Bigs"R"Us
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Post by Bigs"R"Us on May 19, 2020 19:36:58 GMT -5
Xs & Os and defense are fine, but recruiting for me trumps all. If you don’t attract good players the rest doesn’t matter. Coach up the kids at Yates then. 😉
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on May 19, 2020 20:32:59 GMT -5
Xs & Os and defense are fine, but recruiting for me trumps all. If you don’t attract good players the rest doesn’t matter. Coach up the kids at Yates then. 😉 I disagree, player development & X'd & O's are more important than talent/recruiting in my view because the staff has much more control over those aspects unlike talent & recruiting...
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TC
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Post by TC on May 19, 2020 20:39:35 GMT -5
Xs & Os and defense are fine, but recruiting for me trumps all. If you don’t attract good players the rest doesn’t matter. Coach up the kids at Yates then. 😉 Do assistants generally close the deal though, or is that the Head Coach? We've been on everyone's Top 10, some Top 3-5's, but we cannot close.
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Post by reformation on May 19, 2020 21:40:33 GMT -5
I guess I would say is we need more talent--if we want to be consistently a top 10 or 20 program again we need a few elite players. I was struck when we played harvard in NIT. It was pretty clear our talent level was about the same as a top Ivy. Occasional;;y we can get guys to gel with that talent level and be competitive but its unlikely we can win much. given our history and national profile as a univ it seems pretty silly that we would not go after elite talent. Aiming to be a middle of the road program seems like a huge waste.
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Bigs"R"Us
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Post by Bigs"R"Us on May 19, 2020 22:09:57 GMT -5
I think we’re aiming for the top, but falling way short.
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s4hoyas
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Post by s4hoyas on May 19, 2020 22:10:27 GMT -5
I think your third paragraph is spot on...("At this point...") because I think the incoming group can be the foundation of the cohesion you seek moving forward because its a collection of good, determined players (but no stars/one and dones) who hopefully stay together for several years and bond as a team...add to them 2 or 3 players who have star potential in '21, which I think is critical, and I think we can be very competitive over the next few years...
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on May 19, 2020 22:55:20 GMT -5
I guess I would say is we need more talent--if we want to be consistently a top 10 or 20 program again we need a few elite players. I was struck when we played harvard in NIT. It was pretty clear our talent level was about the same as a top Ivy. Occasional;;y we can get guys to gel with that talent level and be competitive but its unlikely we can win much. given our history and national profile as a univ it seems pretty silly that we would not go after elite talent. Aiming to be a middle of the road program seems like a huge waste. First things first though, Gtown will never go from where it is now to become a consistently top 10 to 20 program without first getting back to being a middle of the road program... The staff can go after all the elite talent out there but I doubt many come to a program that isn't winning much and/or getting the kids it has better. Think about it how much elite talent has PC or Seton Hall or Creighton or Xavier or Butler had since the start of the new BE? Each of those programs has consistently won a lot of games in the last 7 seasons...
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Post by reformation on May 20, 2020 7:11:33 GMT -5
Maybe, 1 or 2 elites can turn things around quickly. Even adding one real star to this years team (full strength) might have made a big diff if things didn't fall apart
You may be right on part 2, though none of us really knows why we have so underperformed in recruiting or is it really fixable. Obviously our poor record hurts and the most recent team turmoil. I suspect it is something more but really don't know. Once the chaos subsides I will have lunch with a friend of mine who knows well some elite recruits who turned us down and actually met ewing when he came to recruit them. Maybe I can get some insight, maybe not if he can't share much.
Our ceiling should not be Seton Hall or the others really. They are small regional univ's with good basketball programs. We are a national univ with a former great currently struggling program-would seem like we can try a different strategy
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Bigs"R"Us
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Post by Bigs"R"Us on May 20, 2020 8:05:23 GMT -5
We had a really good team at the start of last season. Egos, selfishness and stupidity did us in. Could you imagine if we played as a team, the upside would’ve been huge over multiple seasons.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on May 20, 2020 10:18:45 GMT -5
Xs & Os and defense are fine, but recruiting for me trumps all. If you don’t attract good players the rest doesn’t matter. Coach up the kids at Yates then. 😉 It depends what you mean. Identifying quality talent and making sure players have potential, fit the system and are hardworking? Then again, it's up there in importance. Getting highly sought after recruits? I'm not going to turn one down, but that's not the path to sustained success. Let's look at Georgetown's Pros and Cons relative to other programs -- and let's make our target being a top program in the BE, not even THE top program or a true blueblood. PROS- Large Budget to Pay Coaching Staff
- DMV Home Turf
- DC, for some recruits who want more of a city atmosphere
- Strong Professional Ties (Verizon Center, Teams Practicing, Alumni, etc)
CONS- No recent success / Georgetown as a prestigious program is dead to everyone but parents
- May not be entirely clean, but we're not remotely a dirty program. No payments, no plush apartments, players actually get in trouble for their hijinks, no prostitutes in recruiting / getting a hooker in the Caribbean gets you booted, etc.
