calhoya
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Post by calhoya on May 19, 2016 6:54:41 GMT -5
Even if he preps and waits for a schollie for us for 2017 where are all of these scholarships gonna come from? We're over the limit right now in terms of players (fourteen) who expect to play. At the end of next season we are only certain to only lose Hayes, Pryor and Cameron, with one of their schollies already designated to Tyler for 2017. So who else is gonna leave? Hoya fans here for years liked to claim that the team can expect a transfer or two each season ( a silly way of hoping for an open schollie IMO), but the last few seasons this program hasn't had such transfers leaving the program. So will be players open up room by leaving for the pros? But how can they do that if they aren't all that good as most HT fans seem to argue (because its always less contentious to blame the lack of talent in our players on this board than criticize the coach). So if you are one of those who think the program needs a serious upgrade in talent on this roster please explain where all the roster space is going to come from if our current players just aren't all that good to leave early? Agree with this concern. I do not think that the problem has been a lack of talent but rather a combination of that talent not developing (or being developed) as quickly as expected and parts that have not fit within the system being played. We know that three players will leave next year. Counting Foster and being one player over the limit means that there is only one spot left. I think that it has to go to a post player and yet the recruiting site is filled with guards being recruited. I still come to this site regularly expecting to see that someone is leaving this year, but that looks less likely by the day. It is going to be a interesting problem. With the exception of LJ Peak, no one else finished the season in a manner that would lead to serious speculation about an early departure.
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bostonfan
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Post by bostonfan on May 19, 2016 7:02:50 GMT -5
It is a good point. Unless someone else leaves, there will only be 2 available scholarships after this year. Hopefully Lykes, or another high quality point guard, and a quality center/big man join the program. Sounds like they are involved with a bunch of other quality players/recruits but unless someone declares for the draft or transfers there will be no space.
I understand they need to be involved with a lot of possible recruits so they are prepared in case a spot opens, but I don't see too many more scholarships opening up.
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on May 19, 2016 7:39:36 GMT -5
Even if he preps and waits for a schollie for us for 2017 where are all of these scholarships gonna come from? We're over the limit right now in terms of players (fourteen) who expect to play. At the end of next season we are only certain to only lose Hayes, Pryor and Cameron, with one of their schollies already designated to Tyler for 2017. So who else is gonna leave? Hoya fans here for years liked to claim that the team can expect a transfer or two each season ( a silly way of hoping for an open schollie IMO), but the last few seasons this program hasn't had such transfers leaving the program. So will be players open up room by leaving for the pros? But how can they do that if they aren't all that good as most HT fans seem to argue (because its always less contentious to blame the lack of talent in our players on this board than criticize the coach). So if you are one of those who think the program needs a serious upgrade in talent on this roster please explain where all the roster space is going to come from if our current players just aren't all that good to leave early? Agree with this concern. I do not think that the problem has been a lack of talent but rather a combination of that talent not developing (or being developed) as quickly as expected and parts that have not fit within the system being played. We know that three players will leave next year. Counting Foster and being one player over the limit means that there is only one spot left. I think that it has to go to a post player and yet the recruiting site is filled with guards being recruited. I still come to this site regularly expecting to see that someone is leaving this year, but that looks less likely by the day. It is going to be a interesting problem. With the exception of LJ Peak, no one else finished the season in a manner that would lead to serious speculation about an early departure. I disagree Cal.. The program needs a guard(ball handler type) in 2017 in the worst way.. I love Mosely more than anyone but I'd like to see another player getting experience in the back-court along side him in 2017..
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calhoya
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Post by calhoya on May 19, 2016 8:42:01 GMT -5
Agree with this concern. I do not think that the problem has been a lack of talent but rather a combination of that talent not developing (or being developed) as quickly as expected and parts that have not fit within the system being played. We know that three players will leave next year. Counting Foster and being one player over the limit means that there is only one spot left. I think that it has to go to a post player and yet the recruiting site is filled with guards being recruited. I still come to this site regularly expecting to see that someone is leaving this year, but that looks less likely by the day. It is going to be a interesting problem. With the exception of LJ Peak, no one else finished the season in a manner that would lead to serious speculation about an early departure. I disagree Cal.. The program needs a guard(ball handler type) in 2017 in the worst way.. I love Mosely more than anyone but I'd like to see another player getting experience in the back-court along side him in 2017.. I think that your comment actually points out the problem for the Hoyas next year. They may have more needs than spots. While it is complete speculation at this point, let's assume that no one else leaves besides those scheduled to depart. You will have at the 1/2 positions Peak, Campbell, Mosley, Mulmore and Johnson. I am hopeful that White is also in that mix. Behind Govan you will have Mourning, Akoy and possibly Derrickson and Copeland if you go small. I am not convinced that Mourning, Copeland and Derricson will ever have the size/bulk to play the 5. Akoy is a major unknown but unless he has some range on his shot, we would have a much smaller version of Hayes whenever the post is called upon to come out top while presenting no threat of scoring from that distance. I know that there was a lot to complain about this year but one of the two shortcomings that drove me crazy was the lack of rebounding. Among our players at the 4/5 only Akoy has the rebounder label and that right now is based solely upon a reputation that has yet to be tested on the court.
