstruction of the GOP, plus the inevitable Manchins. Working on that this Fall.

[bluegray79]

from Heather Cox Richardson's excellent daily email (you should subscribe), citing a Politico article in reference to the Uvalde shooting:


The events in Uvalde have dealt a devastating blow to the theory that a good guy with a gun will prevent gun violence.

A Politico/Morning Consult poll out Wednesday showed “huge support” for gun regulations. It showed that 88% of voters strongly or somewhat support background checks on all gun sales, while only 8% strongly or somewhat oppose such checks. That’s a net approval of +80.

Preventing gun sales to people who have been reported to police as dangerous by a mental health provider is supported by 84% of voters while only 9% oppose it, a net approval of +75.

Seventy-seven percent of voters support requiring guns to be stored in a safe storage unit, while only 15% oppose such a requirement, a net approval of +62.

A national database for gun sales gets 75% approval and 18% disapproval, a net approval rate of +57.

Banning assault style weapons like the AR-15 has an approval rate of 67% of voters while only 25% disapprove. That’s a net approval of +42.

And fifty-four percent of voters approve of arming teachers with concealed weapons, while only 34% oppose it, a net approval of +20.

And yet, their opposition to regulation and their embrace of cowboy individualism means Republicans have made it clear they will not entertain any measures to regulate gun ownership, except perhaps the last one, which teachers, parents, students, and the two largest teachers’ unions all overwhelmingly oppose.

This has to be a midterm election issue front and center. Given the regularity of these events, we can be sure it won't get lost in too many upcoming news cycles. What can we do to make it an issue that sways votes in these November elections?

[SSHoya]

Yeah, America wants this corrupt POS to be Senate Majority Leader. How does this fit into your purported "pro-life" agenda, HoyaTalk "Republicans"??

The Standard Gravure massacre provided an early glimpse of how McConnell — now the Republican Senate minority leader — would handle mass shootings and their aftermath over the next three decades, consistently working to delay, obstruct or prevent most major gun control legislation from passing Congress.

“If there’s any one individual in the United States to blame for our inability to put things in place to prevent gun violence, it’s Mitch McConnell,” said Peter Ambler, the executive director of Giffords, a group devoted to fighting gun violence. “McConnell understands he’s hostage to that extreme base that just doesn’t tolerate any departure from any of their views.”

www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/05/28/mcconnell-guns-mass-shootings/

[tashoya]

We can agree on almost nothing as a country. But, this we agreed on. Yet, still nothing gets done. It's unsurprising that people on all sides, seemingly, continue to lose faith in our government. We all agree that children dying in school shootings is a horrific thing. Our representatives' response? Not a damned thing though 90% of us, apparently, want minor and sensible measures taken. Imagine at your job if 90% of the management of the company at which you work wanted you to do something. How long would you last in your job if you didn't get it done? Our reps are, very plainly, insubordinate employees. They should be let go ASAP.

[Elvado]

May 28, 2022 22:27:35 GMT -5 tashoya said:

We can agree on almost nothing as a country. But, this we agreed on. Yet, still nothing gets done. It's unsurprising that people on all sides, seemingly, continue to lose faith in our government. We all agree that children dying in school shootings is a horrific thing. Our representatives' response? Not a damned thing though 90% of us, apparently, want minor and sensible measures taken. Imagine at your job if 90% of the management of the company at which you work wanted you to do something. How long would you last in your job if you didn't get it done? Our reps are, very plainly, insubordinate employees. They should be let go ASAP.

Begs the question of for whom they believe they are working doesn’t it?

My faith in elected officials is virtually non-existent at this point. The prime directive, sadly, is re-election and the accumulation of wealth.

Never lose sight of the fact that our founders, entitled bigots that they may have been, went back to their day jobs.

[DanMcQ]

Gov. Greg Abbott of Texas coldly said of the massacre, the sixth mass shooting in his seven years in office, “it could have been worse.” Donald Trump, who once told me if he were elected president, he would get in his limo and drive down to the National Rifle Association and bargain with it until he could get agreement to some common-sense solutions, spoke to the N.R.A. convention in Houston Friday evening and spouted gun lobby talking points — small price for the tens of millions it spent to get him elected. What a sociopathic jellyfish. It was sacrilege for him to make it seem as though the N.R.A. cared by reading the names of the dead children and teachers, with a bell gonging after each name.

