JT III Coaching Discussion

[adlai]

Jan 7, 2017 15:36:55 GMT -5 hoyalove4ever said:

I bet you believe it is easy to win Big East championships and make it to a Final Four.

No one says it's easy, but if one has competent coaching and some form of actual strategy it is possible. So, in other words no hope for this staff going forward...

[guru]

Jan 7, 2017 15:36:55 GMT -5 hoyalove4ever said:

I bet you believe it is easy to win Big East championships and make it to a Final Four.

If that were happening maybe you'd have a point.

[hoya2x2010]

Jan 7, 2017 9:19:26 GMT -5 EasyEd said:

Jan 6, 2017 21:35:00 GMT -5 eagle54 said:

Easy, good bless you and I know you will be here to see me doing the right thing to demand we get what we deserve and not get told this is all we can be.  However, when I first starting reading this I thought you would put me in the covert camp until I saw my name so you must think I'm in the overt camp.  I like to think I'm fair and balanced but balanced has gone way off course around here and I'm trying to get back to center.   

Eagle, you are the definition of overt and the opposite of fair and balanced. You remind me of a little kid who wants his way and who keeps crying and lashing out at anyone who dares to keep you from getting your way. Do you actually think anyone on this board does't know you want a new coach? Are you looking for a world record on posts that say the same thing? Please don't continue to volume post the same thing on every thread. It is really annoying.

EasyEd from the top rope!!! I don't necessarily agree with your wish to stay the course, but I appreciated this post and I appreciate you nonetheless.

[hoyalove4ever]

Jan 7, 2017 15:40:41 GMT -5 guru said:

Jan 7, 2017 15:36:55 GMT -5 hoyalove4ever said:

I bet you believe it is easy to win Big East championships and make it to a Final Four.

If that were happening maybe you'd have a point.

But this coach already accomplished those things. The difference is that I think that should give him considerable job security, and you do not. But those are accomplishments few coaches achieve. We have a coach who has done that and many so-called fans want to run him out. That is amazing to me, but I will simply respectfully agree to disagree.

[hoya2x2010]

Jan 7, 2017 15:48:45 GMT -5 hoyalove4ever said:

Jan 7, 2017 15:40:41 GMT -5 guru said:

If that were happening maybe you'd have a point.

But this coach already accomplished those things. The difference is that I think that should give him considerable job security, and you do not. But those are accomplishments few coaches achieve. We have a coach who has done that and many so-called fans want to run him out. That is amazing to me, but I will simply respectfully agree to disagree.

Certainly has accomplished a lot, but he's also been highly, highly compensated. I could easily guide this team to an 0-4 conference record for a fraction of the cost. Seriously though. We're 0-4, and not even that surprised...bad sign.

[royski]

Jan 7, 2017 15:48:45 GMT -5 hoyalove4ever said:

Jan 7, 2017 15:40:41 GMT -5 guru said:

If that were happening maybe you'd have a point.

But this coach already accomplished those things. The difference is that I think that should give him considerable job security, and you do not. But those are accomplishments few coaches achieve. We have a coach who has done that and many so-called fans want to run him out. That is amazing to me, but I will simply respectfully agree to disagree.

They gave him considerable job security. That's why he still has a job. Accomplishments from a decade ago don't give you blanket immunity from criticism forever, especially when the program has become THIS much of a laughingstock.

[hoyainla]

Are we sure JT III isn't stealth tanking to get a high draft pick? That's what it seems like to me. The 76'rs front office has to be hoping he gets fired soon. He will help the "process".

[strummer8526]

Can someone analyze the rate at which we score coming out of timeouts? I would love to see that number as compared against other coaches. For all I know, it would show JTIII has an average or above-average success rate. But as someone who follows this team, I think we will find that this team is abysmal coming out of timeouts, and that the same has been true across multiple different rosters.

[eagle54]

What are the Hoyas worst three records in the past 50 or so years? I'd be interested in following how we track to those. I need something to keep my attention.

[eagle54]

Jan 7, 2017 9:19:26 GMT -5 EasyEd said:

Jan 6, 2017 21:35:00 GMT -5 eagle54 said:

Easy, good bless you and I know you will be here to see me doing the right thing to demand we get what we deserve and not get told this is all we can be.  However, when I first starting reading this I thought you would put me in the covert camp until I saw my name so you must think I'm in the overt camp.  I like to think I'm fair and balanced but balanced has gone way off course around here and I'm trying to get back to center.   

