JT III Coaching Discussion

[deacon]

Jan 8, 2017 10:18:07 GMT -5 hoyalove4ever said:

This "downward spiral" stuff is hilarious to me. It is less than two years! I do not think even three years a spiral makes.

That said, as fans, we may have to take some massive proverbial punches to the face, gut, head, etc. I am ready, willing, and able to take those- while laughing and blowing kisses.

The really sad things is- Monday night is the epitome of when Verizon should be PACKED beyond capacity and loud as all get out. As fans, we should show up and show out to give the teams our support even when it is down. We should be happy and proud to do so. Regardless of what happens- blowout win or loss- we should stay until the end and show out support. Our position as fans should NOT be conditional.

Before each game, I try to imagine the worst possible outcome- for instance, we lose 148-36, and Mullin empties his bench for the last ten minutes. I remind myself that I need to be a positive supporter of the team even in the unlikely event that happens. As a fan, my only job is to support the team- win or lose. I would suggest that those who cannot do that stop being fans and following Hoya hoops.

LOL.

I get it now.

You're good. Had me going for a few pages.

[smokeyjack]

Jan 8, 2017 11:37:48 GMT -5 hoyalove4ever said:

Jan 8, 2017 11:07:30 GMT -5 smokeyjack said:

Have you lost your mind? There is literally nothing in life unconditional outside of parental love - nothing. Our entire value structure as a culture would break down if we bought into your unconditional brand of crazy.

Once again, we get that you support JT3 and are opposed to the majority of fans and alums I know who can't believe he's still employed. That's fine. We can agree to disagree on JT3's performance.

But you can't believe that support should be unconditional? You just can't. That's insanity!

Seriously, leaders at all levels of society not only should be held accountable, they must be held accountable. It's our duty as members of a responsible society to hold leadership accountable.

The mindless, rah-rah sheep mentality is not only irresponsible, it's dangerous. From Nazi Germany to Joe Paterno, history is rife with the perils of blind loyalty.

If we are to succeed in any venture as a people, our support and value system must be conditional on every level.

What do you do for a living hoyalove4ever?

Being a fan means being a fanatic supporter of a team. The team owes the fan NOTHING. The fan commits to supporting the team NO MATTER WHAT.

There are no Nazis or child molesters here. We are talking about a college basketball program. Everyone agrees that the really important stuff, in terms of integrity, etc., is being done right. As long as that is the case, I will be happy and proud to support the team.

And my job? I am a trial lawyer.

As I see it, the "really important stuff" is what happens on the court. The integrity stuff is a complete given. We don't need to pay $4M a year to make sure 13 kids are staying in school and out of jail. I think the going rate for a babysitter these days is $15 an hour.

I really would like to know where the fanbase stands in general relative to JT3, because though my alumni circle is relatively small and mid-40s, it's about 95% pro-change.

On a side note relative to perception, two of the four kids I have interviewed this year as part of GU's admission process have asked me what it would take for JT3 to be replaced, because as one put it "hoops was kind of their thing and now it's not."

I know we'd all like to think popularity and reputation are above the vagaries of something as tertiary to the institution as the men's basketball program. But I can tell you Villanova's applicant pool is running at 2.5x last year's pool at the same time. And then there's the fact that men's hoops needs to fund the rest of our athletic department. That's tough to do with empty stadiums and disgruntled alumni donors.

Those of you who defend JT3 can act like it's "just basketball." But I would assert that our bball program in its current state is literally devaluing more than just the basketball brand; it's costing all alums actual diploma equity.

Like many others on this board, I have the utmost respect for John and Monica as people. I think they are both terrific ambassadors for the school. But our on-court results over the past three years have been just short of disastrous.

GU hoops is absolutely irrelevant.

[DFW HOYA]

Jan 8, 2017 13:15:48 GMT -5 smokeyjack said:

I know we'd all like to think popularity and reputation are above the vagaries of something as tertiary to the institution as the men's basketball program. But I can tell you Villanova's applicant pool is running at 2.5x last year's pool at the same time. And then there's the fact that men's hoops needs to fund the rest of our athletic department. That's tough to do with empty stadiums and disgruntled alumni donors.

