JT III Coaching Discussion

[guru]

Jan 23, 2017 13:55:46 GMT -5 hoyalove4ever said:

Jan 23, 2017 13:11:20 GMT -5 guru said:

What in the world? I pay thousands of dollars for season tickets. The coach is making millions coaching this team. It IS a business. Do you really not see this?

Not at all- we are in two different universes if you see it as a business.

We also are in two different universes if you are happier with the experience of being a Hoya fan if we are 30-3 as opposed to 3-30. Do not get me wrong- I will take the 30-3 any day, but I am just as happy and proud both ways.

If you see it that way and really are dissatisfied, I think the play is to vote with your feet and stop the financial support. You should not support something voluntarily if you do not like the way it is being run, and I have the utmost respect for that.

Believe me, this season was it for me. I held on as long as I could. There are far better ways to spend the money I have been donating to this lost cause and spending on season tickets. The moment we have a new coach, I'm back on board as a season ticket holder. I know - I may be away a long time.

[SDHoya]

Not a violation per se, but there was this: www.nytimes.com/2007/03/30/sports/ncaabasketball/30georgetown.html

[GUJook97]

Jan 23, 2017 15:05:09 GMT -5 hoyalove4ever said:

Jan 23, 2017 14:47:02 GMT -5 GUJook97 said:

What makes you even say that it's well run? We've had several transfers the last few years, scholarship players that ride the pine almost exclusively, and we were all but forced to pick up a 5th year player like Pryor for this year. Pryor is basically a hired gun to win games. Im not saying that is wrong, Im just curious as to what you are pointing to when you say it's well run - that we dont have any serious violations? That's not exactly a great bar.

Serious violations? Have GU basketball ever had ANY violations? Serious allegations of impropriety regarding recruiting or otherwise?

So, does that mean you are measuring it by violations? Im just asking you what is your measure of well run since you said you would be okay with 3-30 as long as it is well run.

[guru]

Jan 23, 2017 15:05:09 GMT -5 hoyalove4ever said:

Jan 23, 2017 14:47:02 GMT -5 GUJook97 said:

What makes you even say that it's well run? We've had several transfers the last few years, scholarship players that ride the pine almost exclusively, and we were all but forced to pick up a 5th year player like Pryor for this year. Pryor is basically a hired gun to win games. Im not saying that is wrong, Im just curious as to what you are pointing to when you say it's well run - that we dont have any serious violations? That's not exactly a great bar.

Serious violations? Have GU basketball ever had ANY violations? Serious allegations of impropriety regarding recruiting or otherwise?

Allegations, all.

Edited. Avoid speculation on former players. --Admin

Even JT3 has been nicked for minor violations, as absurd as some of them have been. He has had academic casualties, whispers of behavioral issues (see Sapp, Summers, fist in face) and has overseen a dip in our APR rating to where it currently sits at second to the bottom of the new Big East, and lower than programs like UConn, Syracuse and Maryland, whom we routinely mock as cheaters and academic frauds.

Well run? Tell us how, exactly.

[hoyalove4ever]

Well-run because:

1) Zero actual scandals or violations. The example of bad conduct is one fight between players? How many guys have been arrested or otherwise embarrassed the school while enrolled since 2004, or for that matter since 1972? It is an amazingly low number and a testament to institutional leadership.

2) The APR numbers are related to transfers. The players who stay take real classes and are on track to graduate. That is a big deal to me.

3) Over the long term, the basketball program has been successful- NCAAs, league titles, etc. I refuse to substitute a two-year window for over a decade of information.

[guru]

Jan 23, 2017 16:15:35 GMT -5 hoyalove4ever said:

Well-run because:

1) Zero actual scandals or violations. The example of bad conduct is one fight between players? How many guys have been arrested or otherwise embarrassed the school while enrolled since 2004, or for that matter since 1972? It is an amazingly low number and a testament to institutional leadership.

2) The APR numbers are related to transfers. The players who stay take real classes and are on track to graduate. That is a big deal to me.

3) Over the long term, the basketball program has been successful- NCAAs, league titles, etc. I refuse to substitute a two-year window for over a decade of information.

