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Post by FrazierFanatic on Mar 11, 2017 21:53:56 GMT -5
For those who insisted that fear of losing Waters must not be a reason to keep the coach, actually losing him cannot be a reason to fire the coach. I am not denying there are a variety of reasons to change coaches. But this should not be one of them.
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95hoya
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Post by 95hoya on Mar 11, 2017 21:56:07 GMT -5
Duke doesn't have a PG commit for 2017. When players decommit, they have a pretty good idea where they are going. They never do it blindly.
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SDHoya
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Post by SDHoya on Mar 11, 2017 21:59:27 GMT -5
For those who insisted that fear of losing Waters must not be a reason to keep the coach, actually losing him cannot be a reason to fire the coach. I am not denying there are a variety of reasons to change coaches. But this should not be one of them. I was already on board for moving on from JTIII, even at the risk of losing Waters. But I'd also be lying if in the back of my mind I wasn't thinking, "well maybe Waters is that type of game changer recruit who can turn things around for us." Now that hope is gone. I officially have no faith (not even that little inkling in the back of my mind) that the Hoyas will turn things around with the current head coach. All I am saying is that there are now zero excuses.
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eagle54
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Post by eagle54 on Mar 11, 2017 22:01:11 GMT -5
For those who insisted that fear of losing Waters must not be a reason to keep the coach, actually losing him cannot be a reason to fire the coach. I am not denying there are a variety of reasons to change coaches. But this should not be one of them. That's the only card this coach was holding in support of his job.
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Elvado
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Post by Elvado on Mar 11, 2017 22:09:04 GMT -5
If this young man does not want to attend Georgetown, give him his release. It is time for a serious assessment of where we are as a basketball program.
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bamahoya11
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Post by bamahoya11 on Mar 11, 2017 22:14:11 GMT -5
For those who insisted that fear of losing Waters must not be a reason to keep the coach, actually losing him cannot be a reason to fire the coach. I am not denying there are a variety of reasons to change coaches. But this should not be one of them. I was already on board for moving on from JTIII, even at the risk of losing Waters. But I'd also be lying if in the back of my mind I wasn't thinking, "well maybe Waters is that type of game changer recruit who can turn things around for us." Now that hope is gone. I officially have no faith (not even that little inkling in the back of my mind) that the Hoyas will turn things around with the current head coach. All I am saying is that there are now zero excuses. This is exactly what I have been thinking. Before, I was probably 80%. Now I'm 100%.
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Post by FrazierFanatic on Mar 11, 2017 22:21:45 GMT -5
For those who insisted that fear of losing Waters must not be a reason to keep the coach, actually losing him cannot be a reason to fire the coach. I am not denying there are a variety of reasons to change coaches. But this should not be one of them. That's the only card this coach was holding in support of his job. That is not entirely true. But the negatives outweigh the positives, in my opinion.
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eagle54
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Post by eagle54 on Mar 11, 2017 22:25:21 GMT -5
That's the only card this coach was holding in support of his job. That is not entirely true. But the negatives outweigh the positives, in my opinion. What else do we have in the positives? His name matches the practice building? If he comes back it's going to get rough unless he pulls some recruiting rabbits out of the hat. A new coach will at least be given time to rebuild but this continuation downward and I'll feel bad for this coach. But nothing another $3m can't get you through for another year.
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Post by FrazierFanatic on Mar 11, 2017 22:27:26 GMT -5
That is not entirely true. But the negatives outweigh the positives, in my opinion. What else do we have in the positives? His name matches the practice building? If he comes back it's going to get rough unless he pulls some recruiting rabbits out of the hat. A new coach will at least be given time to rebuild but this continuation downward and I'll feel bad for this coach. But nothing another $3m can't get you through for another year. Again, I am not advocating that we keep him at this point.
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Highsmith
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Post by Highsmith on Mar 11, 2017 22:37:46 GMT -5
Yeah, the fans caused the team to lose it's last 6 games en route to consecutive losing seasons. He committed to the school after a losing season! Recruits commit to programs that have gone through losing seasons all the time - otherwise no program would ever rebuild. It's the perceived coaching instability that makes recruits uncommit. The fans did that. And he was then recruited by promises of a new offense/way of playing that didn't happen. Fans didn't make anything happen.....we reacted to what was put before us. Garbage in.....garbage out.