Villanvoa's pool is up and Georgetown's is up less. If Georgetown accepted the Common Application (which it wisely does not), its apps would be up 50 percent. So what?

Men's basketball does not fund the athletic department. It funds itself, which in and of itself is a discussion point but not a cause and effect scenario.

Jan 8, 2017 13:15:48 GMT -5 smokeyjack said:

Those of you who defend JT3 can act like it's "just basketball." But I would assert that our bball program in its current state is literally devaluing more than just the basketball brand; it's costing all alums actual diploma equity. GU hoops is absolutely irrelevant.

This too is hyperbole. Show me any example of someone who was not hired, not promoted, or otherwise adversely affected in employment by a basketball schedule.

[KHoyaNYC]

Jan 8, 2017 13:15:48 GMT -5 smokeyjack said:

Jan 8, 2017 11:37:48 GMT -5 hoyalove4ever said:

Being a fan means being a fanatic supporter of a team. The team owes the fan NOTHING. The fan commits to supporting the team NO MATTER WHAT.

There are no Nazis or child molesters here. We are talking about a college basketball program. Everyone agrees that the really important stuff, in terms of integrity, etc., is being done right. As long as that is the case, I will be happy and proud to support the team.

And my job? I am a trial lawyer.

As I see it, the "really important stuff" is what happens on the court. The integrity stuff is a complete given. We don't need to pay $4M a year to make sure 13 kids are staying in school and out of jail. I think the going rate for a babysitter these days is $15 an hour.

I really would like to know where the fanbase stands in general relative to JT3, because though my alumni circle is relatively small and mid-40s, it's about 95% pro-change.

On a side note relative to perception, two of the four kids I have interviewed this year as part of GU's admission process have asked me what it would take for JT3 to be replaced, because as one put it "hoops was kind of their thing and now it's not."

I know we'd all like to think popularity and reputation are above the vagaries of something as tertiary to the institution as the men's basketball program. But I can tell you Villanova's applicant pool is running at 2.5x last year's pool at the same time. And then there's the fact that men's hoops needs to fund the rest of our athletic department. That's tough to do with empty stadiums and disgruntled alumni donors.

Those of you who defend JT3 can act like it's "just basketball." But I would assert that our bball program in its current state is literally devaluing more than just the basketball brand; it's costing all alums actual diploma equity.

Like many others on this board, I have the utmost respect for John and Monica as people. I think they are both terrific ambassadors for the school. But our on-court results over the past three years have been just short of disastrous.

Fascinating post and troubling at the same time. I would think that the number of applications that are materially impacted by the state of our basketball program would be relatively small, but even small numbers can make big differences. And it does absolutely take away a selling point for the school with prospective students when you basketball program is heading in the direction ours is (hint- it's not the right direction).

[DFW HOYA]

Jan 8, 2017 13:29:00 GMT -5 KHoyaNYC said:

]Fascinating post and troubling at the same time. I would think that the number of applications that are materially impacted by the state of our basketball program would be relatively small, but even small numbers can make big differences.

[KHoyaNYC]

Jan 8, 2017 13:31:57 GMT -5 DFW HOYA said:

Jan 8, 2017 13:29:00 GMT -5 KHoyaNYC said:

]Fascinating post and troubling at the same time. I would think that the number of applications that are materially impacted by the state of our basketball program would be relatively small, but even small numbers can make big differences.

The sky is falling! Oh, wait...

I never said the sky was falling. And I also said I thought the number of applications for which our basketball program mattered would be small. But why would you discount what smokey has to say? Here is someone who is obviously involved in interviewing prospective students for our school who is providing first hand accounts of what those students are saying about our basketball program. We should take that seriously. And I highly doubt it's limited to just students who happen to interview with smokey.

