JT III Coaching Discussion

[blueandgray]

The game has changed since 2007 (recruiting has changed, the rules have changed, style of play has changed, and finally the mindset of players have changed). Coach is trying to change with it. In many facets he has, in other aspects however he is still searching for answers.

[eagle54]

Jan 7, 2017 23:36:20 GMT -5 blueandgray said:

The game has changed since 2007 (recruiting has changed, the rules have changed, style of play has changed, and finally the mindset of players have changed). Coach is trying to change with it. In many facets he has, in other aspects however he is still searching for answers.

I get he's trying to change and searching for answers but how many people making $3m per are given that opportunity for close to a decade?  

Again it's illogical but thus is this program.  

[LCPolo18]

Jan 7, 2017 23:27:21 GMT -5 eagle54 said:

Jan 7, 2017 23:23:18 GMT -5 LCPolo18 said:

I am defending what happened in 2007, not what is currently happening with the team.

What's your point then?  he developed Jeff and Roy to make a FF and then forgot how to do it after that.  I've said they were Esh's recruits and they were and that is fact.  

My point is that your original statement was "Esh's players", and only Izzo and Sead from the final four team ever played for Esherick. That is a fact.

[calhoya]

I never thought the anger and frustration would last over 2600 miles but first thing I see getting off the plane in LA is highlights of the game. Arrrgh! I think many of us have now reached the final straw with this regime, but I see no reason to revise history to justify a coaching change. JT III has been a good coach and a fine representative of the University. His record speaks highly of his ability. However, even good coaches grow stale in their jobs and both coach and school benefit from change. Look around, they are everywhere and they ultimately succeed in a new situation. I have seen too much this week to think it can change. I hope I am wrong and will root hard every game but as I looked at a relatively empty arena today and listened to the comments in the crowd among those loyal enough to come after all the disappointment, the message is loud and clear if the university is listening ----it's time.

[eagle54]

Jan 7, 2017 23:44:32 GMT -5 LCPolo18 said:

Jan 7, 2017 23:27:21 GMT -5 eagle54 said:

What's your point then?  he developed Jeff and Roy to make a FF and then forgot how to do it after that.  I've said they were Esh's recruits and they were and that is fact.  

My point is that your original statement was "Esh's players", and only Izzo and Sead from the final four team ever played for Esherick. That is a fact.

It's not about who played for him.  It's about who signed them up.  That is fact.  You want to get into semantics it doesn't serve any purpose.  I've been clear in what I've said and it's been factual.  If you want to say III developed those players that's fine.  Maybe he did but still begs the question why he hasn't developed any other group of even higher rated recruits?  Makes him look even worse.  

Maybe he just doesn't judge high school talent well as Esh did.  He's blinded by that star system they use to tell someone how good Tre and Ike were going to be. 

[gunny]

I really like Kevin Keatts. I think he is a game changer!

[eagle54]

Jan 7, 2017 23:54:51 GMT -5 gunny said:

I really like Kevin Keatts

Gunny, I like  that and think you  should start the thread on candidates for the next coach.  It's time to get the names out there.  If this Admin can't make a decision I trust this board will give them some good ideas on where to look.  

And hey, if we hire the next guy and he's not going in the right direction we try again until we get it right.  That's called logical and what everyone else does.  And then there is illogical which is what we do.  

[gunny]

Jan 8, 2017 0:00:31 GMT -5 eagle54 said:

Jan 7, 2017 23:54:51 GMT -5 gunny said:

I really like Kevin Keatts

Gunny, I like  that and think you  should start the thread on candidates for the next coach.  It's time to get the names out there.  If this Admin can't make a decision I trust this board will give them some good ideas on where to look.  

And hey, if we hire the next guy and he's not going in the right direction we try again until we get it right.  That's called logical and what everyone else does.  And then there is illogical which is what we do.  

A lot of people at Pitt wanted him, but for whatever reason they went with Stallings. I really did some research on him and really liked what I saw. He took over a team that went 9-23 in 2013-2014. They were 18-14 in his first year (worse to first in CAA) and last year were 25-8 last year (lost in the NCAA to Duke in the first round by 8 - not a blow out that is for sure). They are 15-2 this year with a loss at Clemson (who is playing well this year) and a loss to Middle Tennessee. Was an assistant under Rick Pitino at Louisville. I watched them play twice this year. Up tempo style. Very enjoyable and successful. Also coached at Hargrave Military Academy.

[eagle54]

Jan 8, 2017 0:16:37 GMT -5 gunny said:

Jan 8, 2017 0:00:31 GMT -5 eagle54 said:

Gunny, I like  that and think you  should start the thread on candidates for the next coach.  It's time to get the names out there.  If this Admin can't make a decision I trust this board will give them some good ideas on where to look.  

