AltoSaxa
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,130
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Post by AltoSaxa on Jan 8, 2017 17:00:52 GMT -5
Have you lost your mind? There is literally nothing in life unconditional outside of parental love - nothing. Our entire value structure as a culture would break down if we bought into your unconditional brand of crazy. Once again, we get that you support JT3 and are opposed to the majority of fans and alums I know who can't believe he's still employed. That's fine. We can agree to disagree on JT3's performance. But you can't believe that support should be unconditional? You just can't. That's insanity! Seriously, leaders at all levels of society not only should be held accountable, they must be held accountable. It's our duty as members of a responsible society to hold leadership accountable. The mindless, rah-rah sheep mentality is not only irresponsible, it's dangerous. From Nazi Germany to Joe Paterno, history is rife with the perils of blind loyalty. If we are to succeed in any venture as a people, our support and value system must be conditional on every level. What do you do for a living hoyalove4ever? "Nazi Germany"? You really went there? Your hyperbole has totally jumped the shark. It's obvious he was, in general terms, using a historical reference to discuss unconditional allegiance, love, etc. But good job reverse jumping the shark. |
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AltoSaxa
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,130
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Post by AltoSaxa on Jan 8, 2017 17:06:12 GMT -5
Have you lost your mind? There is literally nothing in life unconditional outside of parental love - nothing. Our entire value structure as a culture would break down if we bought into your unconditional brand of crazy. Once again, we get that you support JT3 and are opposed to the majority of fans and alums I know who can't believe he's still employed. That's fine. We can agree to disagree on JT3's performance. But you can't believe that support should be unconditional? You just can't. That's insanity! Seriously, leaders at all levels of society not only should be held accountable, they must be held accountable. It's our duty as members of a responsible society to hold leadership accountable. The mindless, rah-rah sheep mentality is not only irresponsible, it's dangerous. From Nazi Germany to Joe Paterno, history is rife with the perils of blind loyalty. If we are to succeed in any venture as a people, our support and value system must be conditional on every level. What do you do for a living hoyalove4ever? Being a fan means being a fanatic supporter of a team. The team owes the fan NOTHING. The fan commits to supporting the team NO MATTER WHAT. There are no Nazis or child molesters here. We are talking about a college basketball program. Everyone agrees that the really important stuff, in terms of integrity, etc., is being done right. As long as that is the case, I will be happy and proud to support the team. And my job? I am a trial lawyer. Lawyer and integrity - oxymoron Not sure how one's employment justifies their position on the current state of Georgetown basketball |
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DFW HOYA
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 5,911
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Post by DFW HOYA on Jan 8, 2017 17:16:02 GMT -5
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AltoSaxa
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,130
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Post by AltoSaxa on Jan 8, 2017 17:18:45 GMT -5
Why isn't running a successful program equally as important as running a clean program and emphasizing academics? It's three prongs and the coach should be evaluated on his ability to fulfill each objective each year. Besides let's not pretend that winning is not first and foremost on the mind of this coach and this program. It's not merely aspirational. Josh Smith and many others were not brought in for any other reason. They were not academic reclamation projects. Nor are each of the 4 and 5 star kids that the Hoyas recruit each year. I guess what I find most troubling is that to some there appear to be only two camps: the haters and the apologists. Yet to many of us, particularly those of us who are minorities or mixed race, the issue is agonizing. We do not want to lose the connection between Big John and the university. We admire the effort of his son to continue that tradition. But no one should be beyond scrutiny, even at jeopardy of losing an historic partnership with these men. Excellent points. There is room here for both view points and civil discussion, yet we have increasingly pejorative posts appearing here culminating in what I consider one of the most personally offensive things ever posted here today in which a poster who should know better compared people with a differing viewpoint to supporters of Nazi Germany. Aside from unacceptably trivializing one of the most heinous atrocites in human history by comparing it to supporters of a basketball program, that kind of disrespect for other posters here is way out of bounds. I get it - we all care for this program, most of us probably to an unhealthy degree. Some of us need to dial the language back A LOT and remember that this board is out there for all to see, including the staff and the student athletes on the team, and think about the impact of the words we post on other posters and the student athletes before just firing off posts. Really? No one connected Nazi Germany and support of the coach. I am saddened that this obtuse conclusion is being drawn by, no less, the moderator of the board. Let me remind all that although this board is an entity independent of the University it nonetheless discusses the University. |
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Elvado
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 6,080
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Post by Elvado on Jan 8, 2017 17:19:16 GMT -5