[smokeyjack]

Jan 8, 2017 13:19:18 GMT -5 DFW HOYA said:

Jan 8, 2017 13:15:48 GMT -5 smokeyjack said:

I know we'd all like to think popularity and reputation are above the vagaries of something as tertiary to the institution as the men's basketball program. But I can tell you Villanova's applicant pool is running at 2.5x last year's pool at the same time. And then there's the fact that men's hoops needs to fund the rest of our athletic department. That's tough to do with empty stadiums and disgruntled alumni donors.

Villanvoa's pool is up and Georgetown's is up less. If Georgetown accepted the Common Application (which it wisely does not), its apps would be up 50 percent. So what?

Men's basketball does not fund the athletic department. It funds itself, which in and of itself is a discussion point but not a cause and effect scenario.

Jan 8, 2017 13:15:48 GMT -5 smokeyjack said:

Those of you who defend JT3 can act like it's "just basketball." But I would assert that our bball program in its current state is literally devaluing more than just the basketball brand; it's costing all alums actual diploma equity. GU hoops is absolutely irrelevant.

This too is hyperbole. Show me any example of someone who was not hired, not promoted, or otherwise adversely affected in employment by a basketball schedule.

It's absolutely not hyperbole. The Georgetown brand is being devalued. That has a trickle-down impact on everything and everyone associated with the university.

How is that declining brand perception impacting me or those I know? I gave you one very clear manifestation at this point - it is absolutely impacting our applicant pool. If you don't think that will eventually adversely impact the student population, then I can't help you.


Are we still attracting extremely bright and passionate kids? Of course. But men's hoops used to be a drawing card that helped the university's q rating with kids and the public in general. In fact, for many people the basketball team is the public face of the university. That face is now hurting us instead of helping us.

I suggest next time you leave DC, you ask three people you meet on the street what they know about GU and see what you hear. I'll bet you dinner at a location of your choice that at least one will mention bball and not in a positive light.

[hoyalove4ever]

The "important stuff" is how the coach handles himself and runs the program. The on-court results are desirable and aspirational, but not mandatory. And that is okay, and no, it does not mean that we have to move to the Ivy League. We are in the Big East and have competed and won that way- as recently as a number four seed in 2015 and a league championship in 2013, using the same set of principles. We have done it before and can do it again, and should stick by the guy who has gotten it done many times before even when times are tough.

There are those who are proud when Georgetown has certain results on the basketball court, and then there are those are are proud and happy to be Hoya fans, period. I am in the latter group and feel great about it.

[smokeyjack]

Jan 8, 2017 13:52:08 GMT -5 hoyalove4ever said:

The "important stuff" is how the coach handles himself and runs the program. The on-court results are desirable and aspirational, but not mandatory. And that is okay, and no, it does not mean that we have to move to the Ivy League. We are in the Big East and have competed and won that way- as recently as a number four seed in 2015 and a league championship in 2013, using the same set of principles. We have done it before and can do it again, and should stick by the guy who has gotten it done many times before even when times are tough.

There are those who are proud when Georgetown has certain results on the basketball court, and then there are those are are proud and happy to be Hoya fans, period. I am in the latter group and feel great about it.

I am a proud alumnus, and I haven't missed a game in 22 years, though I do have to DVR many. I care deeply about the team and the school and will always root for them in the moment.

While my interest is unconditional, my complete support after the buzzer sounds requires a certain baseline of results. The current staff hasn't been comfortably above that threshold since 2008 and has been well below it over the last two seasons.

And like you, I feel comfortable with my level of commitment to the team and the university.

[alleninxis]

Jan 8, 2017 13:52:08 GMT -5 hoyalove4ever said:

The "important stuff" is how the coach handles himself and runs the program. The on-court results are desirable and aspirational, but not mandatory. And that is okay, and no, it does not mean that we have to move to the Ivy League. We are in the Big East and have competed and won that way- as recently as a number four seed in 2015 and a league championship in 2013, using the same set of principles. We have done it before and can do it again, and should stick by the guy who has gotten it done many times before even when times are tough.

There are those who are proud when Georgetown has certain results on the basketball court, and then there are those are are proud and happy to be Hoya fans, period. I am in the latter group and feel great about it.

Sorry but this is crazy. There are plenty of people qualified to match what he does in running a clean program and go beyond what he has produced on the court.

