Highsmith
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,490
|
Post by Highsmith on Jan 24, 2017 9:15:21 GMT -5
If 2013 was the result for perpetuity, JT III should have a job at GU for as long as he wants. 2014 in no way was some terrible failure. It was disappointing to miss the NCAAs narrowly, but the team was competitive. 2015 was a good team that was not overrated by the selection committee. Who cares if they were a four or five seed- very solid. So, from my perspective, there is no terrible or long-term negative trend. That is why I have said 2020 is my threshold. If things continue in this manner until then, I would be convinced of a really bad trend that needs to end. I understand and respect that people have different takes on the subjective issue of what is a trend and how much patience is appropriate. I believe in loyalty and long-term perspectives and assume in many aspects of life that there will be short-term pain associated with that outlook. So you are willing to let a team that was at one time one of the most storied programs in the country to suffer through 5 straight losing seasons before thinking about making a change? Wow. For those of us that watch the games, we have seen ugliness for a lot longer than these past two seasons. JTIII's teams have gotten worse and worse on the court since his original success. I've hashed through each season and how we have a general downward trend since Jeff and Roy left in other threads/posts.....I really don't feel like hashing through it again. However, the bottom line is that even if our record has been up and down through the past number of years, the PERCEPTION of the program has been all down. Post-season failures, increased transfers, low APR, incomprehensible losses to mid-majors or worse, other coaches and players questioning our toughness and effort, announcers who are left nearly speechless by our lack of effort on the boards or general lack of readiness, inability to beat any BE team other than maybe St Johns or DePaul, likely a losing record 2 years running, and the list goes on. The one positive is we've been able to avoid any scandals/violations. Well goody for us! We were a program that was on the level of the blue bloods in the 1980's and early 90's. We took a big dip and I give great credit to JTIII for bringing us back above water for a short time. Since then, however, the perception of this program has dropped right through the floor. Things that are well run don't do that. JTIII gets credit for bringing us back.....he needs to take the blame from bringing us right back down again. The longer we wait, the lower the perception goes....not just among fans and the media, but among potential recruits. The damage is being done and we shouldn't wait much longer to try and fix it. |
|
|
|
Post by FrazierFanatic on Jan 24, 2017 9:28:13 GMT -5
If we have four more years anything like this one, there may just two posters left on this Board, as well as irreparable damage to the Georgetown basketball brand. There will be at least 3 of us! |
|
|
|
Post by practice on Jan 24, 2017 9:35:13 GMT -5
If 2013 was the result for perpetuity, JT III should have a job at GU for as long as he wants. 2014 in no way was some terrible failure. It was disappointing to miss the NCAAs narrowly, but the team was competitive. 2015 was a good team that was not overrated by the selection committee. Who cares if they were a four or five seed- very solid. So, from my perspective, there is no terrible or long-term negative trend. That is why I have said 2020 is my threshold. If things continue in this manner until then, I would be convinced of a really bad trend that needs to end. I understand and respect that people have different takes on the subjective issue of what is a trend and how much patience is appropriate. I believe in loyalty and long-term perspectives and assume in many aspects of life that there will be short-term pain associated with that outlook. Can I get a little of what this guy is smoking? Going to games would be much less painful. |
|
deacon
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,850
|
Post by deacon on Jan 24, 2017 9:50:30 GMT -5
We haven't advanced to the second weekend of the tournament since the Bush administration but again ... nothing to see here, move along.
*hands up*
What's funny is, I'm around area coaches/players on a daily basis and I used to defend our coach like he was a family member. Now, how do you defend the indefensible? Our rep locally is at a level I'd never thought I'd see. I was at a banquet last night and the topic of our program came up at our table and kids in the '19 and '20 classes who are multi-sport athletes and two of whom are no doubt BE-caliber players just laugh at the mere thought of Georgetown but this has become the norm. I even hate relaying stuff like that because of how much it stings but it is what it is and we actually have people willing to put up with minimally three more years of this?!?!