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bostonfan
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Post by bostonfan on May 19, 2016 8:44:32 GMT -5
Agree with this concern. I do not think that the problem has been a lack of talent but rather a combination of that talent not developing (or being developed) as quickly as expected and parts that have not fit within the system being played. We know that three players will leave next year. Counting Foster and being one player over the limit means that there is only one spot left. I think that it has to go to a post player and yet the recruiting site is filled with guards being recruited. I still come to this site regularly expecting to see that someone is leaving this year, but that looks less likely by the day. It is going to be a interesting problem. With the exception of LJ Peak, no one else finished the season in a manner that would lead to serious speculation about an early departure. I disagree Cal.. The program needs a guard(ball handler type) in 2017 in the worst way.. I love Mosely more than anyone but I'd like to see another player getting experience in the back-court along side him in 2017.. I agree, a true point guard needs to priority #1. They are going to go into this year hoping they have found someone to fill that roll, but I am not 100% convinced they have. A big man would be the next priority because Hayes is going to be gone and I am not sure we will have Jessie for 4 years, so filling that position is going to be important. I just don't see them adding another wing player unless someone leaves early after this year
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RBHoya
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Post by RBHoya on May 19, 2016 9:42:19 GMT -5
I think it's way too early to start counting scholarships--at this point, you just recruit the best players you can and see where you can make inroads. Go hard after your top prospects and if you end up missing on them--guys like Lykes, Jackson, etc.--then you identify some fallback options who get offers once those guys come off the board if you've determined you have a clear need at a particular position.
Overall I tend to think fans worry way too much about scholarship counts. I know it's a message board and so small things get magnified, but scholarships pretty much always worked out. Within his original post, MCI states that there are "14 guys who expect to play", and we all know that there's virtually no way that more than 10 guys get regular PT. If some of the guys who are left out are underclassmen, don't they all have to at least consider if a move would make sense? We haven't had a transfer in a while but I don't think that indicates that we've somehow mitigated the age old problem of PT-related transfers, I think it means we're probably due for some, maybe as early as end of fall semester. NBA projections are much harder to make at this point, but it's certainly a possibility. The larger point is, scholarships will likely open up. Sometimes we all see it coming, sometimes we get blindsided, but the odds are good that it will happen somehow. And if you wait until it actually happens to start recruiting to fill those vacancies, that's a good way to get caught with your pants down. I think you have to beat the bushes all along, going after good players regardless of position or scholarships in hand.
So overall, way too early IMHO to worry about scholarships, especially considering that we have 3 graduating seniors and only 1 commitment. Seems like looking for something to worry about.
As far as Walker, I'm a fan. Being a year older will only help. If we can lock him in this summer, I think we should.
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Post by thejerseytornado on May 19, 2016 9:53:22 GMT -5
I'm confused. If we're 1 player over the limit now and there's no one leaving, that means someone will be a non-scholarship player (like most, I assume that'll be mourning).
So unless the non-schollie player is one of the ones leaving as a senior (not possible, as I understand it), that means we can continue to have that additional player in 2017-18. Thus, that would mean there are 3 open spots for that year and all of this hand-wringing is even more unnecessary than RBHoya correctly pointed out.
bird in the hand. bird in the damn hand.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on May 19, 2016 10:01:21 GMT -5
Yes, while I also think the focus on 2017 is understandable, in the long term, the classes of 2018 and 2019 are way more important. Given the team dynamics, I think the 2017 class is key more in quality of who we recruit than quantity. Given the large number of players in the class of 2018 (Campbell, Peak, Copeland, White, Mulmore, Agau - though White would have another season if he chooses and I'm unsure of Agau's status), it pretty much guarantees we need a high quality and quantity class from the high school class of 2018. Obviously, it's too early to speculate on the 2018 class, but in a lot of ways I think that class is way more important to the long term future than 2017, though all are important obviously.