Has any school ever achieved the elusive double doughnut in Men's and Women's BE Basketball? I assume you would know my friend. |
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DanMcQ
Moderator 
Posts: 32,832
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Post by DanMcQ on Jan 8, 2017 17:44:30 GMT -5
Excellent points. There is room here for both view points and civil discussion, yet we have increasingly pejorative posts appearing here culminating in what I consider one of the most personally offensive things ever posted here today in which a poster who should know better compared people with a differing viewpoint to supporters of Nazi Germany. Aside from unacceptably trivializing one of the most heinous atrocites in human history by comparing it to supporters of a basketball program, that kind of disrespect for other posters here is way out of bounds. I get it - we all care for this program, most of us probably to an unhealthy degree. Some of us need to dial the language back A LOT and remember that this board is out there for all to see, including the staff and the student athletes on the team, and think about the impact of the words we post on other posters and the student athletes before just firing off posts. Really? No one connected Nazi Germany and support of the coach. I am saddened that this obtuse conclusion is being drawn by, no less, the moderator of the board. Let me remind all that although this board is an entity independent of the University it nonetheless discusses the University. Disagree. Totally inappropriate reference to be included here and in the context it was offered the reference drawn/insult made was clear. It has no place here, regardless of whether this place is independent of the University. |
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DFW HOYA
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 5,911
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Post by DFW HOYA on Jan 8, 2017 17:46:08 GMT -5
Has any school ever achieved the elusive double doughnut in Men's and Women's BE Basketball? I assume you would know my friend. Never happened, and not likely to. Pitt went 0-16 a couple years back. Georgetown's record in women'a basketball since the new Big East? 38-72 (.345). And of course, very few care. |
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smokeyjack
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,313 
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Post by smokeyjack on Jan 8, 2017 17:56:41 GMT -5
Really? No one connected Nazi Germany and support of the coach. I am saddened that this obtuse conclusion is being drawn by, no less, the moderator of the board. Let me remind all that although this board is an entity independent of the University it nonetheless discusses the University. Disagree. Totally inappropriate reference to be included here and in the context it was offered the reference drawn/insult made was clear. It has no place here, regardless of whether this place is independent of the University. OK - we get it. It's your board. I am hereby chastened for making a historical reference. I think we'd all agree that questioning someone's sanity is far more offensive and insulting...and of that I am absolutely guilty. |
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hoyarad
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
Posts: 521
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Post by hoyarad on Jan 8, 2017 20:07:27 GMT -5
As I see it, the "really important stuff" is what happens on the court. The integrity stuff is a complete given. We don't need to pay $4M a year to make sure 13 kids are staying in school and out of jail. I think the going rate for a babysitter these days is $15 an hour. I really would like to know where the fanbase stands in general relative to JT3, because though my alumni circle is relatively small and mid-40s, it's about 95% pro-change. On a side note relative to perception, two of the four kids I have interviewed this year as part of GU's admission process have asked me what it would take for JT3 to be replaced, because as one put it "hoops was kind of their thing and now it's not." I know we'd all like to think popularity and reputation are above the vagaries of something as tertiary to the institution as the men's basketball program. But I can tell you Villanova's applicant pool is running at 2.5x last year's pool at the same time. And then there's the fact that men's hoops needs to fund the rest of our athletic department. That's tough to do with empty stadiums and disgruntled alumni donors. Those of you who defend JT3 can act like it's "just basketball." But I would assert that our bball program in its current state is literally devaluing more than just the basketball brand; it's costing all alums actual diploma equity. Like many others on this board, I have the utmost respect for John and Monica as people. I think they are both terrific ambassadors for the school. But our on-court results over the past three years have been just short of disastrous. Fascinating post and troubling at the same time. I would think that the number of applications that are materially impacted by the state of our basketball program would be relatively small, but even small numbers can make big differences. And it does absolutely take away a selling point for the school with prospective students when you basketball program is heading in the direction ours is (hint- it's not the right direction). I don't know...most of the kids I interview don't know much about our basketball program. Not sure there is much of a correlate. I'm sure it helps with volume if applications but maybe not quality. |
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Post by reformation on Jan 8, 2017 21:09:00 GMT -5
I doubt the univ will ever fire JT111. Instead, if the really poor on court performance continues for another couple of years, I think they will find a way to move JT111 to AD or some type of hybrid AD Director of basketball operations role. Lee Reed can either be retired or moved to some other role simultaneously. That can be a face saving move for all concerned, albeit an expensive one for the Univ.