[SDHoya]

Jan 8, 2017 13:52:08 GMT -5 hoyalove4ever said:

The "important stuff" is how the coach handles himself and runs the program. The on-court results are desirable and aspirational, but not mandatory. And that is okay, and no, it does not mean that we have to move to the Ivy League. We are in the Big East and have competed and won that way- as recently as a number four seed in 2015 and a league championship in 2013, using the same set of principles. We have done it before and can do it again, and should stick by the guy who has gotten it done many times before even when times are tough.

There are those who are proud when Georgetown has certain results on the basketball court, and then there are those are are proud and happy to be Hoya fans, period. I am in the latter group and feel great about it.

On the court results are "aspirational"? If that is truly what you feel, Ivy League may be too competitive for you---lets just go DIII, and call it a day. It is necessary, but certainly not sufficient that we have a coach/program that runs itself in an ethical manner. But we can bring someone in for $60k a year to do that---we are paying JTIII one of the most lucrative contracts in college basketball because he is supposed to ALSO bring us top tier on-court results.

We are all proud alumni--but we are fans of Hoya basketball because we want/expect it to succeed on the court. How many die hard fans of Catholic University basketball do you know? But when the coach/staff apparently demonstrate ineptitude in the facet of their job for which they are most generously compensated--i.e. winning--even the most die hard reasonably become frustrated and enough frustration without seeing accountability leads to tuning out. This is not an issue of being a fair weather fan, this is an issue of voting with your pocketbooks.

[royski]

Apparently $3m per year is a reasonable salary for running a program where kids don't get arrested. After all, that's the really important thing. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.

[smokeyjack]

Jan 8, 2017 14:50:21 GMT -5 SDHoya said:

Jan 8, 2017 13:52:08 GMT -5 hoyalove4ever said:

The "important stuff" is how the coach handles himself and runs the program. The on-court results are desirable and aspirational, but not mandatory. And that is okay, and no, it does not mean that we have to move to the Ivy League. We are in the Big East and have competed and won that way- as recently as a number four seed in 2015 and a league championship in 2013, using the same set of principles. We have done it before and can do it again, and should stick by the guy who has gotten it done many times before even when times are tough.

There are those who are proud when Georgetown has certain results on the basketball court, and then there are those are are proud and happy to be Hoya fans, period. I am in the latter group and feel great about it.

On the court results are "aspirational"? If that is truly what you feel, Ivy League may be too competitive for you---lets just go DIII, and call it a day. It is necessary, but certainly not sufficient that we have a coach/program that runs itself in an ethical manner. But we can bring someone in for $60k a year to do that---we are paying JTIII one of the most lucrative contracts in college basketball because he is supposed to ALSO bring us top tier on-court results.

We are all proud alumni--but we are fans of Hoya basketball because we want/expect it to succeed on the court. How many die hard fans of Catholic University basketball do you know? But when the coach/staff apparently demonstrate ineptitude in the facet of their job for which they are most generously compensated--i.e. winning--even the most die hard reasonably become frustrated and enough frustration without seeing accountability leads to tuning out. This is not an issue of being a fair weather fan, this is an issue of voting with your pocketbooks.

I suspect most of the JT3 apologists are so close to the situation (i.e. Pres of Hoya Hoops Club, etc.) that objectivity is very difficult. I completely understand that position. The fact that JT3 is very likeable (unlike say his father) makes it more difficult to advocate his ouster.

But we all have the right to expect more given his compensation level.

[smokeyjack]

Jan 8, 2017 15:11:40 GMT -5 royski said:

Apparently $3m per year is a reasonable salary for running a program where kids don't get arrested. After all, that's the really important thing. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.

Lots of insanity among the sheep.
I really would like to know where the alumni base shakes out as a whole on the issue. I know we have a much more patient and conservative fan base than most schools, but I suspect a strong majority of the alumni base is pro-regime change at this point.