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TC
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Post by TC on Mar 11, 2017 22:43:02 GMT -5
He committed to the school after a losing season! Recruits commit to programs that have gone through losing seasons all the time - otherwise no program would ever rebuild. It's the perceived coaching instability that makes recruits uncommit. The fans did that. And he was then recruited by promises of a new offense/way of playing that didn't happen. Fans didn't make anything happen.....we reacted to what was put before us. Garbage in.....garbage out. Please, none of the news in the past week have been about offensive scheme. It's been about firing the coach. Fan base did this, they should own up to it. They don't care what they burn down in order to get what they want.
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Post by Lethal_Interjection on Mar 11, 2017 22:48:17 GMT -5
And he was then recruited by promises of a new offense/way of playing that didn't happen. Fans didn't make anything happen.....we reacted to what was put before us. Garbage in.....garbage out. Please, none of the news in the past week have been about offensive scheme. It's been about firing the coach. Fan base did this, they should own up to it. They don't care what they burn down in order to get what they want. JT3's record the past few seasons has been an issue as well, it's time for a change to be made.
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hoyasaxa2003
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Mar 11, 2017 22:49:07 GMT -5
Again, Waters said: "Waters says, "After observing everything that's occurring lately and thoroughly thinking of this next decision... I want to respectfully remove myself from Georgetown University."
Waters said "lately." Waters has been committed from November. It's been clear for quite some time that our team this season is not a very good one. Yes, we all held out hopes of a finish better than 5-13, but it was pretty obvious shortly after his commitment that we weren't all that good. And the way in which the team played hasn't significantly changed over the last several months. If this was our offense or style of play, Waters easily could have decommitted months ago.
In my mind, there's no doubt that the swirling rumors about JT3 and the negative attention had to have been a factor, because otherwise you typically wouldn't decommit so late in the game. And yes, the national media covered it, and there's no denying that. But, I do firmly believe that the constant chatter and unrelenting negativity from the fan-base here and at Casual Hoya (which is far worse, in my opinion) doesn't help.
Seriously, if you were an outside person with no affiliation with Georgetown, and you read HoyaTalk and CasualHoya over the last several months, would you want to stay at Georgetown? I mean, even in bad times, there's plenty of room for fans to stand behind their players, express hope for improvement, etc. And I actually do think those sentiments have been expressed here, even if they are absent from a site like Casual Hoya.
People also complain about recruiting point guards, yet fans constantly rail against JT3's purported inability to develop players, especially guards. They'd also read constant posts talking about how horrible a coach he is, and how he cannot develop players, even though that's demonstrably false. For example, Casual's article on Waters specifically references the fact that JT3 hasn't developed guards, which is simply a blatantly mistruth (Chris Wright and Starks say hello). But, that would get in the way of their agenda, so of course they're going to spout nonsense like that. It's truly disheartening.
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Post by Lethal_Interjection on Mar 11, 2017 22:59:00 GMT -5
Again, Waters said: "Waters says, "After observing everything that's occurring lately and thoroughly thinking of this next decision... I want to respectfully remove myself from Georgetown University." Waters said "lately." Waters has been committed from November. It's been clear for quite some time that our team this season is not a very good one. Yes, we all held out hopes of a finish better than 5-13, but it was pretty obvious shortly after his commitment that we weren't all that good. And the way in which the team played hasn't significantly changed over the last several months. If this was our offense or style of play, Waters easily could have decommitted months ago. In my mind, there's no doubt that the swirling rumors about JT3 and the negative attention had to have been a factor, because otherwise you typically wouldn't decommit so late in the game. And yes, the national media covered it, and there's no denying that. But, I do firmly believe that the constant chatter and unrelenting negativity from the fan-base here and at Casual Hoya (which is far worse, in my opinion) doesn't help. Seriously, if you were an outside person with no affiliation with Georgetown, and you read HoyaTalk and CasualHoya over the last several months, would you want to stay at Georgetown? I mean, even in bad times, there's plenty of room for fans to stand behind their players, express hope for improvement, etc. And I actually do think those sentiments have been expressed here, even if they are absent from a site like Casual Hoya. People also complain about recruiting point guards, yet fans constantly rail against JT3's purported inability to develop players, especially guards. They'd also read constant posts talking about how horrible a coach he is, and how he cannot develop players, even though that's demonstrably false. For example, Casual's article on Waters specifically references the fact that JT3 hasn't developed guards, which is simply a blatantly mistruth (Chris Wright and Starks say hello). But, that would get in the way of their agenda, so of course they're going to spout nonsense like that. It's truly disheartening. So you're blaming the fans, another talk forum and the national media for Water's decommitting from the GU program? However, his coaching the record the past few seasons hasn't been pretty to say the least. Also I thought he was in it for the prestigious education that GU was offering?