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Post by professorhoya on Jan 8, 2017 21:42:03 GMT -5
I doubt the univ will ever fire JT111. Instead, if the really poor on court performance continues for another couple of years, I think they will find a way to move JT111 to AD or some type of hybrid AD Director of basketball operations role. Lee Reed can either be retired or moved to some other role simultaneously. That can be a face saving move for all concerned, albeit an expensive one for the Univ. That's probably the best scenario if you are going to get rid of him because otherwise you risk alienating the Thompson's and all the alumni pro players who served under them. If you fire them you risk having a DePaul like situation where ray Meyer and the rest of the NBA alumni distance themselves from the program. |
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Post by reformation on Jan 8, 2017 22:14:36 GMT -5
I actually don't think its a bad outcome if JT111 cannot turn things around--there are precedents for it at other major Univ.'s. Obviously we'd all like to see a turnaround, but I'm sure at some level all realize the situation can't go on forever in a high profile big revenue sport.
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Post by michaelgrahmstylie on Jan 8, 2017 22:16:58 GMT -5
I doubt the univ will ever fire JT111. Instead, if the really poor on court performance continues for another couple of years, I think they will find a way to move JT111 to AD or some type of hybrid AD Director of basketball operations role. Lee Reed can either be retired or moved to some other role simultaneously. That can be a face saving move for all concerned, albeit an expensive one for the Univ. Sad to say, I think I am about ready for that switcheroo to occur just about now. Love JT III! Love winning more! We have talent. I just don't understand. |
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Jan 8, 2017 22:30:59 GMT -5
Why isn't running a successful program equally as important as running a clean program and emphasizing academics? It's three prongs and the coach should be evaluated on his ability to fulfill each objective each year. Besides let's not pretend that winning is not first and foremost on the mind of this coach and this program. It's not merely aspirational. Josh Smith and many others were not brought in for any other reason. They were not academic reclamation projects. Nor are each of the 4 and 5 star kids that the Hoyas recruit each year. I guess what I find most troubling is that to some there appear to be only two camps: the haters and the apologists. Yet to many of us, particularly those of us who are minorities or mixed race, the issue is agonizing. We do not want to lose the connection between Big John and the university. We admire the effort of his son to continue that tradition. But no one should be beyond scrutiny, even at jeopardy of losing an historic partnership with these men. Good post. I agree. This board is beginning to resemble politics - you cannot simply disagree with someone, but rather people seem to need to ratchet up the level of crazy to the point where it leads people to making points or arguments that are pretty out there. A few points: The obsession with salary still befuddles me. Yes, JT3 makes a lot of money, and yes, his performance hasn't been good overall the last few years (though 2015 was good). But before that his performance was actually quite excellent - several good Big East seasons, several high seeds, the Sweet 16 and Final Four. Yes, his March results after that were not up to expectations, but he was still a good coach. At least as of last year, Georgetown was only one of 10 schools that had consistently been in the KenPom top 65 for several years running. Now, that stat isn't all that meaningful, but it does show you that most programs - even some that would likely be considered "better" with Hall of Fame coaches, have their down years. And that's why he makes a lot of money, that's really all there is to it. JT3 and the Thompsons have meant a lot to Georgetown over the years. There is no innate reason why Georgetown should have ever had a great basketball program. It's very easy to envision a different history whereby the basketball program never really developed and ended up in some low-level Division I conference. Why didn't that happen? Because of John Thompson Jr. He may never have gotten the program back to the heights of the early 1980s, and his performance was not as good in the 1990s (especially the latter years), but he made the program. That said, John Thompson Jr. did not leave the program in great shape. For all the crap people give Craig Esherick, he did not inherit a great situation. The cubbard was largely bare, and he had to follow in the footsteps of a Hall of Fame coach. That said, except for 2001, in