[drquigley]

I have to agree that a coach of any sport at any level must have as his first responsibility running a clean program whose athletes reflect well on the school. After that it really depends on what the University and alumni expect. But what they expect has to be reflected in what the coach is paid. So I think it only fair to expect JT3 to win more than half his BE games, get to the NCAA tourney every other year, and make a deep run every 4 or 5 years. That said, I will give JT3 one more year after this. But a third miserable year and I don't think it unreasonable to demand the GU release him.

[hoyajinx]

Jan 8, 2017 15:21:04 GMT -5 smokeyjack said:

Jan 8, 2017 15:11:40 GMT -5 royski said:

Apparently $3m per year is a reasonable salary for running a program where kids don't get arrested. After all, that's the really important thing. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.

Lots of insanity among the sheep.
I really would like to know where the alumni base shakes out as a whole on the issue. I know we have a much more patient and conservative fan base than most schools, but I suspect a strong majority of the alumni base is pro-regime change at this point.

Of those alumni with whom I frequently interact, and I know this is clearly anecdotal, exactly zero think that JTIII is still the right guy for the job. This includes two former managers and the group with whom I would show up for games at 4 when the doors didn't open until 6:45 just so we were ensured the front row. And this wasn't even when we were actually good (1997-2001 except for the surprising 2001 run). Most from that group have completely and utterly lost interest and hope that this will turn around. I am the last holdout from a diehard group that still makes a point to watch every game. With the product as it is, I may not be able to hold out much longer. It's just not fun. I have limited time, and it just may not be worth it to devote any of that limited time to something that I simply no longer really enjoy.

[calhoya]

Why isn't running a successful program equally as important as running a clean program and emphasizing academics? It's three prongs and the coach should be evaluated on his ability to fulfill each objective each year. Besides let's not pretend that winning is not first and foremost on the mind of this coach and this program. It's not merely aspirational. Josh Smith and many others were not brought in for any other reason. They were not academic reclamation projects. Nor are each of the 4 and 5 star kids that the Hoyas recruit each year.

I guess what I find most troubling is that to some there appear to be only two camps: the haters and the apologists. Yet to many of us, particularly those of us who are minorities or mixed race, the issue is agonizing. We do not want to lose the connection between Big John and the university. We admire the effort of his son to continue that tradition. But no one should be beyond scrutiny, even at jeopardy of losing an historic partnership with these men.

[DanMcQ]

Jan 8, 2017 16:05:36 GMT -5 calhoya said:

Why isn't running a successful program equally as important as running a clean program and emphasizing academics? It's three prongs and the coach should be evaluated on his ability to fulfill each objective each year. Besides let's not pretend that winning is not first and foremost on the mind of this coach and this program. It's not merely aspirational. Josh Smith and many others were not brought in for any other reason. They were not academic reclamation projects. Nor are each of the 4 and 5 star kids that the Hoyas recruit each year.

I guess what I find most troubling is that to some there appear to be only two camps: the haters and the apologists. Yet to many of us, particularly those of us who are minorities or mixed race, the issue is agonizing. We do not want to lose the connection between Big John and the university. We admire the effort of his son to continue that tradition. But no one should be beyond scrutiny, even at jeopardy of losing an historic partnership with these men.

Excellent points. There is room here for both view points and civil discussion, yet we have increasingly pejorative posts appearing here culminating in what I consider one of the most personally offensive things ever posted here today in which a poster who should know better compared people with a differing viewpoint to supporters of Nazi Germany. Aside from unacceptably trivializing one of the most heinous atrocites in human history by comparing it to supporters of a basketball program, that kind of disrespect for other posters here is way out of bounds.

I get it - we all care for this program, most of us probably to an unhealthy degree. Some of us need to dial the language back A LOT and remember that this board is out there for all to see, including the staff and the student athletes on the team, and think about the impact of the words we post on other posters and the student athletes before just firing off posts.

[smokeyjack]

Jan 8, 2017 16:05:36 GMT -5 calhoya said:

Why isn't running a successful program equally as important as running a clean program and emphasizing academics? It's three prongs and the coach should be evaluated on his ability to fulfill each objective each year. Besides let's not pretend that winning is not first and foremost on the mind of this coach and this program. It's not merely aspirational. Josh Smith and many others were not brought in for any other reason. They were not academic reclamation projects. Nor are each of the 4 and 5 star kids that the Hoyas recruit each year.

