Basketball bribery scandal

[dense]

The FBI report is gonna be far more damning than this Forde article and I think this article is pretty bad.

[BeantownHoya]

Feb 23, 2018 12:53:50 GMT -5 95hoya said:

Yeah, and honestly no one cares about forfeiture of past games. Future penalties are what scares programs. Can't punish schools for players taking money from an agent when they have a foot out the door.

Prior to stepping on campus is a different matter.

This is what matters...will any of these schools be punished going foward? That's all I care about...

[DudeSlade]

Feb 23, 2018 15:16:13 GMT -5 BeantownHoya said:

Feb 23, 2018 12:53:50 GMT -5 95hoya said:

Yeah, and honestly no one cares about forfeiture of past games. Future penalties are what scares programs. Can't punish schools for players taking money from an agent when they have a foot out the door.

Prior to stepping on campus is a different matter.

This is what matters...will any of these schools be punished going foward? That's all I care about...

This is exactly what USC got hammered for in the Reggie Bush case. An agent paid the rent of his parents in his last year of school. USC then got postseason bans and 15 less scholarships per year for 3 years after that. It was as close to the death penalty as any team since SMU and it was all because of agent payment to player. NCAA said at the time that "high profile players require high profile monitoring."

There are only 13 guys in basketball and a far higher coach-to-player ratio. Monitoring should be far easier than in football. I know the NCAA has been obscenely hypocritical on penalties in the past and the USC penalty was probably just vindictiveness, but hard to justify your neutrality if these schools aren't also punished severely.

[professorhoya]

Feb 23, 2018 13:42:30 GMT -5 NCHoya said:

This is all noise until there is some concrete evidence of coach's directing payments or having knowledge of the payments taking place between players and the agent. My guess is most coaches will claim ignorance, and get away with it. The only info we have right now is that an agent was paying players in hopes of them turning into future clients. So much more has to come out for this to truly be game changing, and who knows how long that will take or if it will happen.

That's the Rick Pitino defense.
"I know nothing!"

[calhoya]

Isn't all this as much an indictment of the current system in place as it is of the particular kids and these agents? Reform is so far past due. Fans of college basketball want these one and done elite kids at their school even if the concept of student athlete is completely shredded in the process. Schools want to hold on to their developing talent and quality upper class veterans, despite the fact that the kid might be able to make more money than his family has ever seen by playing in the Spanish or French Leagues--or even going to South American leagues. Coaches cheat, leave and cheat again, while the recruits they promised the parents they would care for are left behind. I know my views about paying players, transfers and other benefits to the players would not be popular with most fans, coaches and athletic directors, and therefore are totally unrealistic in the current environment, but something must be done because this current system just encourages more "creative" cheating by coaches, schools and players and their families. Maybe the FBI can find enough to actually make a difference, but I am not certain what law prohibits a players' family from taking a loan from an agent, even if a violation of the NCAA's rules.

[hoyainla]

Feb 23, 2018 15:41:52 GMT -5 DudeSlade said:

Feb 23, 2018 15:16:13 GMT -5 BeantownHoya said:

This is what matters...will any of these schools be punished going foward? That's all I care about...

This is exactly what USC got hammered for in the Reggie Bush case. An agent paid the rent of his parents in his last year of school. USC then got postseason bans and 15 less scholarships per year for 3 years after that. It was as close to the death penalty as any team since SMU and it was all because of agent payment to player. NCAA said at the time that "high profile players require high profile monitoring."

There are only 13 guys in basketball and a far higher coach-to-player ratio. Monitoring should be far easier than in football. I know the NCAA has been obscenely hypocritical on penalties in the past and the USC penalty was probably just vindictiveness, but hard to justify your neutrality if these schools aren't also punished severely.

The NCAA got their butts handed to them for being too harsh to USC. You have seen much worse scandals since then (Miami) not get hit nearly as bad. I would say based on just agents paying players and especially dinners not to see much from the NCAA. Maybe if it comes out that a player got 50k and was living in a new house with a new car the NCAA could rule negligence. I think all of this comes down to what the FBI finds. Quite frankly all of this is the worst thing that could happen to the NCAA if you ask me.