which me made the Sweet 16 in large part because of a good matchup, he really did nothing. And by the end of his tenure, things looked awfully hopeless in general. I was a Georgetown student when Esherick was the coach. I can tell you from personal experience that when I was applying to Georgetown (right before JT Jr. quit), basketball wasn't on my mind when applying and the same could be said for a supermajority of my teammates. And things were much worse then than they are now (for those who always say things can't get worse - they can). Georgetown then took a pretty big risk in hiring John Thompson III, but his early success seemed to make it a good decision, as did his success over the next decade (even if the March success wasn't as good as we all would have liked). In a lot of ways, John Thompson III is a perfect fit for Georgetown. He continues the Thompson tradition. He runs a good program. Up until the last two years, he ran a high quality program where we were often ranked in the top 25, and where we were consistently competitive. Finding a coach who can do that - regardless of whether their last name is Thompson - is not an easy task. And many very good coaches have downswings in their careers (see Mike Brey, who from 2004-2009 only made the NCAA tournament twice and did not make it past the first weekend, yet he rebounded afterward), so the fact that Thompson is having a downswing isn't shocking and it's not something unheard of. Thus, the real question is, in my mind, you have to be really, really, really, sure that Thompson cannot get back to where he once was before you dismiss him and take a risk on someone else who is either a retread or a "hot" assistant like Wojo or Johnny Dawkins (in the early 2000s) who may have success, or may not (like Dawkins). Now, we basically have a situation where Thompson had a fair amount of success from 2004-2013. Then he (barely) missed the tournament, was a 4 seed, and then was sub .500. And he may be headed sub .500 again. Now, that's not a good record over the last four years, but it's also better than the downswing Brey had at Notre Dame (I only mention Brey because I think a lot of people here on the anti-JT3 side would call Brey a much better coach than JT3 and welcome him here if he wanted to come to coach). So the question really is, can JT3 do the job in the future? I think you need to have a good, solid answer on that (in the negative) before dismissing him and incurring the negative ramifications of that move before you act. That's why I am generally supportive of giving him an adequate shot. There may come a time when the options available (a retread or a "hot" assistant) are better choices than JT3. In my mind, that's probably allowing one more year after this one (and I am still hopeful things turn around), and seeing how JT3 does with Waters and the rest. I realize that others feel differently, and I respect that opinion. I can understand where you are coming from, and I can understand that some have less (in some cases a lot less) patience than I have. While I am sometimes called an "apologist," it has pained me to see the March failures and to see our recent struggles. If I believed a coaching change now would solve that problem, I would agree, but I don't think we are there yet. All that being said, before calling me an apologist, know that I am very unhappy with the year we have had, and last year. And, if you read my game-thread post from the Butler game, I was critical of JT3's personnel moves that may have cost us the game. I don't think he's a perfect coach, but nobody will be. And there's a very good chance that whoever were to follow him would face similar problems. The grass isn't always greener on the other side, even if it feels that way. |
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eagle54
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 2,471
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Post by eagle54 on Jan 8, 2017 23:40:58 GMT -5
I get all the back and forth and pros and cons of both sides of this one. I think the administration is to fail here because they don't know what to do with this as JTII has been at the helm of this program forever and they haven't really made a decision since his hiring in the 70's. They wouldn't know where to start. That calls into question the AD who should be the one to figure this out but I'm sure he carries far less weight then the coach and his father. Problem is this performance has been far worse than what people are saying for many years. The postseason failures far outweigh where we finished in the BE and trying to act like other schools would be happy with what we are. I think our move into the new BE coinciding with our further slide into what we are now compounded all of this as we are in an easier field now then we were and have gone off the rails.