I guess what I find most troubling is that to some there appear to be only two camps: the haters and the apologists. Yet to many of us, particularly those of us who are minorities or mixed race, the issue is agonizing. We do not want to lose the connection between Big John and the university. We admire the effort of his son to continue that tradition. But no one should be beyond scrutiny, even at jeopardy of losing an historic partnership with these men.

I am not a hater. I am pro-regime change.
My experience is the same as that of Jinx - of the 14 guys in our group who reg went to games together and road tripped to BET, NONE still believes in JT3.

As jinx said, this is anecdotal stuff, but I suspect we are in a heavy majority. I also fear there will be total disconnect between that alumni majority and the administration when it comes to taking action. That's disappointing in and of itself, because you'd like to think the university has as much of a sense of loyalty and connection to its alumni base as one family.

[vv83]

Jan 8, 2017 16:05:36 GMT -5 calhoya said:

Why isn't running a successful program equally as important as running a clean program and emphasizing academics? It's three prongs and the coach should be evaluated on his ability to fulfill each objective each year. Besides let's not pretend that winning is not first and foremost on the mind of this coach and this program. It's not merely aspirational. Josh Smith and many others were not brought in for any other reason. They were not academic reclamation projects. Nor are each of the 4 and 5 star kids that the Hoyas recruit each year.

I guess what I find most troubling is that to some there appear to be only two camps: the haters and the apologists. Yet to many of us, particularly those of us who are minorities or mixed race, the issue is agonizing. We do not want to lose the connection between Big John and the university. We admire the effort of his son to continue that tradition. But no one should be beyond scrutiny, even at jeopardy of losing an historic partnership with these men.

Well stated. The institution and its fans are in a completely agonizing position. The Thompsons have devoted their lives to Georgetown, and have done a lot of wonderful things for the institution and the basketball program. I know we were all frustrated by the NCAA tournament losses to double digit seeds. But I bet all of us would be thrilled if we brought in a new coach who got us back to the point of losing tournament games to double digit seeds within a year or two! JTIII did a good job for close to a decade, then the bottom fell out the past two seasons. Pretty much any other program in the country would be firing their coach at the end of this season. But we are unique, for better and for worse, and it is highly unlikely that JTIII will be going anywhere until he and/or his father decide that it is time for him to give up making $3 million a year. And that is not happening, nobody gives up that kind of money voluntarily. Nobody.

So the fans and the institution are in the uniquely agonizing position of knowing a coaching change is needed, but not being able to make that change without risking the likely alienation of the two men who are responsible for the significant success of the basketball program over the past 40+ years. One of whom has a spanking new $60 million practice facility with a freaking life size statue of him in the middle of the lobby. None of this means that JTIII should not be fired. But it does mean that firing him is a lot more difficult and complicated for Georgetown than it would be for any other institution with a coach that had a similar record of failure.

Just a lousy situation. It really feels awful to be mad at/frustrated with the Thompsons. Remember back to the Esh days. I had convinced myself that it was OK to be a mediocre program as long as we did things "the right way", because that seemed like all we could hope for under Esh. then JTIII came in, and had us back in the second weekend of the tournament in two seasons. At the legendary Duke game in january 2006, I was in tears throughout much of the game (and I was a 45 year old man at the time!) as we dissected the undefeated #1 team in the country, because I realized that we were back, that Georgetown could indeed be a relevant basketball program again after having wandered out into the darkness during the late Big John/Esh years.

Well, we are back out in the darkness, and we need to bring in the next coach who can lead us back into the light. It stinks to high heaven that things have to end this way with the Thompsons (or alternately that the program has to stick with JTIII and likely remain a mess for the foreseeable future). But that is simply the reality of the situation. It seems clear that it is best to rip off the band-aid and fire JTIII, then deal with the consequences of the Thompson family reaction. But right now, no matter what the institution decides to do , it is truly agonizing for both the school and the fans.