I tend to agree with RBHoya - I think, within reason, you recruit who you can get (and want), and let the scholarship situation figure itself out.
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on May 19, 2016 10:40:08 GMT -5
I think it's way too early to start counting scholarships--at this point, you just recruit the best players you can and see where you can make inroads. Go hard after your top prospects and if you end up missing on them--guys like Lykes, Jackson, etc.--then you identify some fallback options who get offers once those guys come off the board if you've determined you have a clear need at a particular position. Overall I tend to think fans worry way too much about scholarship counts. I know it's a message board and so small things get magnified, but scholarships pretty much always worked out. Within his original post, MCI states that there are "14 guys who expect to play", and we all know that there's virtually no way that more than 10 guys get regular PT. If some of the guys who are left out are underclassmen, don't they all have to at least consider if a move would make sense? We haven't had a transfer in a while but I don't think that indicates that we've somehow mitigated the age old problem of PT-related transfers, I think it means we're probably due for some, maybe as early as end of fall semester. NBA projections are much harder to make at this point, but it's certainly a possibility. The larger point is, scholarships will likely open up. Sometimes we all see it coming, sometimes we get blindsided, but the odds are good that it will happen somehow. And if you wait until it actually happens to start recruiting to fill those vacancies, that's a good way to get caught with your pants down. I think you have to beat the bushes all along, going after good players regardless of position or scholarships in hand. So overall, way too early IMHO to worry about scholarships, especially considering that we have 3 graduating seniors and only 1 commitment. Seems like looking for something to worry about. As far as Walker, I'm a fan. Being a year older will only help. If we can lock him in this summer, I think we should. Maybe I'm not seeing it properly but in my mind there are 2 spots at most right now for 2017.. Pryor = 1 for sure.. Whoever is giving up the scholarship for Hayes this season would be the other but that assumes that person isn't getting it back for 2017 or a Sr this season is giving up his.. Not sure we're the 3rd spot folks are talking about comes from.. If we're being honest, this isn't a team built for transfers.. Most of the 2014 kids play & until I see otherwise I will assume they'll play a good amount next season too, the one who doesn't is a huge legacy to the program so not sure he's going anywhere.. There could be a candidate in 2015 but you have to consider the fact his choosing Gtown for its academics wasn't lip service, he's made it clear a Gtown education is important to him and his family... You're right that spots open up but it's hard to take verbals from kids when you're not certain what you have available.. I think it's fair to be concerned about available spots.. If Lykes, JJ & Walker wanted to verbal today, the staff would have to make some hard decisions..
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hoyaboya
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Post by hoyaboya on May 19, 2016 10:42:11 GMT -5
I think it's way too early to start counting scholarships--at this point, you just recruit the best players you can and see where you can make inroads. Go hard after your top prospects and if you end up missing on them--guys like Lykes, Jackson, etc.--then you identify some fallback options who get offers once those guys come off the board if you've determined you have a clear need at a particular position. Overall I tend to think fans worry way too much about scholarship counts. I know it's a message board and so small things get magnified, but scholarships pretty much always worked out. Within his original post, MCI states that there are "14 guys who expect to play", and we all know that there's virtually no way that more than 10 guys get regular PT. If some of the guys who are left out are underclassmen, don't they all have to at least consider if a move would make sense? We haven't had a transfer in a while but I don't think that indicates that we've somehow mitigated the age old problem of PT-related transfers, I think it means we're probably due for some, maybe as early as end of fall semester. NBA projections are much harder to make at this point, but it's certainly a possibility. The larger point is, scholarships will likely open up. Sometimes we all see it coming, sometimes we get blindsided, but the odds are good that it will happen somehow. And if you wait until it actually happens to start recruiting to fill those vacancies, that's a good way to get caught with your pants down. I think you have to beat the bushes all along, going after good players regardless of position or scholarships in hand. So overall, way too early IMHO to worry about scholarships, especially considering that we have 3 graduating seniors and only 1 commitment. Seems like looking for something to worry about. As far as Walker, I'm a fan. Being a year older will only help. If we can lock him in this summer, I think we should. Maybe I'm not seeing it properly but in my mind there are 2 spots at most right now for 2017.. Pryor = 1 for sure.. Whoever is giving up the scholarship for Hayes this season would be the other but that assumes that person isn't getting it back for 2017 or a Sr this season is giving up his.. Not sure we're the 3rd spot folks are talking about comes from..If we're being honest, this isn't a team built for transfers.. Most of the 2014 kids play & until I see otherwise I will assume they'll play a good amount next season too, the one who doesn't is a huge legacy to the program so not sure he's going anywhere.. There could be a candidate in 2015 but you have to consider the fact his choosing Gtown for its academics wasn't lip service, he's made it clear a Gtown education is important to him and his family... You're right that spots open up but it's hard to take verbals from kids when you're not certain what you have available.. I think it's fair to be concerned about available spots.. If Lykes, JJ & Walker wanted to verbal today, the staff would have to make some hard decisions.. Reggie Cameron?