- Players need to go to class / the sophomore year transfer
- No current NBA presence sans Otto, who isn't exactly a star
- Strong competitors heavily recruit the area -- ACC bluebloods, Nova, etc.
- Terrible atmosphere at home that won't change until we are already good
The long and short of it is, we're strongly disadvantaged in recruiting. Our only real advantage is our locale, but even there, the DMV doesn't have a long history of staying home. It loves the ACC, and many of its best players particularly want to get away. Our team is in a very bad place. Banking our recruiting on high level recruiting is a huge mistake. Questions for you: - When was the last time we got a real high level recruit? Greg Monroe? Otto does not count -- he was an unknown that shot up the charts; if he had been known, I doubt he would have been at Georgetown.
- We don't get true high level recruits -- the type that are so good they truly contribute to a winning team in their first year or two. Only Otto really counts as someone who was a net positive as a freshman and a star as a sophomore.
- Instead, what we are gettting are talented players who have can win some games ... but can't be the best player on a winning team until they are likely juniors or the back end of their sophomore years. They need upperclassmen to win. But we keep with this endless cycle of players who think they are better than they are and keep leaving.
- Even of the guys we missed and had a realistic shot at ... who changed the course of a program? Really? Who was that short PG III signed that went to LSU? He was good ... then he left before he did anything there really. If there was a single recruiting miss that changed the course of our program over the last 10 years, it was probably Josh Hart ... who wasn't big recruit at all.
Meanwhile, we are getting passed by teams that built their programs through strong coaching, and then got better players as their rep improved -- Butler and Xavier and Gonzaga. Connecticut under Calhoun. Wisconsin. Virginia. These teams didn't recruit their way to being strong; they coached their way and built from there. The players will come to a winning program. What team became strong out of nowhere simply by recruiting? Memphis under Calipari? So great, we just need to do what Memphis did. The players are vitally important. But you're trying to win in a way we can't win right now. There's no realistic coach out there that's going to change Georgetown recruiting THAT much without simply paying players, and we aren't doing that. We need to build by actually being good.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on May 20, 2020 10:29:04 GMT -5
I guess I would say is we need more talent--if we want to be consistently a top 10 or 20 program again we need a few elite players. I was struck when we played harvard in NIT. It was pretty clear our talent level was about the same as a top Ivy. Occasional;;y we can get guys to gel with that talent level and be competitive but its unlikely we can win much. given our history and national profile as a univ it seems pretty silly that we would not go after elite talent. Aiming to be a middle of the road program seems like a huge waste. To get it, we're going to need to perform well. About half of the Top 25 every year doesn't have talent that anyone thought was Top 25 when it was recruited. That doesn't mean the players aren't talented, but it does mean those teams weren't built by outrecruiting people. And if you get the talent, and it doesn't mesh, or you don't have a coherent plan offensively or defensively, it underperforms anyway. Pretending that getting some top flight assistant recruiter is going to bring in enough gamechanging talent to change the trajectory of the program is silly. Programs rebuild themselves by having a quality coach who can make the team play above talent. Then there's usually a string where underhyped players outperform / are more talented than thought, either through smart identification, development or dumb luck. And then recruiting picks up. It's been the formula for almost every successful program rise I can remember -- even GU. Were JTIII's early teams really based on recruiting? Or a tenacious style with underrated talent that rose the program up high enough that they could get a Patrick Ewing. We're not the type of University that is a recruiting juggernaut for various reasons. We need to stop pretending the GU of the 80s and early 90s is even relevant.