And hey, if we hire the next guy and he's not going in the right direction we try again until we get it right.  That's called logical and what everyone else does.  And then there is illogical which is what we do.  

A lot of people at Pitt wanted him, but for whatever reason they went with Stallings. I really did some research on him and really liked what I saw. He took over a team that went 9-23 in 2013-2014. They were 18-14 in his first year (worse to first in CAA) and last year were 25-8 last year (lost in the NCAA to Duke in the first round by 8 - not a blow out that is for sure). They are 15-2 this year with a loss at Clemson (who is playing well this year) and a loss to Middle Tennessee. Was an assistant under Rick Pitino at Louisville. I watched them play twice this year. Up tempo style. Very enjoyable and successful. Also coached at Hargrave Military Academy.

Sounds very promising and I'm sure there are many candidates like this that we could look at.  But remember we live  in fear of anything that would be different.  It will just get better on its own.  

 - dedicated to the original apologist.  

[gunny]

Jan 8, 2017 0:22:52 GMT -5 eagle54 said:

Jan 8, 2017 0:16:37 GMT -5 gunny said:

A lot of people at Pitt wanted him, but for whatever reason they went with Stallings. I really did some research on him and really liked what I saw. He took over a team that went 9-23 in 2013-2014. They were 18-14 in his first year (worse to first in CAA) and last year were 25-8 last year (lost in the NCAA to Duke in the first round by 8 - not a blow out that is for sure). They are 15-2 this year with a loss at Clemson (who is playing well this year) and a loss to Middle Tennessee. Was an assistant under Rick Pitino at Louisville. I watched them play twice this year. Up tempo style. Very enjoyable and successful. Also coached at Hargrave Military Academy.

Sounds very promising and I'm sure there are many candidates like this that we could look at.  But remember we live  in fear of anything that would be different.  It will just get better on its own.  

 - dedicated to the original apologist.  

I really want JTIII to succeed, but I also realize when things are just not going to get better and when it is time to make a change. His conference record in the New Big East is subpar and that is being nice. I think he is a very good man, a great representative of the University, great role model, and somewhat successful. However, he has been unable to adapt to the current game especially in one of the best conferences in the country. People talk about losing Waters. That may be true, but you also have to give a new coach the opportunity to re-recruit Waters and the rest of the team. If they don't want to buy in like Green and company did when JTIII took over for Esh then so be it. I am not looking to make a change just to make a change. I want to make a change because I do not think things are going to get any better. Heck at this point I would rather be the upset pick in everyone's bracket than being irrelevant. Like it or not, but Georgetown basketball has become irrelevant.

[eagle54]

Jan 8, 2017 0:44:55 GMT -5 gunny said:

Jan 8, 2017 0:22:52 GMT -5 eagle54 said:

Sounds very promising and I'm sure there are many candidates like this that we could look at.  But remember we live  in fear of anything that would be different.  It will just get better on its own.  

 - dedicated to the original apologist.  

I really want JTIII to succeed, but I also realize when things are just not going to get better and when it is time to make a change. His conference record in the New Big East is subpar and that is being nice. I think he is a very good man, a great representative of the University, great role model, and somewhat successful. However, he has been unable to adapt to the current game especially in one of the best conferences in the country. People talk about losing Waters. That may be true, but you also have to give a new coach the opportunity to re-recruit Waters and the rest of the team. If they don't want to buy in like Green and company did when JTIII took over for Esh then so be it. I am not looking to make a change just to make a change. I want to make a change because I do not think things are going to get any better. Heck at this point I would rather be the upset pick in everyone's bracket than being irrelevant. Like it or not, but Georgetown basketball has become irrelevant.

Well said.  We are in a downward spiral that is unlikely to correct itself unless something changes.  Remember the good old days when we were just a high seed that suffered a very humiliating upset.  Now we will struggle to be .500 again in a lesser league.  

[hoyalove4ever]

This "downward spiral" stuff is hilarious to me. It is less than two years! I do not think even three years a spiral makes.

That said, as fans, we may have to take some massive proverbial punches to the face, gut, head, etc. I am ready, willing, and able to take those- while laughing and blowing kisses.

The really sad things is- Monday night is the epitome of when Verizon should be PACKED beyond capacity and loud as all get out. As fans, we should show up and show out to give the teams our support even when it is down. We should be happy and proud to do so. Regardless of what happens- blowout win or loss- we should stay until the end and show out support. Our position as fans should NOT be conditional.