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on May 19, 2016 11:01:09 GMT -5
Maybe I'm not seeing it properly but in my mind there are 2 spots at most right now for 2017.. Pryor = 1 for sure.. Whoever is giving up the scholarship for Hayes this season would be the other but that assumes that person isn't getting it back for 2017 or a Sr this season is giving up his.. Not sure we're the 3rd spot folks are talking about comes from..If we're being honest, this isn't a team built for transfers.. Most of the 2014 kids play & until I see otherwise I will assume they'll play a good amount next season too, the one who doesn't is a huge legacy to the program so not sure he's going anywhere.. There could be a candidate in 2015 but you have to consider the fact his choosing Gtown for its academics wasn't lip service, he's made it clear a Gtown education is important to him and his family... You're right that spots open up but it's hard to take verbals from kids when you're not certain what you have available.. I think it's fair to be concerned about available spots.. If Lykes, JJ & Walker wanted to verbal today, the staff would have to make some hard decisions.. Reggie Cameron? Pretty sure that spot goes to Foster.. At least that's what the scholarship table says..
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calhoya
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Post by calhoya on May 19, 2016 11:19:14 GMT -5
Assuming no one leaves this year there are three players leaving the program next year--Pryor, Hayes and Cameron. We are one over the limit now so that means only two scholarships are open and one of those scholarships is gone already. As I comprehend the situation the Hoyas will have one spot, barring transfer or other departure from the program. I do agree with the notion that you keep recruiting and worry about scholarships sorting themselves out later on, even though I am strongly opposed to removing a player's scholarship because he has been recruited over.
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on May 19, 2016 11:49:23 GMT -5
Okay, maybe my math is fuzzy.
As of now we have 13 scholarships accommodating 14 legit D1 players who all EXPECT to play. After next season we are set to lose Hayes, Cameron and Pryor. At best that’s three scholarship openings but more than likely that means we will only get two opened schollies from the three of them. Why? Because something has been done behind the scenes to accommodate Hayes’s fifth year when the team was already at the limit. If there is some special circumstance that allowed Hayes to get a free ride that doesn’t count against the scholarship limit then that special circumstance is over as soon as next season ends and does not carry over as an open scholarship the following year. If however another player on the team, let’s say Mourning, went off of scholarship because of some backroom discussions with his Alum parent who can afford the tuition hit without a blink then that is swell and all but it does not guarantee that said player will continue having his dad pay for his scholarship again after Hayes is gone. Because that may have just been a sort of one-time “gift” ( for lack of a better word) for Hayes for all he has done for the program but once he leaves no one else coming in would deserve such consideration from the Mournings. And for those who want to argue that I would ask you why would the Mournings keep playing for Trey’s schollie just so the Hoyas could bring in other players on scholarships who could take away his court time? It isn’t as if Trey couldn’t leave the program right now and not get a schollie at a very good D1 program so why should his parents pay his way the final two years at GU?
So as I pointed out earlier it means we are more likely dealing with a scenario of two scholarships opening up following next season. That number comes down to one available because of the early commitment of Tyler. So, yeah, there is a numbers crunch. The attitude to be so blasé about scholarship availabilities is, no offense, a stupid one. In my opinion at least. It would mean not being in a firm position to both offer recruits and accept early commitments by them before the season even begins. The program can have four targets wanting to sign on immediately and yet the staff will have to wait for the season to finish unfolding and see who may leave for the NBA or simply transfer after the season is over. And who do we expect to transfer or even want to transfer? Tre and Trey will have only have one season left of hoops if they decide to transfer after next season. The same for Paul. Why would they by that point transfer just to sit out a year and then play one more season of hoops at a different university far away from the friends they made at Georgetown? Who is left? Johnson? Moseley after one season? The juco guard? He’ll only have one more year left too which means by that point he won’t likely be looking to go anywhere else either.