1) Point granted. My examples were admittedly stretches. This is the best selling point for those defending JT3 at this point. Unfortunately, the job is about more than just this. But I'll give you this one.

2) Transfers are a problem. Players who leave without graduating - Josh Smith, Hollis Thompson to name just two - have also contributed to an embarrassingly low APR number for a program whose defenders fall back on "doing things the right way." It is disingenuous to simply write off this statistic without consideration, and doing so further weakens your position.

3) This is not a two-year window. The past 4 seasons have been far more bad than good; the last 2 have been heinous. And we haven't played in the second weekend of the NCAA Tournament in 9 seasons, including our current disastrous one.

[beenaround]

In addition to being Hoyas, and being diehard fans who want a winning hoops program, there is something else missing for those of us who also really enjoy watching good basketball. Our team has been unwatchable for the past couple of years. It is literally painful on the eyeballs. This is above and beyond the wins and losses. Despite what Hoyalover may say, the product on the floor is, in theory, entertainment for the fans who pay JtIIIs salary. This program is in my blood..but it is so hard to watch these games.

[hoyasaxa2003]

Jan 23, 2017 14:40:21 GMT -5 TBird41 said:

Also, the school being willing to accept mediocre to bad seasons year after year shows that the school doesn't care about maintaining the legacy and reputation of Georgetown basketball, one of its flagship programs, which is a disservice to the Thompsons and all of the players who built a program that did things the right way, educated its players and won basketball games. It's also a disservice to all of the people around the program who put in time and effort to make Georgetown basketball better.  No one would would say the law school is well run if it started sliding in the law school rankings. Not sure why you wouldn't hold the basketball team to the same standard.

I agree with you that if the school accepted mediocre to bad seasons year-after-year that that might show the school doesn't care about maintaining its legacy or doesn't care about the on-court product. I don't think there are many people who would be fine with continuous failure year after year on the court (except maybe hoyalove4ever - no knock against you, just saying).

The bigger issue is not is it okay (it's not), but at what point do you make a change? eagle54 has been very clear in stating that he thought that time came in 2013. Others have come to that conclusion more recently, whereas others think JT3 deserves a bit more time.

It's really a matter of how long do you give somebody, who has been successful in the past, to show that he can right the ship? The efforts to portray Georgetown in a horrible long downward spiral are often filled with hyperbole. We were a 4 seed TWO SEASONS AGO. Generally, programs that are in huge downward spirals miss the NCAAs for several seasons in a row. That's not us at this point.

Now, I am not saying you let a coach be horrible for a long time. But, I think it's fair to acknowledge that just two years ago we were in the NCAAs with a good seed (and many times before that), so maybe we do give the coach some time to figure things out. That's obviously not the popular opinion on HoyaTalk, but I think it's a reasonable one, even if some disagree.

[EtomicB]

Jan 23, 2017 17:00:26 GMT -5 hoyasaxa2003 said:

Jan 23, 2017 14:40:21 GMT -5 TBird41 said:

Also, the school being willing to accept mediocre to bad seasons year after year shows that the school doesn't care about maintaining the legacy and reputation of Georgetown basketball, one of its flagship programs, which is a disservice to the Thompsons and all of the players who built a program that did things the right way, educated its players and won basketball games. It's also a disservice to all of the people around the program who put in time and effort to make Georgetown basketball better.  No one would would say the law school is well run if it started sliding in the law school rankings. Not sure why you wouldn't hold the basketball team to the same standard.

I agree with you that if the school accepted mediocre to bad seasons year-after-year that that might show the school doesn't care about maintaining its legacy or doesn't care about the on-court product. I don't think there are many people who would be fine with continuous failure year after year on the court (except maybe hoyalove4ever - no knock against you, just saying).

The bigger issue is not is it okay (it's not), but at what point do you make a change? eagle54 has been very clear in stating that he thought that time came in 2013. Others have come to that conclusion more recently, whereas others think JT3 deserves a bit more time.

It's really a matter of how long do you give somebody, who has been successful in the past, to show that he can right the ship? The efforts to portray Georgetown in a horrible long downward spiral are often filled with hyperbole. We were a 4 seed TWO SEASONS AGO. Generally, programs that are in huge downward spirals miss the NCAAs for several seasons in a row. That's not us at this point.