Question is do we really believe one more year is going to fix this? I don't see it as I see a roster with our two top players (Peak and Pryor) gone next year and a freshman PG coming in who's going to turn all this around. Not likely unless he's named Iverson. It was the same argument last year to give one more year and we did and we'll likely fall further back this year so we keep kicking the can.
The other thing that's going on is you have a coach that has switched his entire system to something he doesn't know. He played and coached a certain way and that way doesn't work anymore so he's trying to adapt but that's not easy to do. I'd rather see a coach who is coming from somewhere that is successful and understands what their system is and can recruit to it.
I think Smokey and others were correct in their assessments of where the alumni are on this and it's apathy. When I get together with fellow alum's they just laugh off our program and feel it an embarrassment. They are not glued to ever stretch of the season as we are on this board but do know all to well about the catastrophes in March. Also do think it has an impact on the school and interest. Look Georgetown will never be short of quality applicants but having a top ranked basketball program could be the difference in certain ones choosing us over an Ivy because the basketball program is something we have and they don't. If we don't think it's important to the alumni and the schools attraction than again why are we trying to compete and investing so much?
I understand the Thompson legacy and that has been permanently cemented. Not many coaches have a building and statue in their honor on campus. I would like to hear from JTII on this as it doesn't look like III is having much fun and may actually want a soft exit.
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gujake
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
Posts: 831
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Post by gujake on Jan 8, 2017 23:43:40 GMT -5
So the question really is, can JT3 do the job in the future? I think you need to have a good, solid answer on that (in the negative) before dismissing him and incurring the negative ramifications of that move before you act. That's why I am generally supportive of giving him an adequate shot. I agree this is the central question. But I am curious: what negative ramifications are you worried about? Are you talking about on the court or off the court? Also, I don't think it's fair to paint retreads and assistants as the alternative options, unless you are lumping mid-major coaches in with retreads. In fact, I would personally be disappointed if Georgetown goes with a retread or an assistant. There are plenty of successful mid-major coaches who would be interested in Georgetown. And, although not my first choice, someone like Ewing with NBA ties might be considered as well. |
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This Just In
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Bold Prediction: The Hoyas will win at least 1 BE game in 2023.