|
|
beenaround
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,476 
|
Post by beenaround on Jan 24, 2017 9:59:25 GMT -5
We haven't advanced to the second weekend of the tournament since the Bush administration but again ... nothing to see here, move along. *hands up* What's funny is, I'm around area coaches/players on a daily basis and I used to defend our coach like he was a family member. Now, how do you defend the indefensible? Our rep locally is at a level I'd never thought I'd see. I was at a banquet last night and the topic of our program came up at our table and kids in the '19 and '20 classes who are multi-sport athletes and two of whom are no doubt BE-caliber players just laugh at the mere thought of Georgetown but this has become the norm. I even hate relaying stuff like that because of how much it stings but it is what it is and we actually have people willing to put up with minimally three more years of this?!?! Wow...this is scary stuff to hear, but not surprising. Guess that explains why no highly rated local guys want to come here right now. |
|
|
|
Post by williambraskyiii on Jan 24, 2017 10:12:38 GMT -5
We haven't advanced to the second weekend of the tournament since the Bush administration but again ... nothing to see here, move along. *hands up* What's funny is, I'm around area coaches/players on a daily basis and I used to defend our coach like he was a family member. Now, how do you defend the indefensible? Our rep locally is at a level I'd never thought I'd see. I was at a banquet last night and the topic of our program came up at our table and kids in the '19 and '20 classes who are multi-sport athletes and two of whom are no doubt BE-caliber players just laugh at the mere thought of Georgetown but this has become the norm. I even hate relaying stuff like that because of how much it stings but it is what it is and we actually have people willing to put up with minimally three more years of this?!?! This is also why I laugh when people mention all the Power 5 offers JTIII would field if he left Georgetown. Our program is nearing "joke" status and the masses ridicule JTIII's predictable offense. I mean, we get straight clowned by our conference mates, publicly! Now, our commitment to defense has left the building. We have to watch this putridity because he is a Thompson, but no other high major program would consciously want to put this product on the court. I truly think JTIII wouldn't have any offers in Power 5 conferences, or even the next step down, e.g., A-10. At best, he'd head back to Ivy or try to redeem himself in CAA-level conference. A few people here really have this deluded sense of the program's standing in college basketball, maybe because of our past successes....that means exactly zero to today's high schoolers. Winning matters. Putting kids in NBA matters. Shiny things on campus matter. Probably in that order. I don't want to overstate the case on ostriches on this board with their heads buried. Its really only one or two folks and, with regard to hoyaloveforever, he's clearly a far outlier whose zany comments don't really merit response. I've tuned out. Will be routing my gu donations elsewhere. can't support this program in its current state. |
|
|
|
Post by hoyalove4ever on Jan 24, 2017 10:17:13 GMT -5
If 2013 was the result for perpetuity, JT III should have a job at GU for as long as he wants. 2014 in no way was some terrible failure. It was disappointing to miss the NCAAs narrowly, but the team was competitive. 2015 was a good team that was not overrated by the selection committee. Who cares if they were a four or five seed- very solid. So, from my perspective, there is no terrible or long-term negative trend. That is why I have said 2020 is my threshold. If things continue in this manner until then, I would be convinced of a really bad trend that needs to end. I understand and respect that people have different takes on the subjective issue of what is a trend and how much patience is appropriate. I believe in loyalty and long-term perspectives and assume in many aspects of life that there will be short-term pain associated with that outlook. So you are willing to let a team that was at one time one of the most storied programs in the country to suffer through 5 straight losing seasons before thinking about making a change? Wow. For those of us that watch the games, we have seen ugliness for a lot longer than these past two seasons. JTIII's teams have gotten worse and worse on the court since his original success. I've hashed through each season and how we have a general downward trend since Jeff and Roy left in other threads/posts.....I really don't feel like hashing through it again. However, the bottom line is that even if our record has been up and down through the past number of years, the PERCEPTION of the program has been all down. Post-season failures, increased transfers, low APR, incomprehensible losses to mid-majors or worse, other coaches and players questioning our toughness and effort, announcers who are left nearly speechless by our lack of effort on the boards or general lack of readiness, inability to beat any BE team other than maybe St Johns or DePaul, likely a losing record 2 years running, and the list goes on. The one positive is we've been able to avoid any scandals/violations. Well goody for us! We were a program that was on the level of the blue bloods in the 1980's and early 90's. We took a big dip and I give great credit to JTIII for bringing us back above water for a short time. Since then, however, the perception of this program has dropped right through the floor. Things that are well run don't do that. JTIII gets credit for bringing us back.....he needs to take the blame from bringing us right back down again. The longer we wait, the lower the perception goes....not just among fans and the media, but among potential recruits. The damage is being done and we shouldn't wait much longer to try and fix it. Five years seems to sound like a long time to you...to me, it seems more like five minutes. It is a matter of perspective. |
|
hoyarad
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
Posts: 521
|
Post by hoyarad on Jan 24, 2017 10:25:29 GMT -5