Now, I am not saying you let a coach be horrible for a long time. But, I think it's fair to acknowledge that just two years ago we were in the NCAAs with a good seed (and many times before that), so maybe we do give the coach some time to figure things out. That's obviously not the popular opinion on HoyaTalk, but I think it's a reasonable one, even if some disagree.

I'm not calling for JT3 to be let go but please stop with this seeding nonsense, this is the only place I ever hear seeding talked about as an accomplishment..

Not to mention that most folks on the board freely admit that the 2014-15 team was way over seeded..


2013 - Great season, terrible ending
2014 - Miss the tourney
2015 - Solid season
2016 - Miss Tourney
2017 - Miss Tourney

Not a good look...

[bamahoya11]

Jan 23, 2017 17:00:26 GMT -5 hoyasaxa2003 said:

Jan 23, 2017 14:40:21 GMT -5 TBird41 said:

Also, the school being willing to accept mediocre to bad seasons year after year shows that the school doesn't care about maintaining the legacy and reputation of Georgetown basketball, one of its flagship programs, which is a disservice to the Thompsons and all of the players who built a program that did things the right way, educated its players and won basketball games. It's also a disservice to all of the people around the program who put in time and effort to make Georgetown basketball better.  No one would would say the law school is well run if it started sliding in the law school rankings. Not sure why you wouldn't hold the basketball team to the same standard.

I agree with you that if the school accepted mediocre to bad seasons year-after-year that that might show the school doesn't care about maintaining its legacy or doesn't care about the on-court product. I don't think there are many people who would be fine with continuous failure year after year on the court (except maybe hoyalove4ever - no knock against you, just saying).

The bigger issue is not is it okay (it's not), but at what point do you make a change? eagle54 has been very clear in stating that he thought that time came in 2013. Others have come to that conclusion more recently, whereas others think JT3 deserves a bit more time.

It's really a matter of how long do you give somebody, who has been successful in the past, to show that he can right the ship? The efforts to portray Georgetown in a horrible long downward spiral are often filled with hyperbole. We were a 4 seed TWO SEASONS AGO. Generally, programs that are in huge downward spirals miss the NCAAs for several seasons in a row. That's not us at this point.

Now, I am not saying you let a coach be horrible for a long time. But, I think it's fair to acknowledge that just two years ago we were in the NCAAs with a good seed (and many times before that), so maybe we do give the coach some time to figure things out. That's obviously not the popular opinion on HoyaTalk, but I think it's a reasonable one, even if some disagree.

I don't find your position unreasonable, though, at this point, I disagree with it.  I will ask a question, though -- on what basis do you believe that JTIII is the person who is going to turn the program around?  Is it strictly that he has earned the chance to based on his past successes as a coach (Final Four, Big East titles, etc.)?  Has he said or done anything this season or last that makes you think that he will figure this out?

My problem right now is that JTIII seems as lost as anyone when it comes to solving the problems we currently have.  Listening to him before the season, it was clear that he thought he had this figured out.  Talking to the fans before the season, he explained it all.  We were slow last year, but we recruited and built a team in the off season to run.  We struggled on defense last year, and we were going to run a better defense this year.  It seemed like he thought we might have a few struggles early, but he never anticipated anything close to what we've done this year.  I also listen to his pre- and post-game comments before and after pretty much every game the media posts.  And I don't get any sense that there is some master plan, that these are some "growing pains" at the end of which there will be some rewards.

Perhaps I'm wrong, but I don't see a coach with a plan to get the program back together.  I see someone who is desperately throwing things at the wall to see if something might stick.  I'd be open to keeping a Final Four coach who could say, "Here's how we got to the Final Four, here's why we got off track, here's what we're doing to get back on track."  If I heard that, I'd be open to giving him some time to execute the plan.  I just don't think I'm hearing that from the staff right now.  

[calhoya]

Jan 23, 2017 17:00:26 GMT -5 hoyasaxa2003 said:

Jan 23, 2017 14:40:21 GMT -5 TBird41 said:

Also, the school being willing to accept mediocre to bad seasons year after year shows that the school doesn't care about maintaining the legacy and reputation of Georgetown basketball, one of its flagship programs, which is a disservice to the Thompsons and all of the players who built a program that did things the right way, educated its players and won basketball games. It's also a disservice to all of the people around the program who put in time and effort to make Georgetown basketball better.  No one would would say the law school is well run if it started sliding in the law school rankings. Not sure why you wouldn't hold the basketball team to the same standard.