Before each game, I try to imagine the worst possible outcome- for instance, we lose 148-36, and Mullin empties his bench for the last ten minutes. I remind myself that I need to be a positive supporter of the team even in the unlikely event that happens. As a fan, my only job is to support the team- win or lose. I would suggest that those who cannot do that stop being fans and following Hoya hoops.

[Bigs"R"Us]

I just don't see a scenario where JT3 is ousted. We could go winless in the Big East and he would be back. Therefore the solution lies in recruiting better players. Screw rankings, get players that compete and put the ball in the hoop. Tired of plodding big man projects and shooters who can't shoot.

[smokeyjack]

Jan 7, 2017 23:40:50 GMT -5 eagle54 said:

Jan 7, 2017 23:36:20 GMT -5 blueandgray said:

The game has changed since 2007 (recruiting has changed, the rules have changed, style of play has changed, and finally the mindset of players have changed). Coach is trying to change with it. In many facets he has, in other aspects however he is still searching for answers.

I get he's trying to change and searching for answers but how many people making $3m per are given that opportunity for close to a decade?  

Again it's illogical but thus is this program.  

Correct. If he was not named Thompson, he would have been dismissed after last season due to repeated postseason failures and irrefutable program regression.

While this season's considerable uptick in FT attempts shows that this staff has awakened to 21st century hoops, it's far too little too late. They can't motivate. They don't develop or recruit leaders. Their situational play calling is comical - like pickup at the Y bad. And there is now such a palpable culture of failure pervading the program that I can't believe anyone would lobby for their retention without a deeper agenda.

Coaching is about assessment and response, recruiting and mentoring. This staff has done a passable job in the recruiting department. They have been miserable failures in the other two categories for the lion's share of the last decade.

How many times a season do you walk away marveling at a gameplan or even a single play? If the answer isn't in the double-digits, you don't have the right coach.

[smokeyjack]

Jan 8, 2017 10:18:07 GMT -5 hoyalove4ever said:

This "downward spiral" stuff is hilarious to me. It is less than two years! I do not think even three years a spiral makes.

Our position as fans should NOT be conditional.

Have you lost your mind? There is literally nothing in life unconditional outside of parental love - nothing. Our entire value structure as a culture would break down if we bought into your unconditional brand of crazy.

Once again, we get that you support JT3 and are opposed to the majority of fans and alums I know who can't believe he's still employed. That's fine. We can agree to disagree on JT3's performance.

But you can't believe that support should be unconditional? You just can't. That's insanity!

Seriously, leaders at all levels of society not only should be held accountable, they must be held accountable. It's our duty as members of a responsible society to hold leadership accountable.

The mindless, rah-rah sheep mentality is not only irresponsible, it's dangerous. From Nazi Germany to Joe Paterno, history is rife with the perils of blind loyalty.

If we are to succeed in any venture as a people, our support and value system must be conditional on every level.

What do you do for a living hoyalove4ever?

[eagle54]

Jan 8, 2017 10:18:07 GMT -5 hoyalove4ever said:

This "downward spiral" stuff is hilarious to me. It is less than two years! I do not think even three years a spiral makes.

That said, as fans, we may have to take some massive proverbial punches to the face, gut, head, etc. I am ready, willing, and able to take those- while laughing and blowing kisses.

The really sad things is- Monday night is the epitome of when Verizon should be PACKED beyond capacity and loud as all get out. As fans, we should show up and show out to give the teams our support even when it is down. We should be happy and proud to do so. Regardless of what happens- blowout win or loss- we should stay until the end and show out support. Our position as fans should NOT be conditional.

Before each game, I try to imagine the worst possible outcome- for instance, we lose 148-36, and Mullin empties his bench for the last ten minutes. I remind myself that I need to be a positive supporter of the team even in the unlikely event that happens. As a fan, my only job is to support the team- win or lose. I would suggest that those who cannot do that stop being fans and following Hoya hoops.

I think most did stop being fans. Have you actually seen one of our home games and not the ones in your fantasy world for Monday. It may just be you, the opposing fanbase and Big John sitting there soon.

There's still some of us hanging on hoping we can correct this and know it won't happen without a different direction.

[DanMcQ]

Jan 8, 2017 11:07:30 GMT -5 smokeyjack said:

Jan 8, 2017 10:18:07 GMT -5 hoyalove4ever said:

This "downward spiral" stuff is hilarious to me. It is less than two years! I do not think even three years a spiral makes.

Our position as fans should NOT be conditional.

Have you lost your mind? There is literally nothing in life unconditional outside of parental love - nothing. Our entire value structure as a culture would break down if we bought into your unconditional brand of crazy.