If 2013 was the result for perpetuity, JT III should have a job at GU for as long as he wants. 2014 in no way was some terrible failure. It was disappointing to miss the NCAAs narrowly, but the team was competitive. 2015 was a good team that was not overrated by the selection committee. Who cares if they were a four or five seed- very solid. So, from my perspective, there is no terrible or long-term negative trend. That is why I have said 2020 is my threshold. If things continue in this manner until then, I would be convinced of a really bad trend that needs to end. I understand and respect that people have different takes on the subjective issue of what is a trend and how much patience is appropriate. I believe in loyalty and long-term perspectives and assume in many aspects of life that there will be short-term pain associated with that outlook. Can I get a little of what this guy is smoking? Going to games would be much less painful. Why go the games? The results don't matter in that world! |
|
EtomicB
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 15,399
Member is Online
|
Post by EtomicB on Jan 24, 2017 10:58:18 GMT -5
I'm not calling for JT3 to be let go but please stop with this seeding nonsense, this is the only place I ever hear seeding talked about as an accomplishment.. Not to mention that most folks on the board freely admit that the 2014-15 team was way over seeded.. 2013 - Great season, terrible ending 2014 - Miss the tourney 2015 - Solid season 2016 - Miss Tourney 2017 - Miss Tourney Not a good look... I will tell you exactly why the seeding is relevant. The seeding is relevant because it shows that JT3 put together very, very good regular seasons. The single thing you can do to get to tournament success is getting a high seed into the tournament. Let's say you could guarantee that in the next 12 years, JT3 would get us into the tournament 8 times, with the same seeds we had in the past. Would you take that deal? I certainly would because it would mean we had great seasons and had great chances at success in the post-season. Now, it didn't work that way after 2007 for the most part, but I am confident if JT3 got us to the tournament with the same frequency and seeds that we would have significant post-season success. If JT3 cannot get it done in the future, then I agree it would be time to move on. But, I am not convinced that's the case at the moment - though clearly things are not good and need to improve or it's just not going to work. Making the tournament is what matters most, next in line is winning the conference or BET, next would be winning a pre season tourney, next for me would be beating rivals, way down the line is seeding results.. Tell us what the team did during the regular season, not what seed they were given.. I don't care about seeding to be honest, I want as easy a bracket as possible, that's what helps to ensure wins in the tournament.. Wichita St. was a 1 seed a few years back with UK looming as a 2nd round opponent, who thinks that they wouldn't have taken a lower seed for an easier path? Put it this way if I came on the board after the tourney selection was over complaining that JT3 couldn't get the team a higher seed folks would laugh me off the board.. Seeding for the most part is arbitrary IMO.. |
|
|
|
Post by hoyalove4ever on Jan 24, 2017 10:59:14 GMT -5
The results matter- but fans should support the team regardless of the results. I think being a fan is unconditional. Obviously, some people disagree with that point of view- as is their right. I am just calling it as I see it.
|
|
EtomicB
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 15,399
Member is Online
|
Post by EtomicB on Jan 24, 2017 11:02:15 GMT -5
The results matter- but fans should support the team regardless of the results. I think being a fan is unconditional. Obviously, some people disagree with that point of view- as is their right. I am just calling it as I see it. Folks can support the program without supporting the coach or administration.. |
|
bostonfan
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 2,537
|
Post by bostonfan on Jan 24, 2017 11:10:53 GMT -5
The scary thing is that this continued poor performance makes recruiting really difficult. Why would high level players, with many different options, decide to come to Georgetown at this point? For years the answers were easy. Historically strong program, great competition in a great conference, lots of TV exposure, history of sending players to the NBA, great city and great academic institution. It is still a great city and a great academic institution, but unfortunately those are not usually on the top of most recruits lists of important factors. Sure we do still play great competition in a strong conference, but those elements lose their appeal when we are getting beat by that competition as often as we are. Being on TV helps but not when you are always losing those big national TV games!! It must be pretty easy now for opposing coaches to do some negative recruiting against Georgetown and with the rumors of JTIII status at the school starting to get louder it is going to be a being problem until things start changing.
I had thought early on that the success of Rodney Pryor would help attract more 5th year transfers, but those players not only want the opportunity and exposure, but a real chance to compete in NCAA tournament in their last year. That attraction is going tone pretty hard to sell after the last two years!!!
I don't think there is an easy solution, but something needs to change or the program will continue to spiral downward.
|
|
NCHoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 2,927
|
Post by NCHoya on Jan 24, 2017 11:12:30 GMT -5
I fully support the players, but they are being failed miserably by the head coach and his staff. Individually and collectively, they are not improving during the season or year over year.
I have already decided to revoke my monetary support from the program, including propping up prices on the secondary market by puchasing tickets locally near NYC. I am done with this coach. When you have students (known for being disengaged) chanting to fire the coach, it should be an easy decision for the administration, but we all know this situation is the exception to all common sense.