I agree with you that if the school accepted mediocre to bad seasons year-after-year that that might show the school doesn't care about maintaining its legacy or doesn't care about the on-court product. I don't think there are many people who would be fine with continuous failure year after year on the court (except maybe hoyalove4ever - no knock against you, just saying).

The bigger issue is not is it okay (it's not), but at what point do you make a change? eagle54 has been very clear in stating that he thought that time came in 2013. Others have come to that conclusion more recently, whereas others think JT3 deserves a bit more time.

It's really a matter of how long do you give somebody, who has been successful in the past, to show that he can right the ship? The efforts to portray Georgetown in a horrible long downward spiral are often filled with hyperbole. We were a 4 seed TWO SEASONS AGO. Generally, programs that are in huge downward spirals miss the NCAAs for several seasons in a row. That's not us at this point.

Now, I am not saying you let a coach be horrible for a long time. But, I think it's fair to acknowledge that just two years ago we were in the NCAAs with a good seed (and many times before that), so maybe we do give the coach some time to figure things out. That's obviously not the popular opinion on HoyaTalk, but I think it's a reasonable one, even if some disagree.

Very fair statement of the question for the school and each Hoya fan in evaluating the coach. I think more than the results of a particular season should be evaluated. The issue is not as simple as how the season played out or the final record, but rather what are the trends for the program. Three years ago there were injuries and academic casualties. I was happy to give JT III a pass for the poor performance. However, what bothered me was the recruitment of Smith, which I perceived to be a desperation move by the coach for a player who had neither the conditioning nor the motivation on or off the court to be a part of the program. The next year after finishing the season with a tournament appearance, he bolted the school and any semblance of academic commitment. My concerns began at that point in time and were as much about the direction of the program as the end of the season. Since that time more transfers from players that were highly recruited and highly touted. The on court results have been very poor. Close losses to good teams means that the team lacks composure, not talent. Similarly, when effort is questioned after a loss, that is a serious comment about the coach and his ability to run the team. Unlike many here, I believe that these kids are talented. I think that they are raw talents who are for whatever reason not developing. That is much more important than another losing season.

So for me the jury is still out on this coach, but barely. I give to the school regularly for what it has given to me and my son and will continue to do so until I see what the Administration says and does after this season. If there is no recognition of the downward spiral of the program and if there is more of the try harder, play harder mantra that we here after every loss, then it will be time for me to get off this sinking ship. Because I do believe that the basketball program is both a sport and a business that carries the banner of the school. I expect it to continue to generate revenues to offset other financial needs. If the school allows the program to lose money or fails to maximize its revenues, then I question why I should have to supplement that failure.

[the_way]

Jan 23, 2017 19:04:45 GMT -5 bamahoya11 said:

Jan 23, 2017 17:00:26 GMT -5 hoyasaxa2003 said:

I agree with you that if the school accepted mediocre to bad seasons year-after-year that that might show the school doesn't care about maintaining its legacy or doesn't care about the on-court product. I don't think there are many people who would be fine with continuous failure year after year on the court (except maybe hoyalove4ever - no knock against you, just saying).

The bigger issue is not is it okay (it's not), but at what point do you make a change? eagle54 has been very clear in stating that he thought that time came in 2013. Others have come to that conclusion more recently, whereas others think JT3 deserves a bit more time.

It's really a matter of how long do you give somebody, who has been successful in the past, to show that he can right the ship? The efforts to portray Georgetown in a horrible long downward spiral are often filled with hyperbole. We were a 4 seed TWO SEASONS AGO. Generally, programs that are in huge downward spirals miss the NCAAs for several seasons in a row. That's not us at this point.

Now, I am not saying you let a coach be horrible for a long time. But, I think it's fair to acknowledge that just two years ago we were in the NCAAs with a good seed (and many times before that), so maybe we do give the coach some time to figure things out. That's obviously not the popular opinion on HoyaTalk, but I think it's a reasonable one, even if some disagree.