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on May 20, 2020 10:41:44 GMT -5
Maybe, 1 or 2 elites can turn things around quickly. Even adding one real star to this years team (full strength) might have made a big diff if things didn't fall apart You may be right on part 2, though none of us really knows why we have so underperformed in recruiting or is it really fixable. Obviously our poor record hurts and the most recent team turmoil. I suspect it is something more but really don't know. Once the chaos subsides I will have lunch with a friend of mine who knows well some elite recruits who turned us down and actually met ewing when he came to recruit them. Maybe I can get some insight, maybe not if he can't share much. Our ceiling should not be Seton Hall or the others really. They are small regional univ's with good basketball programs. We are a national univ with a former great currently struggling program-would seem like we can try a different strategy Washington had two freshmen who will be top twenty picks in the next draft, Georgia had the top pick, how'd that work out for those teams? I'm not saying Gtown's ceiling should be SH or PC, I'm saying right now they should be targets to reach. Chances are high that Gtown won't get to be on Villanova's level until it gets on the level that Seton Hall is on right now first... There are very few shortcuts to getting back to being a top twenty program
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Post by reformation on May 20, 2020 10:42:04 GMT -5
Coach(es) are the most imp factor in recruiting assuming were at a stature that even warranted consideration(you are implying we do not even warrant consideration- not sure on that one)
We have a celebrity coach who may/may not be able to connect with kids. We need to figure that part out.
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on May 20, 2020 10:55:02 GMT -5
Coach(es) are the most imp factor in recruiting assuming were at a stature that even warranted consideration(you are implying we do not even warrant consideration- not sure on that one) We have a celebrity coach who may/may not be able to connect with kids. We need to figure that part out. Even PE has admitted that his celebrity status has had no impact on recruiting... What coaches are selling about their program is most important in recruiting in my opinion. What do you think the pitch is to come to Gtown right now?
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Post by reformation on May 20, 2020 15:33:54 GMT -5
Ewings status has definitely helped us get to the table with a bunch of guys-we have not been able to close.
Ewing will have to have a good answer for what has gone on + how it will be better going fwd. His celeb might allow him a do-over-I guess we'll find out
With some kids I'm sure Gtwns general rep + network has a effect, for others maybe not so much. Obviously whatever we are doing has had limited success. resenting a credible plan for the recruit and direction for the program-basic stuff
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hoyainla
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Post by hoyainla on May 21, 2020 15:06:19 GMT -5
On the talent vs coaching discussion give me the talent every time. These are all the top 140 HS players signed since 2016 in the BE. These are most of the best recent players. The one player missing that wasn't a transfer is Baldwin and he was 155. Not all are hits but if you recruit just at the 4 star level it's going to be really hard to be bad in the BE. You can coach guys up and they can mold and you can make a run but I don't think you can maintain consistency bringing in a bunch of guys you hope to coach up. If you notice the teams that don't have a lot of players on this list they are the ones that hang out at the bottom of the conference. The caveat being you have to keep the players and not run them off.
2016 Brendan Bailey 92 Sam Hauser 83 Markus Howard 68 Shamorie Ponds 45 Richard Freudenberg 109 Quentin Goodin 78 Tyrique Jones 105 Omari Spellman 20 Maliek White 127 Alpha Diallo 117 Joey Brunk 107 Myles Powell 81 2017 Paul Scruggs 34 Naji Marshall 58 Makai Ashton-Langford 41 Nate Watson 100 Jacob Epperson 77 Mitchell Ballock 94 Ty-Shon Alexander 113 Jermaine Samuels 46 Dhamir Cosby-Roundtree 97 Jamarko Pickett 76 Myles Cale 92 2018 Jahvon Quinerly 29 Cole Swider 44 Brandon Slater 53 Saddiq Bey 137 David Duke 47 A.J. Reeves 48 James Akinjo 90 Josh LeBlanc 122 Marcus Zegarowski 110 Joey Hauser 52 2019 Jeremiah Robinson-Earl 16 Bryan Antoine 17 Justin Moore 57 Eric Dixon 71 KyKy Tandy 89 Dahmir Bishop 119 Zach Freemantle 134 Romeo Weems 62 Qudus Wahab 136 Symir Torrence 75 Khalif Battle 99 Greg Gantt 67
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on May 21, 2020 18:38:06 GMT -5