[SSHoya]

Feb 23, 2018 16:37:35 GMT -5 calhoya said:

Isn't all this as much an indictment of the current system in place as it is of the particular kids and these agents? Reform is so far past due. Fans of college basketball want these one and done elite kids at their school even if the concept of student athlete is completely shredded in the process. Schools want to hold on to their developing talent and quality upper class veterans, despite the fact that the kid might be able to make more money than his family has ever seen by playing in the Spanish or French Leagues--or even going to South American leagues. Coaches cheat, leave and cheat again, while the recruits they promised the parents they would care for are left behind. I know my views about paying players, transfers and other benefits to the players would not be popular with most fans, coaches and athletic directors, and therefore are totally unrealistic in the current environment, but something must be done because this current system just encourages more "creative" cheating by coaches, schools and players and their families. Maybe the FBI can find enough to actually make a difference, but I am not certain what law prohibits a players' family from taking a loan from an agent, even if a violation of the NCAA's rules.

To your point, this is an interesting (but long) read and perhaps true that accepting a "loan" is not against federal law for the families -- but I don't believe any families and/or athletes have been or will be charged, only the coaches/recruiters and sneaker reps. The jurisdictional hook is the fact that the coaches/recruiters are agents for their respective universities which receive federal grant money and student loan money and that the coaches/recruiters defrauded their universities.

mises.org/blog/ncaa-violations-are-now-federal-crimes

[professorhoya]

Feb 23, 2018 17:08:40 GMT -5 SSHoya said:

Feb 23, 2018 16:37:35 GMT -5 calhoya said:

Isn't all this as much an indictment of the current system in place as it is of the particular kids and these agents? Reform is so far past due. Fans of college basketball want these one and done elite kids at their school even if the concept of student athlete is completely shredded in the process. Schools want to hold on to their developing talent and quality upper class veterans, despite the fact that the kid might be able to make more money than his family has ever seen by playing in the Spanish or French Leagues--or even going to South American leagues. Coaches cheat, leave and cheat again, while the recruits they promised the parents they would care for are left behind. I know my views about paying players, transfers and other benefits to the players would not be popular with most fans, coaches and athletic directors, and therefore are totally unrealistic in the current environment, but something must be done because this current system just encourages more "creative" cheating by coaches, schools and players and their families. Maybe the FBI can find enough to actually make a difference, but I am not certain what law prohibits a players' family from taking a loan from an agent, even if a violation of the NCAA's rules.

To your point, this is an interesting (but long) read and perhaps true that accepting a "loan" is not against federal law for the families -- but I don't believe any families and/or athletes have been or will be charged, only the coaches/recruiters and sneaker reps. The jurisdictional hook is the fact that the coaches/recruiters are agents for their respective universities which receive federal grant money and student loan money and that the coaches/recruiters defrauded their universities.

mises.org/blog/ncaa-violations-are-now-federal-crimes

These "loans" are things that only have to be paid if the athlete makes it to the pros. If they don't all the agent has to do is not collect it.

[professorhoya]

I'm sure the FBI is looking at football now and King Football is next. All the bag men in NCAA football are pretty common knowledge.

The collapse in football will be spectacular and give programs like Georgetown an opportunity to move up.

[SSHoya]

Feb 23, 2018 17:26:57 GMT -5 professorhoya said:

Feb 23, 2018 17:08:40 GMT -5 SSHoya said:

To your point, this is an interesting (but long) read and perhaps true that accepting a "loan" is not against federal law for the families -- but I don't believe any families and/or athletes have been or will be charged, only the coaches/recruiters and sneaker reps. The jurisdictional hook is the fact that the coaches/recruiters are agents for their respective universities which receive federal grant money and student loan money and that the coaches/recruiters defrauded their universities.

mises.org/blog/ncaa-violations-are-now-federal-crimes

These "loans" are things that only have to be paid if the athlete makes it to the pros. If they don't all the agent has to do is not collect it.

Then it is a straight out bribe but still not illegal for the family/player to accept under the operative jurisdictional theory of the federal prosecutors, right? And does not affect any case against the coaches/recruiters and conspiracy theory with the sneaker reps.

[hoyainla]

Feb 23, 2018 17:29:41 GMT -5 professorhoya said:

I'm sure the FBI is looking at football now and King Football is next. All the bag men in NCAA football are pretty common knowledge.

The collapse in football will be spectacular and give programs like Georgetown an opportunity to move up.

While there are many more players there is less agent/shoe driven stuff going on in football. When it does happen it is much later in the collegiate process. This has to do with less certainty in football of who will make the pros. In football its more booster (bag men) driven which I believe in the eyes of the FBI is not nearly as bad therefore less of a concern. I could be wrong on that but I guess we will see.