I don't find your position unreasonable, though, at this point, I disagree with it.  I will ask a question, though -- on what basis do you believe that JTIII is the person who is going to turn the program around?  Is it strictly that he has earned the chance to based on his past successes as a coach (Final Four, Big East titles, etc.)?  Has he said or done anything this season or last that makes you think that he will figure this out?

My problem right now is that JTIII seems as lost as anyone when it comes to solving the problems we currently have.  Listening to him before the season, it was clear that he thought he had this figured out.  Talking to the fans before the season, he explained it all.  We were slow last year, but we recruited and built a team in the off season to run.  We struggled on defense last year, and we were going to run a better defense this year.  It seemed like he thought we might have a few struggles early, but he never anticipated anything close to what we've done this year.  I also listen to his pre- and post-game comments before and after pretty much every game the media posts.  And I don't get any sense that there is some master plan, that these are some "growing pains" at the end of which there will be some rewards.

Perhaps I'm wrong, but I don't see a coach with a plan to get the program back together.  I see someone who is desperately throwing things at the wall to see if something might stick.  I'd be open to keeping a Final Four coach who could say, "Here's how we got to the Final Four, here's why we got off track, here's what we're doing to get back on track."  If I heard that, I'd be open to giving him some time to execute the plan.  I just don't think I'm hearing that from the staff right now.  

You probably won't hear that from the staff. III is very close to the vest.

I hear what you are saying. Seeing is believing. And what we are seeing is what you stated in your 2nd paragraph.

I think people would feel more confident if the recruiting class looked better. We lose Pryor, maybe Peak next year.

We are pretty much the same team next year potentially without our best 2 scorers. And this team is flawed with those 2 guys.

Waters may be the real deal, but don't think he is Iverson. He is going to need some help.

Also, that still won't solve the defensive and rebounding issues were are having with this current group.

[deacon]

Jan 23, 2017 18:03:56 GMT -5 EtomicB said:

Jan 23, 2017 17:00:26 GMT -5 hoyasaxa2003 said:

I agree with you that if the school accepted mediocre to bad seasons year-after-year that that might show the school doesn't care about maintaining its legacy or doesn't care about the on-court product. I don't think there are many people who would be fine with continuous failure year after year on the court (except maybe hoyalove4ever - no knock against you, just saying).

The bigger issue is not is it okay (it's not), but at what point do you make a change? eagle54 has been very clear in stating that he thought that time came in 2013. Others have come to that conclusion more recently, whereas others think JT3 deserves a bit more time.

It's really a matter of how long do you give somebody, who has been successful in the past, to show that he can right the ship? The efforts to portray Georgetown in a horrible long downward spiral are often filled with hyperbole. We were a 4 seed TWO SEASONS AGO. Generally, programs that are in huge downward spirals miss the NCAAs for several seasons in a row. That's not us at this point.

Now, I am not saying you let a coach be horrible for a long time. But, I think it's fair to acknowledge that just two years ago we were in the NCAAs with a good seed (and many times before that), so maybe we do give the coach some time to figure things out. That's obviously not the popular opinion on HoyaTalk, but I think it's a reasonable one, even if some disagree.

I'm not calling for JT3 to be let go but please stop with this seeding nonsense, this is the only place I ever hear seeding talked about as an accomplishment..

Not to mention that most folks on the board freely admit that the 2014-15 team was way over seeded..


2013 - Great season, terrible ending
2014 - Miss the tourney
2015 - Solid season
2016 - Miss Tourney
2017 - Miss Tourney

Not a good look...

At all.

Villanova won a national title last year and we have people - amidst all of this losing - reaching back to how we were a No. 4 seed two years ago as if to say, "Why are you tripping?"

The lowering of the bar around here is mind boggling.

[bamahoya11]

Jan 23, 2017 19:48:06 GMT -5 the_way said:

Jan 23, 2017 19:04:45 GMT -5 bamahoya11 said:

I don't find your position unreasonable, though, at this point, I disagree with it.  I will ask a question, though -- on what basis do you believe that JTIII is the person who is going to turn the program around?  Is it strictly that he has earned the chance to based on his past successes as a coach (Final Four, Big East titles, etc.)?  Has he said or done anything this season or last that makes you think that he will figure this out?