Once again, we get that you support JT3 and are opposed to the majority of fans and alums I know who can't believe he's still employed. That's fine. We can agree to disagree on JT3's performance.

But you can't believe that support should be unconditional? You just can't. That's insanity!

Seriously, leaders at all levels of society not only should be held accountable, they must be held accountable. It's our duty as members of a responsible society to hold leadership accountable.

The mindless, rah-rah sheep mentality is not only irresponsible, it's dangerous. From Nazi Germany to Joe Paterno, history is rife with the perils of blind loyalty.

If we are to succeed in any venture as a people, our support and value system must be conditional on every level.

What do you do for a living hoyalove4ever?

"Nazi Germany"? You really went there? Your hyperbole has totally jumped the shark.

[hoyafan2014]

In 2004 I would say that the program was spiraling downward. At that time, we made the NCAA tournament in 1 of the prior 7 years. Since then, with JTIII, we have made the NCAA Tournament 8 of 12 years. I am disappointed with last year and this year (so far) but I think that the current state of the program is better than 2004. 2012 and 2013 surpassed my expectations. March was disappointing those years, but those years were a lot of fun. 2012, we lost Wright and Freeman, yet we were wonderfully solid that year. In 2013, we were ranked as high as fifth in the nation. Since the Alonzo Mourning days, there have only 3 years that we cracked the top 5, and two of them were under JTIII. In 2014, Trawick's injury did not help, nor did Whittington's. Joshua Smith's suspension doomed us. In 2015, we had a solid year. Last year was bad. This year is not off to a good start. All in all, three of the last six years we're good.
In 2004, we had a little known coach take over our program. With crummy facilities and a curriculum that most top high school players don't care about or want to avoid, he took us to eight NCAA tournaments, a Final Four, and two years where we were ranked in the top 5. In 2004, everybody on this board would have killed to have this happen over the next 12 years . I understand that people are concerned. I am concerned too. I do not think that it is time to panic yet.
For the people on this board, who think that we should have better recruits on this team, do you think that this is JTIII's fault or do you think that Georgetown has been a hard school to recruit for in the past decade? If you do think that it is JTIII's fault, then why?

[hoyalove4ever]

Jan 8, 2017 11:07:30 GMT -5 smokeyjack said:

Jan 8, 2017 10:18:07 GMT -5 hoyalove4ever said:

This "downward spiral" stuff is hilarious to me. It is less than two years! I do not think even three years a spiral makes.

Our position as fans should NOT be conditional.

Have you lost your mind? There is literally nothing in life unconditional outside of parental love - nothing. Our entire value structure as a culture would break down if we bought into your unconditional brand of crazy.

Once again, we get that you support JT3 and are opposed to the majority of fans and alums I know who can't believe he's still employed. That's fine. We can agree to disagree on JT3's performance.

But you can't believe that support should be unconditional? You just can't. That's insanity!

Seriously, leaders at all levels of society not only should be held accountable, they must be held accountable. It's our duty as members of a responsible society to hold leadership accountable.

The mindless, rah-rah sheep mentality is not only irresponsible, it's dangerous. From Nazi Germany to Joe Paterno, history is rife with the perils of blind loyalty.

If we are to succeed in any venture as a people, our support and value system must be conditional on every level.

What do you do for a living hoyalove4ever?

Being a fan means being a fanatic supporter of a team. The team owes the fan NOTHING. The fan commits to supporting the team NO MATTER WHAT.

There are no Nazis or child molesters here. We are talking about a college basketball program. Everyone agrees that the really important stuff, in terms of integrity, etc., is being done right. As long as that is the case, I will be happy and proud to support the team.

And my job? I am a trial lawyer.

[Highsmith]

Jan 8, 2017 10:18:07 GMT -5 hoyalove4ever said:

This "downward spiral" stuff is hilarious to me. It is less than two years! I do not think even three years a spiral makes.

That said, as fans, we may have to take some massive proverbial punches to the face, gut, head, etc. I am ready, willing, and able to take those- while laughing and blowing kisses.

The really sad things is- Monday night is the epitome of when Verizon should be PACKED beyond capacity and loud as all get out. As fans, we should show up and show out to give the teams our support even when it is down. We should be happy and proud to do so. Regardless of what happens- blowout win or loss- we should stay until the end and show out support. Our position as fans should NOT be conditional.

Before each game, I try to imagine the worst possible outcome- for instance, we lose 148-36, and Mullin empties his bench for the last ten minutes. I remind myself that I need to be a positive supporter of the team even in the unlikely event that happens. As a fan, my only job is to support the team- win or lose. I would suggest that those who cannot do that stop being fans and following Hoya hoops.

Here is what many may see as the downward spiral...