So we may be left with hoping Peak and Copeland have such god seasons that they can depart for the NBA. That would be good for the program’s rep to future recruits if the two of them are good enough to get drafted but hoping for this would also mean hoping for arguably our two most talented guys to leave early. And I’m personally fine with that but I hope the team has a successful enough season that no one could begrudge them for that decision.
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hoyazeke
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Post by hoyazeke on May 19, 2016 11:52:26 GMT -5
I know we can't assume but you are being a little naive if you think there is a chance LJ is back for his senior year. He at the minimum will test his worth after next year. LJ is the type of athlete that will kill the combine test. All he has to do is be above average during the scrimmages and scouts will have him at least at the end of the first....
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2016 11:58:34 GMT -5
This is a non-story to me... So many things can and will happen between now and then. If the kid is talented and wants to come you take him...
We've had many many conversations about this over the years, when has it ever been a factor?
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on May 19, 2016 12:04:19 GMT -5
I know we can't assume but you are being a little naive if you think there is a chance LJ is back for his senior year. He at the minimum will test his worth after next year. LJ is the type of athlete that will kill the combine test. All he has to do is be above average during the scrimmages and scouts will have him at least at the end of the first.... Heaven knows I think very highly of Peak and not only expect him to leave but hope he is also in a great position to do so. However God forbids he has a major injury, the N B A draft suddenly is no longer an option, and he expects a scholarship to still be waiting on him for a fourth year.
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on May 19, 2016 12:15:42 GMT -5
This is a non-story to me... So many things can and will happen between now and then. If the kid is talented and wants to come you take him... We've had many many conversations about this over the years, when has it ever been a factor? Yeah, it's easy for it to be a non-issue for me or you. We aren't the coach making promises to players, recruits and parents. And to be blunt it has never been a real issue for us only because III has mostly struck out in bringing in large groups of highly ranked recruits whom he has targeted early. And maybe that will be the solution again this time, HT fans penciling in a great recruit class that never materializes.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2016 12:39:53 GMT -5
This is a non-story to me... So many things can and will happen between now and then. If the kid is talented and wants to come you take him... We've had many many conversations about this over the years, when has it ever been a factor? Yeah, it's easy for it to be a non-issue for me or you. We aren't the coach making promises to players, recruits and parents. And to be blunt it has never been a real issue for us only because III has mostly struck out in bringing in large groups of highly ranked recruits whom he has targeted early. And maybe that will be the solution again this time, HT fans penciling in a great recruit class that never materializes. Unless your Kentucky or Duke majority of schools strike out on large groups of highly ranked recruits. That's just reality.. You have Picker schools like Duke Kentucky Kansas and then you have everyone else. My point still stands in 11 years of coaching at Gtown it's never been a factor so not going to stress it too much..
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BigmanU
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Post by BigmanU on May 19, 2016 12:45:07 GMT -5
Don't forget about the "new sensation sweeping the nation", Grad transfers. The rising Juniors not getting enough time may choose this route after this upcoming season. I'm pretty sure with all the summer school classes taken, most could potentially graduate next Spring. I hope however everyone stays where they started.
This is really a non issue. It always works itself out. Never had an issue in the past.
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on May 19, 2016 14:30:22 GMT -5
With all due respect it has only worked out because we have missed out on most if not all of the top tier recruits folks here end up salivating over. Not for any other reason. But prove me wrong and show me one instance in which it worked out because of a number of transfers and/or dudes entering the NBA draft. And, no, I'm not talking about the Otto Porter or Greg Whittington scenarios because those were both guys whom III and his staff did not start to target until after the basketball season began and just maybe they were getting a more clear picture of who would be around the following season. I'm instead referring to the times we have had these conversations about top tier recruits the Hoyas were targeting in the spring and summer BEFORE the final high school season of those recruits. Does anyone have one example in which the team was able to bring in a good number of their early-targeted and most wanted targeted recruits despite at the time not having nearly enough slotted openings for those recruits?
And as much as I get on III I respect the man's fairness and I don't see him as an irresponsible or shady coach who would accept the early signings of three or four stud players without having complete assurances that there will be scholarship room for them or the players that are already on the team apparently being recruited over. I don't think III can accept verbals and early signings despite being a few players over the cap and brushing it ff with a "it'll work itself out." I don't think that's his style. But maybe you guys disagree.
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