On the talent vs coaching discussion give me the talent every time. These are all the top 140 HS players signed since 2016 in the BE. These are most of the best recent players. The one player missing that wasn't a transfer is Baldwin and he was 155. Not all are hits but if you recruit just at the 4 star level it's going to be really hard to be bad in the BE. You can coach guys up and they can mold and you can make a run but I don't think you can maintain consistency bringing in a bunch of guys you hope to coach up. If you notice the teams that don't have a lot of players on this list they are the ones that hang out at the bottom of the conference. The caveat being you have to keep the players and not run them off. 2016 Brendan Bailey 92 Sam Hauser 83 Markus Howard 68 Shamorie Ponds 45 Richard Freudenberg 109 Quentin Goodin 78 Tyrique Jones 105 Omari Spellman 20 Maliek White 127 Alpha Diallo 117 Joey Brunk 107 Myles Powell 81 2017 Paul Scruggs 34 Naji Marshall 58 Makai Ashton-Langford 41 Nate Watson 100 Jacob Epperson 77 Mitchell Ballock 94 Ty-Shon Alexander 113 Jermaine Samuels 46 Dhamir Cosby-Roundtree 97 Jamarko Pickett 76 Myles Cale 92 2018 Jahvon Quinerly 29 Cole Swider 44 Brandon Slater 53 Saddiq Bey 137 David Duke 47 A.J. Reeves 48 James Akinjo 90 Josh LeBlanc 122 Marcus Zegarowski 110 Joey Hauser 52 2019 Jeremiah Robinson-Earl 16 Bryan Antoine 17 Justin Moore 57 Eric Dixon 71 KyKy Tandy 89 Dahmir Bishop 119 Zach Freemantle 134 Romeo Weems 62 Qudus Wahab 136 Symir Torrence 75 Khalif Battle 99 Greg Gantt 67 A nice run is what will help to bring in the better players in my opinion... JT3 made his statement by turning kids like Bowman, Cook, Owens, Hibbert & Green into a good team. That led to Summers & Macklin which led to Freeman & Wright which led to Monroe, Sims & Clark... Do you think he gets on that run of recruiting without the early success he had with a lot of "undervalued" players? I don't
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LCPolo18
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Post by LCPolo18 on May 24, 2020 15:35:31 GMT -5
Gene Smith started a Sunday weekly Instagram live show. Last week he interviewed Trey Dickerson but I missed it and still trying to find an archive of it. This week he interviewed Greg Malinowski. One of the things I found interesting was that Greg was trying to come closer to home and move up to a higher level of competition, so he reached out to Coach Waheed (who had recruited him out of high school) to help him transfer to GW. GW wasn’t interested so Coach Waheed introduced him to Coach Ewing. He also apparently lost about 10-15 pounds going into his senior year. www.instagram.com/tv/CAlC0enHC5q/?igshid=1nn5j5jkzou8i
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hoyaroc
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Post by hoyaroc on May 24, 2020 16:34:39 GMT -5
Gene Smith started a Sunday weekly Instagram live show. Last week he interviewed Trey Dickerson but I missed it and still trying to find an archive of it. This week he interviewed Greg Malinowski. One of the things I found interesting was that Greg was trying to come closer to home and move up to a higher level of competition, so he reached out to Coach Waheed (who had recruited him out of high school) to help him transfer to GW. GW wasn’t interested so Coach Waheed introduced him to Coach Ewing. He also apparently lost about 10-15 pounds going into his senior year. www.instagram.com/tv/CAlC0enHC5q/?igshid=1nn5j5jkzou8i A very good interview with Greg M. This should give the naysayers a better perspective on the program hearing from coach Ewing former players. The narrative is that the Gtown men’s basketball program is a disaster under coach Ewing.
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Post by HamptonHoya on May 25, 2020 6:32:53 GMT -5
Gene Smith started a Sunday weekly Instagram live show. Last week he interviewed Trey Dickerson but I missed it and still trying to find an archive of it. This week he interviewed Greg Malinowski. One of the things I found interesting was that Greg was trying to come closer to home and move up to a higher level of competition, so he reached out to Coach Waheed (who had recruited him out of high school) to help him transfer to GW. GW wasn’t interested so Coach Waheed introduced him to Coach Ewing. He also apparently lost about 10-15 pounds going into his senior year. www.instagram.com/tv/CAlC0enHC5q/?igshid=1nn5j5jkzou8iThank you very much for posting this. It is important for fans to get a version of events from the source. We can paint our own pictures with speculation. I will be on the lookout on more from Gene Smith, one of my favorites. I hope he can speak with one of the big men who can state how coach improved their games. If Gene's spot can get more views, I believe it can only help out the program. If we can only tap into the DMV pipeline on a consistent basis....
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