My problem right now is that JTIII seems as lost as anyone when it comes to solving the problems we currently have.  Listening to him before the season, it was clear that he thought he had this figured out.  Talking to the fans before the season, he explained it all.  We were slow last year, but we recruited and built a team in the off season to run.  We struggled on defense last year, and we were going to run a better defense this year.  It seemed like he thought we might have a few struggles early, but he never anticipated anything close to what we've done this year.  I also listen to his pre- and post-game comments before and after pretty much every game the media posts.  And I don't get any sense that there is some master plan, that these are some "growing pains" at the end of which there will be some rewards.

Perhaps I'm wrong, but I don't see a coach with a plan to get the program back together.  I see someone who is desperately throwing things at the wall to see if something might stick.  I'd be open to keeping a Final Four coach who could say, "Here's how we got to the Final Four, here's why we got off track, here's what we're doing to get back on track."  If I heard that, I'd be open to giving him some time to execute the plan.  I just don't think I'm hearing that from the staff right now.  

You probably won't hear that from the staff. III is very close to the vest.

I hear what you are saying. Seeing is believing. And what we are seeing is what you stated in your 2nd paragraph.

I think people would feel more confident if the recruiting class looked better. We lose Pryor, maybe Peak next year.

We are pretty much the same team next year potentially without our best 2 scorers. And this team is flawed with those 2 guys.

Waters may be the real deal, but don't think he is Iverson. He is going to need some help.

Also, that still won't solve the defensive and rebounding issues were are having with this current group.

You're right -- I would feel better about our prospects if I saw some indication that there is a plan in place to figure it out.  For example, for those who have pointed to our talent issues, if I saw a clear recruiting strategy shift from the past, I'd be open to giving the new guys a chance.  I think getting Waters is a nice step, but it's not enough for me.  As you point out, he will need a supporting cast around him who can help us go.  If Peak stays, maybe we will have enough key players to fight our way into the NCAA tournament somehow.  I just don't really see it.  

A lot of the problems that you point out, too, lack of defense, poor rebounding, have been problems for years.  They were a problem several years ago when we made the tournament as a four seed.  The last time I really remember us playing good defense was in 2013.  Whatever we may say of him, JTIII plainly struggled to adapt to the new rules.  And I just don't see any indication that he's figuring it out.  I actually did earlier in the year.  We struggled on defense, but we were much more aggressive in driving to the basket and getting free throws.  As the season has gone on, though, we seem to revert to our old habits.  

I totally get the risks in firing JTIII.  And I don't think it's unreasonable to raise lots of questions before the school goes and fires a coach with a Final Four on his resume.  I firmly disagree with those who suggest that JTIII somehow happened into a Final Four.  You don't get that far by pure accident.  But I'm disheartened by what I've seen, and I just don't see JTIII stepping forward so far and convincing me that he's got this.  After taking a step up in non-conference play (9-4 this season), we've taken a big step back in conference play (1-6).  It's concerning that we seem so ill-prepared against teams that are familiar with what we do, and we don't seem to have any answers.  

[johnnysnowplow]

Jan 23, 2017 18:03:56 GMT -5 EtomicB said:

Jan 23, 2017 17:00:26 GMT -5 hoyasaxa2003 said:

I agree with you that if the school accepted mediocre to bad seasons year-after-year that that might show the school doesn't care about maintaining its legacy or doesn't care about the on-court product. I don't think there are many people who would be fine with continuous failure year after year on the court (except maybe hoyalove4ever - no knock against you, just saying).

The bigger issue is not is it okay (it's not), but at what point do you make a change? eagle54 has been very clear in stating that he thought that time came in 2013. Others have come to that conclusion more recently, whereas others think JT3 deserves a bit more time.

It's really a matter of how long do you give somebody, who has been successful in the past, to show that he can right the ship? The efforts to portray Georgetown in a horrible long downward spiral are often filled with hyperbole. We were a 4 seed TWO SEASONS AGO. Generally, programs that are in huge downward spirals miss the NCAAs for several seasons in a row. That's not us at this point.