Eagle, you are the definition of overt and the opposite of fair and balanced. You remind me of a little kid who wants his way and who keeps crying and lashing out at anyone who dares to keep you from getting your way. Do you actually think anyone on this board does't know you want a new coach? Are you looking for a world record on posts that say the same thing? Please don't continue to volume post the same thing on every thread. It is really annoying.

That was my New Year's resolution Easy.  How am I doing so far?  I tried to stay off the in game discussion but was equally disgusted with the way we squandered another home loss.  They talk about how hard it is to win on the road in the BE but somehow that doesn't apply to teams that play us.  

[LCPolo18]

Jan 4, 2017 22:31:35 GMT -5 eagle54 said:

What would need to happen for the tired majority on this board to change the coach?

A. Could never happen since we made the Final Four in 2007 with Esh's players.

Below is a breakdown of the 2007 Final Four team:

• The only players on the Final Four team that played for Craig Esherick were Sead Dizdarevic and Kenny Izzo
• The recruits that JT3 inherited were Tyler Crawford (3 star), Jeff Green (3 star), and Roy Hibbert (3 star)
• The players on the team that JT3 brought in were Jonathan Wallace, Patrick Ewing Jr (3 star), DaJuan Summers (5 star), Jessie Sapp (4 star), Vernon Macklin (4 star), Jeremiah Rivers (3 star), and Octavius Spann (4 star)

Additionally, keep in mind that a new coach essentially has to re-recruit the committed incoming players. So it wasn’t a given that Jeff and Roy would have stayed with Georgetown when JT3 was hired. And keep in mind that these were not top recruits. They were unheralded 3 star recruits that developed into future NBA players.

[eagle54]

Jan 7, 2017 22:08:55 GMT -5 LCPolo18 said:

Jan 4, 2017 22:31:35 GMT -5 eagle54 said:

What would need to happen for the tired majority on this board to change the coach?

A. Could never happen since we made the Final Four in 2007 with Esh's players.

Below is a breakdown of the 2007 Final Four team:

• The only players on the Final Four team that played for Craig Esherick were Sead Dizdarevic and Kenny Izzo
• The recruits that JT3 inherited were Tyler Crawford (3 star), Jeff Green (3 star), and Roy Hibbert (3 star)
• The players on the team that JT3 brought in were Jonathan Wallace, Patrick Ewing Jr (3 star), DaJuan Summers (5 star), Jessie Sapp (4 star), Vernon Macklin (4 star), Jeremiah Rivers (3 star), and Octavius Spann (4 star)

Additionally, keep in mind that a new coach essentially has to re-recruit the committed incoming players. So it wasn’t a given that Jeff and Roy would have stayed with Georgetown when JT3 was hired. And keep in mind that these were not top recruits. They were unheralded 3 star recruits that developed into future NBA players.

Take Jeff Green off that team and we lose in the first weekend.  That's before even considering Roy's contributions.  

I think it's proven out as we've not had success since Jeff left.  

[LCPolo18]

Jan 7, 2017 22:13:29 GMT -5 eagle54 said:

Jan 7, 2017 22:08:55 GMT -5 LCPolo18 said:

Below is a breakdown of the 2007 Final Four team:

• The only players on the Final Four team that played for Craig Esherick were Sead Dizdarevic and Kenny Izzo
• The recruits that JT3 inherited were Tyler Crawford (3 star), Jeff Green (3 star), and Roy Hibbert (3 star)
• The players on the team that JT3 brought in were Jonathan Wallace, Patrick Ewing Jr (3 star), DaJuan Summers (5 star), Jessie Sapp (4 star), Vernon Macklin (4 star), Jeremiah Rivers (3 star), and Octavius Spann (4 star)

Additionally, keep in mind that a new coach essentially has to re-recruit the committed incoming players. So it wasn’t a given that Jeff and Roy would have stayed with Georgetown when JT3 was hired. And keep in mind that these were not top recruits. They were unheralded 3 star recruits that developed into future NBA players.

Take Jeff Green off that team and we lose in the first weekend.  That's before even considering Roy's contributions.  

I think it's proven out as we've not had success since Jeff left.  

I agree with you, but that wasn't my point. Jeff and Roy were not top recruits and they never played for Esherick. So we can't discount the development that they experienced under JT3, and we can't forget about the other players that JT3 brought into the program to make that team what it was.