|
|
bostonfan
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 2,537
|
Post by bostonfan on Jan 24, 2017 11:21:04 GMT -5
The results matter- but fans should support the team regardless of the results. I think being a fan is unconditional. Obviously, some people disagree with that point of view- as is their right. I am just calling it as I see it. I agree that long time fans should continue to support the program even as the results are not there. It is frustrating for those fans but if you supported them when they were riding high, then you need to absorb some of the bad times. It doesn't mean those fans can not be critical of things, but they should still support the program. Where the results really hurt are with the current students. These students come from all over the country, and the world, and in most cases did not grow up as Georgetown fans so they don't have that history of success to fall back on. They only see what is happening now and decide if the team is worthy of their support on how they perform. The other thing with the students at Georgetown is that the vast majority of the kids are high achieving students and have performed at high levels in whatever they have done growing up and that is their expectation of things that they associate themselves with. They are not going to take their time to support a bad team simply because it wears the shirt with their school name on it. There are plenty of other things at Georgetown where these kids can devote their time to and if the basketball program wants their support, they need to give them a good reason to get behind them. |
|
guru
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 6,666
|
Post by guru on Jan 24, 2017 11:22:00 GMT -5
I fully support the players, but they are being failed miserably by the head coach and his staff. Individually and collectively, they are not improving during the season or year over year. I have already decided to revoke my monetary support from the program, including propping up prices on the secondary market by puchasing tickets locally near NYC. I am done with this coach. When you have students (known for being disengaged) chanting to fire the coach, it should be an easy decision for the administration, but we all know this situation is the exception to all common sense. Anyone who is fed up with the current state of the program needs to pull any financial support now. Not tomorrow. Not next week. Now. My advice would be to route the money toward other Georgetown programs, but that's up to you. And let the AD and administration know exactly why you are cutting off support to the men's basketball program. It's not going to change anything, but demonstrations matter. |
|
guru
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 6,666
|
Post by guru on Jan 24, 2017 11:23:52 GMT -5
Billy Garrett Jr. is an excellent point guard that plays for a losing team. My fear is that Tremont Waters may suffer the same fate. I've had this exact thought. How many times during our years as a relevant program would we play a conference bottom feeder who had one great player, but the poor guy was surrounded by stiffs and let down by the coaching staff? Ladies and gentlemen, we are now that bottom feeder. |
|
|
|
Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Jan 24, 2017 11:28:49 GMT -5
I agree that long time fans should continue to support the program even as the results are not there. It is frustrating for those fans but if you supported them when they were riding high, then you need to absorb some of the bad times. It doesn't mean those fans can not be critical of things, but they should still support the program. Where the results really hurt are with the current students. These students come from all over the country, and the world, and in most cases did not grow up as Georgetown fans so they don't have that history of success to fall back on. They only see what is happening now and decide if the team is worthy of their support on how they perform. The other thing with the students at Georgetown is that the vast majority of the kids are high achieving students and have performed at high levels in whatever they have done growing up and that is their expectation of things that they associate themselves with. They are not going to take their time to support a bad team simply because it wears the shirt with their school name on it. There are plenty of other things at Georgetown where these kids can devote their time to and if the basketball program wants their support, they need to give them a good reason to get behind them. My entire four years as a student coincided with Esherick being the coach, and there was little enthusiasm for basketball on campus, except for the short-lived Sweet 16 in 2001. The majority of Georgetown students are there for academics and could not care less about basketball. That was true when I was a student, and I am pretty confident it's true now too. Yes, when we win more students will take the time to attend a game (after all, why not, if you can post a selfie on social media showing you are there), but overall most students don't care one way or another. And, in today's day and age, that's probably even more true now than it was when I was a student. I really think people over-sell the "woe is Georgetown" argument that thinks our program is in a horrible spot and our brand damages forever. Winning easily would fix that (as it did in the mid-2000s) whether it's under John Thompson III in the future or someone else. I really am not concerned about excitement - it will return if we improve. The fact is, regardless of who is the coach - be it John Thompson III or some replacement - there are going to be down years and down periods of Georgetown basketball. This happened during the reign of John Thompson Jr., and except for the highest blue bloods, most programs experience down periods. Thus, there are going to be times when students get "unlucky" and have to be students when the team stinks. Obviously, you prefer otherwise, but it is what it is. |
|
seaweed
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 4,736
|
Post by seaweed on Jan 24, 2017 13:01:19 GMT -5
|
|
the_way
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
The Illest
Posts: 5,422
|
Post by the_way on Jan 24, 2017 13:01:43 GMT -5
Life isn't that serious.
It is just basketball.
It is not the end of the world because our basketball program is struggling right now. III was in the tournament 2 years ago.
We've a hit a few roadblocks and folks want to jump ship? Financially, it is understandable because people work hard for their money.
Things will get better. But it is your team and/or your school. You can't bail out now. If you don't like the coach, think about the players. At least support them. They need all the help they can get right now. They are not the direct cause of the problems. They want to win as bad you want to win.
|
|
|
|
Post by FrazierFanatic on Jan 24, 2017 13:08:04 GMT -5
Well - the players are PART of the cause - those bad shots, silly fouls and sloppy turnovers don't commit themselves!
But you are right, they hurt more than we do when they lose, and they deserve our support. Even those who are worn down by the losses, and pound the drum for a change at the top, are Hoya fans or they would not spend their time here.
|
|