Posts: 10,596
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Post by This Just In on Jan 8, 2017 23:50:31 GMT -5
Why isn't running a successful program equally as important as running a clean program and emphasizing academics? It's three prongs and the coach should be evaluated on his ability to fulfill each objective each year. Besides let's not pretend that winning is not first and foremost on the mind of this coach and this program. It's not merely aspirational. Josh Smith and many others were not brought in for any other reason. They were not academic reclamation projects. Nor are each of the 4 and 5 star kids that the Hoyas recruit each year. I guess what I find most troubling is that to some there appear to be only two camps: the haters and the apologists. Yet to many of us, particularly those of us who are minorities or mixed race, the issue is agonizing. We do not want to lose the connection between Big John and the university. We admire the effort of his son to continue that tradition. But no one should be beyond scrutiny, even at jeopardy of losing an historic partnership with these men. Good post. I agree. This board is beginning to resemble politics - you cannot simply disagree with someone, but rather people seem to need to ratchet up the level of crazy to the point where it leads people to making points or arguments that are pretty out there. A few points: The obsession with salary still befuddles me. Yes, JT3 makes a lot of money, and yes, his performance hasn't been good overall the last few years (though 2015 was good). But before that his performance was actually quite excellent - several good Big East seasons, several high seeds, the Sweet 16 and Final Four. Yes, his March results after that were not up to expectations, but he was still a good coach. At least as of last year, Georgetown was only one of 10 schools that had consistently been in the KenPom top 65 for several years running. Now, that stat isn't all that meaningful, but it does show you that most programs - even some that would likely be considered "better" with Hall of Fame coaches, have their down years. And that's why he makes a lot of money, that's really all there is to it. JT3 and the Thompsons have meant a lot to Georgetown over the years. There is no innate reason why Georgetown should have ever had a great basketball program. It's very easy to envision a different history whereby the basketball program never really developed and ended up in some low-level Division I conference. Why didn't that happen? Because of John Thompson Jr. He may never have gotten the program back to the heights of the early 1980s, and his performance was not as good in the 1990s (especially the latter years), but he made the program. That said, John Thompson Jr. did not leave the program in great shape. For all the crap people give Craig Esherick, he did not inherit a great situation. The cubbard was largely bare, and he had to follow in the footsteps of a Hall of Fame coach. That said, except for 2001, in which me made the Sweet 16 in large part because of a good matchup, he really did nothing. And by the end of his tenure, things looked awfully hopeless in general. I was a Georgetown student when Esherick was the coach. I can tell you from personal experience that when I was applying to Georgetown (right before JT Jr. quit), basketball wasn't on my mind when applying and the same could be said for a supermajority of my teammates. And things were much worse then than they are now (for those who always say things can't get worse - they can). Georgetown then took a pretty big risk in hiring John Thompson III, but his early success seemed to make it a good decision, as did his success over the next decade (even if the March success wasn't as good as we all would have liked). In a lot of ways, John Thompson III is a perfect fit for Georgetown. He continues the Thompson tradition. He runs a good program. Up until the last two years, he ran a high quality program where we were often ranked in the top 25, and where we were consistently competitive. Finding a coach who can do that - regardless of whether their last name is Thompson - is not an easy task. And many very good coaches have downswings in their careers (see Mike Brey, who from 2004-2009 only made the NCAA tournament twice and did not make it past the first weekend, yet he rebounded afterward), so the fact that Thompson is having a downswing isn't shocking and it's not something unheard of. Thus, the real question is, in my mind, you have to be really, really, really, sure that Thompson cannot get back to where he once was before you dismiss him and take a risk on someone else who is either a retread or a "hot" assistant like Wojo or Johnny Dawkins (in the early 2000s) who may have success, or may not (like Dawkins). Now, we basically have a situation where Thompson had a fair amount of success from 2004-2013. Then he (barely) missed the tournament, was a 4 seed, and then was sub .500. And he may be headed sub .500 again. Now, that's not a good record over the last four years, but it's also better than the downswing Brey had at Notre Dame (I only mention Brey because I think a lot of people here on the anti-JT3 side would call Brey a much better coach than JT3 and welcome him here if he wanted to come to coach). So the question really is, can JT3 do the job in