Now, I am not saying you let a coach be horrible for a long time. But, I think it's fair to acknowledge that just two years ago we were in the NCAAs with a good seed (and many times before that), so maybe we do give the coach some time to figure things out. That's obviously not the popular opinion on HoyaTalk, but I think it's a reasonable one, even if some disagree.

I'm not calling for JT3 to be let go but please stop with this seeding nonsense, this is the only place I ever hear seeding talked about as an accomplishment..

Not to mention that most folks on the board freely admit that the 2014-15 team was way over seeded..


2013 - Great season, terrible ending
2014 - Miss the tourney
2015 - Solid season
2016 - Miss Tourney
2017 - Miss Tourney

Not a good look...

Not just missing the tourney. We're not even sniffing the tourney in 3 of the last 4 years. We're staring down the barrel of missing the motherloving NIT for the second straight year. The NIT! I defended JTIII for most of the last 4 seasons. I can't defend him anymore. Honestly, if not for the Waters commitment, I'd probably be picking up a torch and pitchfork myself. But I do believe this kid can help us turn a corner. I'm not saying he leads us out of these doldrums from day 1, but he's a big step in the right direction. Frankly, I'm pretty curious to see if JTIII can even properly utilize a kid like this, if he even knows how to coach a system that will maximize his potential. It's a fair question.

[guru]

Jan 23, 2017 15:44:30 GMT -5 guru said:

Jan 23, 2017 15:05:09 GMT -5 hoyalove4ever said:

Serious violations? Have GU basketball ever had ANY violations? Serious allegations of impropriety regarding recruiting or otherwise?

Allegations, all.

Edited. Avoid speculation on former players. --Admin

Even JT3 has been nicked for minor violations, as absurd as some of them have been. He has had academic casualties, whispers of behavioral issues (see Sapp, Summers, fist in face) and has overseen a dip in our APR rating to where it currently sits at second to the bottom of the new Big East, and lower than programs like UConn, Syracuse and Maryland, whom we routinely mock as cheaters and academic frauds.

Well run? Tell us how, exactly.

Understood. Sorry about that.

[Bigs"R"Us]

Billy Garrett Jr. is an excellent point guard that plays for a losing team. My fear is that Tremont Waters may suffer the same fate.

[hoyasaxa2003]

Jan 23, 2017 18:03:56 GMT -5 EtomicB said:

I'm not calling for JT3 to be let go but please stop with this seeding nonsense, this is the only place I ever hear seeding talked about as an accomplishment..

Not to mention that most folks on the board freely admit that the 2014-15 team was way over seeded..


2013 - Great season, terrible ending
2014 - Miss the tourney
2015 - Solid season
2016 - Miss Tourney
2017 - Miss Tourney

Not a good look...

I will tell you exactly why the seeding is relevant. The seeding is relevant because it shows that JT3 put together very, very good regular seasons. The single thing you can do to get to tournament success is getting a high seed into the tournament. Let's say you could guarantee that in the next 12 years, JT3 would get us into the tournament 8 times, with the same seeds we had in the past. Would you take that deal? I certainly would because it would mean we had great seasons and had great chances at success in the post-season. Now, it didn't work that way after 2007 for the most part, but I am confident if JT3 got us to the tournament with the same frequency and seeds that we would have significant post-season success.

If JT3 cannot get it done in the future, then I agree it would be time to move on. But, I am not convinced that's the case at the moment - though clearly things are not good and need to improve or it's just not going to work.

[hoyalove4ever]

If 2013 was the result for perpetuity, JT III should have a job at GU for as long as he wants.

2014 in no way was some terrible failure. It was disappointing to miss the NCAAs narrowly, but the team was competitive.

2015 was a good team that was not overrated by the selection committee. Who cares if they were a four or five seed- very solid.

So, from my perspective, there is no terrible or long-term negative trend. That is why I have said 2020 is my threshold. If things continue in this manner until then, I would be convinced of a really bad trend that needs to end.

I understand and respect that people have different takes on the subjective issue of what is a trend and how much patience is appropriate. I believe in loyalty and long-term perspectives and assume in many aspects of life that there will be short-term pain associated with that outlook.

[bigskyhoya]

If we have four more years anything like this one, there may just two posters left on this Board, as well as irreparable damage to the Georgetown basketball brand.