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TC
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Post by TC on Mar 11, 2017 23:09:48 GMT -5
Again, Waters said: "Waters says, "After observing everything that's occurring lately and thoroughly thinking of this next decision... I want to respectfully remove myself from Georgetown University." Waters said "lately." Waters has been committed from November. It's been clear for quite some time that our team this season is not a very good one. Yes, we all held out hopes of a finish better than 5-13, but it was pretty obvious shortly after his commitment that we weren't all that good. And the way in which the team played hasn't significantly changed over the last several months. If this was our offense or style of play, Waters easily could have decommitted months ago. In my mind, there's no doubt that the swirling rumors about JT3 and the negative attention had to have been a factor, because otherwise you typically wouldn't decommit so late in the game. And yes, the national media covered it, and there's no denying that. But, I do firmly believe that the constant chatter and unrelenting negativity from the fan-base here and at Casual Hoya (which is far worse, in my opinion) doesn't help. Seriously, if you were an outside person with no affiliation with Georgetown, and you read HoyaTalk and CasualHoya over the last several months, would you want to stay at Georgetown? I mean, even in bad times, there's plenty of room for fans to stand behind their players, express hope for improvement, etc. And I actually do think those sentiments have been expressed here, even if they are absent from a site like Casual Hoya. People also complain about recruiting point guards, yet fans constantly rail against JT3's purported inability to develop players, especially guards. They'd also read constant posts talking about how horrible a coach he is, and how he cannot develop players, even though that's demonstrably false. For example, Casual's article on Waters specifically references the fact that JT3 hasn't developed guards, which is simply a blatantly mistruth (Chris Wright and Starks say hello). But, that would get in the way of their agenda, so of course they're going to spout nonsense like that. It's truly disheartening. Wish I could like this more than once.
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eagle54
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Post by eagle54 on Mar 11, 2017 23:14:49 GMT -5
Again, Waters said: "Waters says, "After observing everything that's occurring lately and thoroughly thinking of this next decision... I want to respectfully remove myself from Georgetown University." Waters said "lately." Waters has been committed from November. It's been clear for quite some time that our team this season is not a very good one. Yes, we all held out hopes of a finish better than 5-13, but it was pretty obvious shortly after his commitment that we weren't all that good. And the way in which the team played hasn't significantly changed over the last several months. If this was our offense or style of play, Waters easily could have decommitted months ago. In my mind, there's no doubt that the swirling rumors about JT3 and the negative attention had to have been a factor, because otherwise you typically wouldn't decommit so late in the game. And yes, the national media covered it, and there's no denying that. But, I do firmly believe that the constant chatter and unrelenting negativity from the fan-base here and at Casual Hoya (which is far worse, in my opinion) doesn't help. Seriously, if you were an outside person with no affiliation with Georgetown, and you read HoyaTalk and CasualHoya over the last several months, would you want to stay at Georgetown? I mean, even in bad times, there's plenty of room for fans to stand behind their players, express hope for improvement, etc. And I actually do think those sentiments have been expressed here, even if they are absent from a site like Casual Hoya. People also complain about recruiting point guards, yet fans constantly rail against JT3's purported inability to develop players, especially guards. They'd also read constant posts talking about how horrible a coach he is, and how he cannot develop players, even though that's demonstrably false. For example, Casual's article on Waters specifically references the fact that JT3 hasn't developed guards, which is simply a blatantly mistruth (Chris Wright and Starks say hello). But, that would get in the way of their agenda, so of course they're going to spout nonsense like that. It's truly disheartening. Wish I could like this more than once. You guys are stretching this one. I'm sure it was the message boards that caused this and not a second year in a row that this team completely collapsed in the last two months. And him looking around at who he'd be playing with. It's ridiculous but that's what makes you both so special as well as this board.