[FrazierFanatic]

Feb 23, 2018 17:31:05 GMT -5 SSHoya said:

Feb 23, 2018 17:26:57 GMT -5 professorhoya said:

These "loans" are things that only have to be paid if the athlete makes it to the pros. If they don't all the agent has to do is not collect it.

Then it is a straight out bribe but still not illegal for the family/player to accept under the operative jurisdictional theory of the federal prosecutors, right? And does not affect any case against the coaches/recruiters and conspiracy theory with the sneaker reps.

Well the family better hope they declared it as income.

[SSHoya]

Feb 23, 2018 17:56:38 GMT -5 FrazierFanatic said:

Feb 23, 2018 17:31:05 GMT -5 SSHoya said:

Then it is a straight out bribe but still not illegal for the family/player to accept under the operative jurisdictional theory of the federal prosecutors, right? And does not affect any case against the coaches/recruiters and conspiracy theory with the sneaker reps.

Well the family better hope they declared it as income.

Good point. I haven't followed the amount of $$ involved to individual families so it may not meet a threshold amount for a Criminal Tax to go after them -- maybe Civil Tax enforcement action and seek payment of the taxes due plus penalties.

[EasyEd]

It is a legal stretch to say that any of this is against federal law.

[bamahoya11]

I also tend to read this news as more of an indictment of the system than anything else. I would prefer a system in which players can get compensated by the university and market their individual likenesses but see the NCAA take more steps to keep these "agents" away from them in college. Kids are flocking to these folks, and I think that's often bad for their long term future.

College athletics has changed. It's not 1950 anymore. Billions of dollars are at stake every season. The kids who contribute so much, including those who sustain injuries that can derail their careers, deserve better than the current system.

[DFW HOYA]

Feb 23, 2018 19:48:08 GMT -5 EasyEd said:

It is a legal stretch to say that any of this is against federal law.

Bribery is against federal law.

[iowa80]

Feb 23, 2018 20:11:18 GMT -5 DFW HOYA said:

Feb 23, 2018 19:48:08 GMT -5 EasyEd said:

It is a legal stretch to say that any of this is against federal law.

Bribery is against federal law.

And a predicate offense under RICO.

[SSHoya]

Feb 23, 2018 20:11:18 GMT -5 DFW HOYA said:

Feb 23, 2018 19:48:08 GMT -5 EasyEd said:

It is a legal stretch to say that any of this is against federal law.

Bribery is against federal law.

This is the bribery statute which is being used to prosecute the coaches/recruiters and shoe reps (under conspiracy 18 USC Section 371). The coaches/recruiters are agents of their universities and their universities receive in excess of $10,000 in any one year period. While some may quarrel with the use of federal resources to prosecute a case such as this, the statute seems relatively clear and not much of a stretch.

18 USC Section 666

(a) Whoever, if the circumstance described in subsection (b) of this section exists—

(1) being an agent of an organization, or of a State, local, or Indian tribal government, or any agency thereof—

(B) corruptly solicits or demands for the benefit of any person, or accepts or agrees to accept, anything of value from any person, intending to be influenced or rewarded in connection with any business, transaction, or series of transactions of such organization, government, or agency involving any thing of value of $5,000 or more; or

(2) corruptly gives, offers, or agrees to give anything of value to any person, with intent to influence or reward an agent of an organization or of a State, local or Indian tribal government, or any agency thereof, in connection with any business, transaction, or series of transactions of such organization, government, or agency involving anything of value of $5,000 or more;

shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 10 years, or both.

(b) The circumstance referred to in subsection (a) of this section is that the organization, government, or agency receives, in any one year period, benefits in excess of $10,000 under a Federal program involving a grant, contract, subsidy, loan, guarantee, insurance, or other form of Federal assistance.

www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/666

[gujake]

Nerlens Noel is among those listed in the document as being connected to ASM Sports. Some might remember that, during Noel's recruitment, there were constant rumors about shady business going down with his handlers. One of the handlers, Randolph, had listed ASM Sports on his LinkedIn page.

I hadn't paid attention to Noel's career but color me not surprised that he signed with ASM after college. Doesn't take a genius to figure out how he ended up at UK.

[DanMcQ]

Feb 23, 2018 12:21:16 GMT -5 Elvado said:

Rest assured, Count Chocula will skate. Just like has for the last 19 years on using an ineligible Corey Magette...

Well played, son of...