2006-07- 30-7, won the BE Regular Season, won the BET, made it to the Final 4

2007-08- 28-6, won the BE Regular Season, Lost in the BET Finals, lost to Davidson in the 2nd round of the NCAAs....the first disappointment of the post season

2008-09- 16-15, 12th in the BE, Lost in the 1st round of the BET and the 1st round of the NIT.....pretty abysmal year for a roster that had Chris Wright, Austin Freeman, Jessie Sapp, Greg Monroe, Jason Clark and DaJuan Summers. However, other than losing to St John's twice....most of the losses were not embarrassing, there were just too many of them.

2009-10- 23-11, 7th in the BE, lost in the BET Finals, lost to Ohio in the 1st round of the NCAAs......a good recovery record-wise, although the BE season wasn't the greatest. BET Finals was good, but considering Davidson had Steph Curry, this Ohio loss was the 1st of the truly embarrassing losses we have suffered.

2010-11- 21-11, 8th in the BE, lost our 1st game in the BET, lost in the 1st round of the NCAAs to VCU......a solid record with no real embarrassing losses in the regular season, but no post season wins for the 2nd time under JTIII

So far, I am seeing the beginnings of a downward spiral.....other than the BET finals in 09-10, there have been no post-season wins for 3 years at this point. The team that won the BE regular season 2 years in a row has now struggled to stay in the middle of the pack for 3 years as well. The embarrassing regular season losses haven't really been there yet (other than 1 or 2 "should-wins" in the BE), but the post-season embarrassments are starting to pile up.

2011-12- 24-9, 4th in the BE, lost our 2nd game in the BET, lost in the 2nd round of the NCAAs to NC St when they were a double digit seed.......This team took a turn in the right direction. There was a better overall season, a better BE season and at least a little post-season success, but things still ended in a somewhat embarrassing fashion based on expectations. It was a step in the right direction, however.

2012-13- 25-7, 2nd in the BE, lost our 2nd game in the BET, lost in the 1st round of the NCAAs to FGCU......This was a strange season. At first glance, it looks like a great regular season, but the signs were there that the post season could be crushing. This was the season with the 37-36 win against Tenn, 46-40 against Towson, 49-48 loss to Marquette, 73-45 loss to Pitt, 61-58 loss to South Florida, etc. Yes we won lots of games, but I still remember being worried about this team that struggled so often to score points. Otto was incredible this season as we all know.....I really think he covered up a LOT. Not to mention the FGCU loss was a huge hit to JTIII and the Hoya program. It can be argued whether this signaled a continuation of the downward spiral, but I think many fans would say it does.....especially when you look at many of the team's other performances during the season and how poorly they often played in wins.

2013-14- 18-15, 7th in the New BE, lost in the 1st round of the BET to DePaul(12-21 DePaul), lost in the 2nd round of the NIT.......This was where the post-season failures began to leak over into the regular season.....the loss to Northeastern and the stretch of losing 6 out of 7 BE games. We are still heading downwards, that is for sure.

2014-15- 22-11, 2nd in the New BE, lost in our 2nd game in the BET, lost in the 2nd round of the NCAAs........This was an improvement over the past year, but the struggles were still evident. We had the opposing coach in the NCAAs guarantee a win and if not for the heroics of Bradley Hayes, they may have gotten it. Our BET woes continued....now marking 5 years since winning more than 1 game there.

I don't think there is any doubt that 2015-16 and this season have been very poor. A losing record last season and heading that way now. 06-07 and 07-08 saw the Hoyas as National powers. We won the BE, we won the BET or at least made it to the Finals and had success in the NCAAs. The loss to Davidson and Steph Curry could have been easily forgotten if not for what happened after. 08-09 was not good.....a huge step down from the previous two years. 09-10 and 10-11 were better, but a definite downgrade from where we were. Post season success was almost non-existent and our place in the BE pecking order had dropped considerably. The Otto years were certainly more successful as far as regular seasons go than any since 07-08. However, the post-season failures continued and became more and more embarrassing, especially considering the regular season success. In addition, despite the strong record, the Hoyas often failed the eye test during those seasons.....many of the issues we see today were there then, but were covered up how great Otto and to some degree Markel were. After Otto, things have only gotten worse. The 14-15 season was solid, but again, the eye test showed that things were not heading in the right direction. Finally, we find ourselves where we are today. The records have been an up and down line, but the overall trend has been down. The post-season success line has an even bigger downward line. Not to mention where the perception of the Hoya program is today compared to where it was 10 years ago. Today we are a joke. Announcers and opposing players openly question our effort and toughness. If all of this together doesn't represent a downward spiral, then I don't know what does.