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Mar 11, 2017 23:15:48 GMT -5
Again, Waters said: "Waters says, "After observing everything that's occurring lately and thoroughly thinking of this next decision... I want to respectfully remove myself from Georgetown University." Waters said "lately." Waters has been committed from November. It's been clear for quite some time that our team this season is not a very good one. Yes, we all held out hopes of a finish better than 5-13, but it was pretty obvious shortly after his commitment that we weren't all that good. And the way in which the team played hasn't significantly changed over the last several months. If this was our offense or style of play, Waters easily could have decommitted months ago. In my mind, there's no doubt that the swirling rumors about JT3 and the negative attention had to have been a factor, because otherwise you typically wouldn't decommit so late in the game. And yes, the national media covered it, and there's no denying that. But, I do firmly believe that the constant chatter and unrelenting negativity from the fan-base here and at Casual Hoya (which is far worse, in my opinion) doesn't help. Seriously, if you were an outside person with no affiliation with Georgetown, and you read HoyaTalk and CasualHoya over the last several months, would you want to stay at Georgetown? I mean, even in bad times, there's plenty of room for fans to stand behind their players, express hope for improvement, etc. And I actually do think those sentiments have been expressed here, even if they are absent from a site like Casual Hoya. People also complain about recruiting point guards, yet fans constantly rail against JT3's purported inability to develop players, especially guards. They'd also read constant posts talking about how horrible a coach he is, and how he cannot develop players, even though that's demonstrably false. For example, Casual's article on Waters specifically references the fact that JT3 hasn't developed guards, which is simply a blatantly mistruth (Chris Wright and Starks say hello). But, that would get in the way of their agenda, so of course they're going to spout nonsense like that. It's truly disheartening. JT3 just went to see the kid play, same with Solomon.. Both of them had the opportunity to speak with Waters on a daily basis, this isn't about message boards.. Posting this is just more excuses in my view..
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OldHoyafan
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Post by OldHoyafan on Mar 11, 2017 23:16:31 GMT -5
Wow, this is indeed distressing news for those of us who had a glimmer of hope that things would be different next year. I did not think I could get any lower this basketball year, but here we are. I really feel for JTIII, because this kids signing was the only glimmer of hope for next year. III painted himself into a corner this year with his preseason statements that the present Hoyas would be very good this year. I don't know if he really believed that himself or did so trying to quiet the naysayers that had continuously called for his job, hoping that the players would jell and provide a winning season. Although many of us denied it, and continued to hold out hope, the season changed for the worst when Paul White decided to transfer. With the addition of Pryor and the perceived big improvement of Derrickson, coupled with the announced new faster paced offense, I downplayed White's departure even though I thought he was one of the team's best players. White of all the forwards on the team, had the ability to be that point/forward needed to run the Princeton offense(decent 3pt shot, decent handle and ability to pass the ball). His defense and rebounding were not up to par but you thought with practice they would get better. That was followed by Copeland, but his play had shown that he had lost his confidence in his shot so you again did not think the ship was sinking. When Mulmore and Mosely failed to ignite a running offense and the early losses came, III made another fateful decision, he scrapped whatever there was of a running offense and went back to the Princeton but as wrote about many times the present Hoyad are not equipped to run it. I don't know if III actually made the remark that the Princeyon offense did not require a traditional pg, but a point forward,but it was attributed to him if he said it or not. I am sure opposing coaches used that when talking to Hoya targets like Crawford, Bracey and Lykes. It's sad outside of Wright, the guy never had a true pg to run the team for him, sad.
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bamahoya11
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Post by bamahoya11 on Mar 11, 2017 23:18:35 GMT -5
A lot of the stuff about the fans leading to this are overblown. Fans are critical of the coach at virtually any program that has any sort of expectations. I doubt that any message board for a losing team at a significant program is brimming with optimism. I think there are plenty of respectful folks on both sides of the JTIII divide. But any suggestion that JTIII would not be facing serious questions at any major program right now is ridiculous. Goodman at ESPN isn't writing a lead story on the coaching situation at Georgetown and SVP isn't discussing it on Sports Center because some fans on a message board are unhappy. They're discussing it because a major program is struggling and it's a unique situation with family connections and the like.
All that said, some of the negativity about the players has gotten a bit strong. I saw yesterday after we offered Kante that Casual basically tweeted mocking the offer. It's hard to imagine a kid would read something like that and then want to come here. So, words do have consequences. But, if recruits made decisions based on message boards they would have a hard time finding anywhere to go and play.
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hoyasaxa2003
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Mar 11, 2017 23:19:24 GMT -5
So you're blaming the fans, another talk forum and the national media for Water's decommitting from the GU program? However, his coaching the record the past few seasons hasn't been pretty to say the least. Also I thought he was in it for the prestigious education that GU was offering? No, I am not blaming fans. I am placing some of the blame on the overzealous folks who are unrelentingly negative. As far as education, (1) I have never said Waters came here for education, and (2) he can get a plenty prestigious education elsewhere, like at Duke. Waters clearly liked what we had to offer. He liked the staff. He liked the university. This was in November. It's not like he committed two years ago. How you can possibly pretend like the recent vocal fan angst against JT3 and the "Fire Thompson" chants had nothing to do with it?
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