the future? I think you need to have a good, solid answer on that (in the negative) before dismissing him and incurring the negative ramifications of that move before you act. That's why I am generally supportive of giving him an adequate shot. There may come a time when the options available (a retread or a "hot" assistant) are better choices than JT3. In my mind, that's probably allowing one more year after this one (and I am still hopeful things turn around), and seeing how JT3 does with Waters and the rest. I realize that others feel differently, and I respect that opinion. I can understand where you are coming from, and I can understand that some have less (in some cases a lot less) patience than I have. While I am sometimes called an "apologist," it has pained me to see the March failures and to see our recent struggles. If I believed a coaching change now would solve that problem, I would agree, but I don't think we are there yet. All that being said, before calling me an apologist, know that I am very unhappy with the year we have had, and last year. And, if you read my game-thread post from the Butler game, I was critical of JT3's personnel moves that may have cost us the game. I don't think he's a perfect coach, but nobody will be. And there's a very good chance that whoever were to follow him would face similar problems. The grass isn't always greener on the other side, even if it feels that way. The reason JTIII's salary is an issue that you do not need to pay a coach top 14 salary in the industry for the type of results below: This is JTIII's 4th year in the New Big and he has had only 1 season with a win % above (.500) JTIII's New BE Reg. Season record to date 27-31 (.465) St. Johns gave the Hoyas their last BE Reg. Season win on Feb 8th, 2015 The team has now lost 10 straight BE Regular Season games JTIII's BE Reg Season record the last year plus 7-15 (.318) In 18 days will be the 1 year anniversary of beating a BE team not named DePaul or St. Johns 0-4 BE Record for the 1st time since 1999 Currently tied for last place in the BE with win less DePaul (I remember a time when this board would make fun of DePaul and now we share the rankings) When it comes to March: NIT Record since 2009: 1-2 BET Record Post 2008 Final loss to Pitt: 7-8 Georgetown has not won the BET in a decade and counting JTIII has not been to the 2nd weekend/Sweet 16 in a decade and counting. JTIII has not won back to back game in either the NIT or NCAA's in a decade and counting Overall Record NCAA Record: 9-8 NCAA Record Post 2007 Final Four: 3-8 What makes you think that JTIII can get this turned around? |
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smokeyjack
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,313
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Post by smokeyjack on Jan 9, 2017 8:10:13 GMT -5
Good post. I agree. This board is beginning to resemble politics - you cannot simply disagree with someone, but rather people seem to need to ratchet up the level of crazy to the point where it leads people to making points or arguments that are pretty out there. A few points: The obsession with salary still befuddles me. Yes, JT3 makes a lot of money, and yes, his performance hasn't been good overall the last few years (though 2015 was good). But before that his performance was actually quite excellent - several good Big East seasons, several high seeds, the Sweet 16 and Final Four. Yes, his March results after that were not up to expectations, but he was still a good coach. At least as of last year, Georgetown was only one of 10 schools that had consistently been in the KenPom top 65 for several years running. Now, that stat isn't all that meaningful, but it does show you that most programs - even some that would likely be considered "better" with Hall of Fame coaches, have their down years. And that's why he makes a lot of money, that's really all there is to it. JT3 and the Thompsons have meant a lot to Georgetown over the years. There is no innate reason why Georgetown should have ever had a great basketball program. It's very easy to envision a different history whereby the basketball program never really developed and ended up in some low-level Division I conference. Why didn't that happen? Because of John Thompson Jr. He may never have gotten the program back to the heights of the early 1980s, and his performance was not as good in the 1990s (especially the latter years), but he made the program. That said, John Thompson Jr. did not leave the program in great shape. For all the crap people give Craig Esherick, he did not inherit a great situation. The cubbard was largely bare, and he had to follow in the footsteps of a Hall of Fame coach. That said, except for 2001, in which me made the Sweet 16 in large part because of a good matchup, he really did nothing. And by the end of his tenure, things looked awfully hopeless in general. I was a Georgetown student when Esherick was the coach. I can tell you from personal experience that when I was applying to Georgetown (right before JT Jr. quit), basketball wasn't on my mind when applying and the same could be said for a supermajority of my teammates. And things were much worse then than they are now (for those who always say things can't get worse - they can). Georgetown then took a pretty big risk in hiring John Thompson III, but