What is wrong with this country? Republicans think they’re showing their toughness by preventing curbs on guns. But it’s a huge American weakness.

America is stuck in a loop on guns — and it’s a fatal one. This country always cherished its frontier image, Gary Cooper in “High Noon,” shooting it out with the bad guys. But now when the bad guys start shooting, lawmakers just shrug.

We’ve become a country of cowards, so terrified of the unholy power of gun worship that no sacrifice of young blood is too great to appease it.

[DanMcQ]

Move along now, nothing to be concerned about here. No patterns.

[SSHoya]

You mean I shouldn't believe anything emanating from the Texas MAGA GOP - a party/cult where mendacity is in its DNA?? I'm shocked!!! Talking about trying to spin your way out of a tragedy. Truly pathetic performance by Abbott and his enablers. Still uncertain why he didn't attend the NRA convention. Apparently he's no Rafael "Cancun" Cruz. . . (Hopefully, the picture of Abbott meeting with Biden may be his Christie-hugging-Obama moment).

www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2022/05/28/uvalde-inaccurate-reports-texas-authorities/

[bluegray79]

May 29, 2022 13:48:40 GMT -5 DanMcQ said:

Move along now, nothing to be concerned about here. No patterns.

Saw that, too.  Just when you thought you were as frustrated, angry, fed up, and saddened as you could get.  Still helps me/us see this issue and possible paths ahead with more clarity and conviction.  Thank you.

[bluegray79]

Message to anyone sitting back unmoved by recent (and not so recent) shootings:

Don't talk to me about the Second Amendment until you can prove to me that America cares more about children than guns.

In the meantime, look real hard for solutions and policies that will make it so that our children can go to school and NEVER have to worry that they aren't safe, that they won't get shot and killed or that their friends and teachers won't be hurt by someone with a gun.

The solutions and policies are there -- you won't have to look too far. And a majority of Americans support them. As soon as you listen first to your heart and soul and not to poisonous nonsense on FaceBook or hate-mongering news or wherever, then we can talk and work together to keep our children safe.

If not, then admit to everyone you know that you value guns and the Second Amendment more than you value little children.

When you care more about our children and your children more than you care about guns, I hope we can talk and work together to begin healing our country.

[bluegray79]

Been working at being as clear and focused as never before about guns in America. Also trying to add my voice, energy, money wherever they will do some good. Would love any ideas about ways to do these 2 things.

It's very clear to me now (again & again) that the powers that be and all the machinations that put them there and keep them there care for guns, profit, and power more than they care about children being murdered. They will again & again offer little more than obscenely sanctimonious thoughts and prayers, and they will not propose solutions that change anything.

They will point at proposals and solutions offered to address gun violence and condemn them as ineffectual or redundant while saying they regret these shooting events with a self-righteousness that enrages me.

We cannot grant our votes to anyone running for public office who isn't falling all over themselves to try to find real solutions to this problem. If they aren't, it is up to us to straight out ask them how could they not be and make it clear they will not receive our vote without evidence that they see this issue with front and center urgency. Rallies, letters to the editor, calls to their offices, asking the hard questions at any public speaking event, and any others you can think of.

Which brings me to my second goal of wanting to do my part. If we put it all on public officials and then sit back and wait, I don't see how we can expect much to change. I mentioned adding my voice, but I would like to know how any of you are involved of trying to make a difference. I give to Sandy Hook Promise when I can but would like to do more. I live in Connecticut, and we are lucky to have state and U.S. reps who are out front on this issue. Not sure what it's like where you are.

[bluegray79]

Just going to keep it coming -- I found this solid on many points.


www.nytimes.com/2022/05/29/opinion/gun-safety-republicans.html

[bluegray79]

from the Intercept - sobering information about the AR-15 and our gun culture


theintercept.com/2022/05/26/ar-15-uvalde-school-shooting-vietnam-war/?utm_medium=email&utm_source=The%20Intercept%20Newsletter

[DanMcQ]