his early success seemed to make it a good decision, as did his success over the next decade (even if the March success wasn't as good as we all would have liked). In a lot of ways, John Thompson III is a perfect fit for Georgetown. He continues the Thompson tradition. He runs a good program. Up until the last two years, he ran a high quality program where we were often ranked in the top 25, and where we were consistently competitive. Finding a coach who can do that - regardless of whether their last name is Thompson - is not an easy task. And many very good coaches have downswings in their careers (see Mike Brey, who from 2004-2009 only made the NCAA tournament twice and did not make it past the first weekend, yet he rebounded afterward), so the fact that Thompson is having a downswing isn't shocking and it's not something unheard of. Thus, the real question is, in my mind, you have to be really, really, really, sure that Thompson cannot get back to where he once was before you dismiss him and take a risk on someone else who is either a retread or a "hot" assistant like Wojo or Johnny Dawkins (in the early 2000s) who may have success, or may not (like Dawkins). Now, we basically have a situation where Thompson had a fair amount of success from 2004-2013. Then he (barely) missed the tournament, was a 4 seed, and then was sub .500. And he may be headed sub .500 again. Now, that's not a good record over the last four years, but it's also better than the downswing Brey had at Notre Dame (I only mention Brey because I think a lot of people here on the anti-JT3 side would call Brey a much better coach than JT3 and welcome him here if he wanted to come to coach). So the question really is, can JT3 do the job in the future? I think you need to have a good, solid answer on that (in the negative) before dismissing him and incurring the negative ramifications of that move before you act. That's why I am generally supportive of giving him an adequate shot. There may come a time when the options available (a retread or a "hot" assistant) are better choices than JT3. In my mind, that's probably allowing one more year after this one (and I am still hopeful things turn around), and seeing how JT3 does with Waters and the rest. I realize that others feel differently, and I respect that opinion. I can understand where you are coming from, and I can understand that some have less (in some cases a lot less) patience than I have. While I am sometimes called an "apologist," it has pained me to see the March failures and to see our recent struggles. If I believed a coaching change now would solve that problem, I would agree, but I don't think we are there yet. All that being said, before calling me an apologist, know that I am very unhappy with the year we have had, and last year. And, if you read my game-thread post from the Butler game, I was critical of JT3's personnel moves that may have cost us the game. I don't think he's a perfect coach, but nobody will be. And there's a very good chance that whoever were to follow him would face similar problems. The grass isn't always greener on the other side, even if it feels that way. The reason JTIII's salary is an issue that you do not need to pay a coach top 14 salary in the industry for the type of results below: This is JTIII's 4th year in the New Big and he has had only 1 season with a win % above (.500) JTIII's New BE Reg. Season record to date 27-31 (.465) St. Johns gave the Hoyas their last BE Reg. Season win on Feb 8th, 2015 The team has now lost 10 straight BE Regular Season games JTIII's BE Reg Season record the last year plus 7-15 (.318) In 18 days will be the 1 year anniversary of beating a BE team not named DePaul or St. Johns 0-4 BE Record for the 1st time since 1999 Currently tied for last place in the BE with win less DePaul (I remember a time when this board would make fun of DePaul and now we share the rankings) When it comes to March: NIT Record since 2009: 1-2 BET Record Post 2008 Final loss to Pitt: 7-8 Georgetown has not won the BET in a decade and counting JTIII has not been to the 2nd weekend/Sweet 16 in a decade and counting. JTIII has not won back to back game in either the NIT or NCAA's in a decade and counting Overall Record NCAA Record: 9-8 NCAA Record Post 2007 Final Four: 3-8 What makes you think that JTIII can get this turned around? Strong list of extremely damning stats TIJ. I knew we were in a pretty nasty rut but didn't realize it was actually that bad. Others also make very compelling argument that on paper next year would seem to be even more of a rebuilding year with at least our two top scorers moving on.' |
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Bigs"R"Us
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 6,656
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Post by Bigs"R"Us on Jan 9, 2017 8:51:25 GMT -5
How long can we go playing in an empty Verizon?
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Elvado
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 6,080
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Post by Elvado on Jan 9, 2017 9:34:03 GMT -5
From VerIzon's perspective forever since we pay for the right to rattle around that place.
Not to worry though, if things don't change soon McDonough will be plenty big enough...
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