[eagle54]

Jan 7, 2017 22:21:34 GMT -5 LCPolo18 said:

Jan 7, 2017 22:13:29 GMT -5 eagle54 said:

Take Jeff Green off that team and we lose in the first weekend.  That's before even considering Roy's contributions.  

I think it's proven out as we've not had success since Jeff left.  

I agree with you, but that wasn't my point. Jeff and Roy were not top recruits and they never played for Esherick. So we can't discount the development that they experienced under JT3, and we can't forget about the other players that JT3 brought into the program to make that team what it was.

Look the star thing doesn't matter.  I give Esh extra credit for identifying those guys as players if they were under rated as high school players.  We as a program should've learned by now the rating of HS players is not an exact science as evidenced by our most recent transfer out.  

Your point on development would have weight if we'd have shown we ever developed another group to succeed in March after that group and not had our hearts ripped out every year since then.   Hasn't happened so I tend to lean to my statement that they were Esh's players.   Jeff was a special player that carried that team in my opinion.  Fact is he wasn't a III recruit.  Just facts. 

Greg and Otto were very nice recruits but didn't get it done at the college level like Jeff did.  Just facts as they'll both have nice NBA careers but both left on a low note.  

[This Just In]

Jan 7, 2017 22:30:10 GMT -5 eagle54 said:

Jan 7, 2017 22:21:34 GMT -5 LCPolo18 said:

I agree with you, but that wasn't my point. Jeff and Roy were not top recruits and they never played for Esherick. So we can't discount the development that they experienced under JT3, and we can't forget about the other players that JT3 brought into the program to make that team what it was.

Look the star thing doesn't matter.  I give Esh extra credit for identifying those guys as players if they were under rated as high school players.  We as a program should've learned by now the rating of HS players is not an exact science as evidenced by our most recent transfer out.  

Your point on development would have weight if we'd have shown we ever developed another group to succeed in March after that group and not had our hearts ripped out every year since then.   Hasn't happened so I tend to lean to my statement that they were Esh's players.   Jeff was a special player that carried that team in my opinion.  Fact is he wasn't a III recruit.  Just facts. 

Greg and Otto were very nice recruits but didn't get it done at the college level like Jeff did.  Just facts as they'll both have nice NBA careers but both left on a low note.  

Sad that the discussion of a deep run in the NCAA's is a decade ago.
I saw someone mention that the the Elite 4 is hard to beat, but realistically the team is only competing with the Bottom 3 for the 2nd year in a row.
Further sad that the program could sink to 3 straight years of sub .500 play before any consideration of the direction actually takes place.

[eagle54]

Jan 7, 2017 22:49:23 GMT -5 This Just In said:

Jan 7, 2017 22:30:10 GMT -5 eagle54 said:

Look the star thing doesn't matter.  I give Esh extra credit for identifying those guys as players if they were under rated as high school players.  We as a program should've learned by now the rating of HS players is not an exact science as evidenced by our most recent transfer out.  

Your point on development would have weight if we'd have shown we ever developed another group to succeed in March after that group and not had our hearts ripped out every year since then.   Hasn't happened so I tend to lean to my statement that they were Esh's players.   Jeff was a special player that carried that team in my opinion.  Fact is he wasn't a III recruit.  Just facts. 

Greg and Otto were very nice recruits but didn't get it done at the college level like Jeff did.  Just facts as they'll both have nice NBA careers but both left on a low note.  

Sad that the discussion of a deep run in the NCAA's is a decade ago.
I saw someone mention that the the Elite 4 is hard to beat, but realistically the team is only competing with the Bottom 3 for the 2nd year in a row.
Further sad that the program could sink to 3 straight years of sub .500 play before any consideration of the direction actually takes place.

It's mind numbing to think people are still here defending this with a straight face.  We are in a watered down conference from the old BE.  Say whatever you want but that's the truth.  We are now at the very bottom of that league and will finish there.  I think us continuing our assumptions about sweeping SJU and DePaul are typical of the arrogance that should have left this board a long time ago.  We are bad and there is no light.  I get that this board thinks the popular thing to do is just keep defending what we are doing and that makes you a better fan but I'd argue the opposite. Stand up for yourselves for once and have a friggin ounce of confidence in this school's brand and correct it.  There will be nothing left if we just continue on this path as it's clear our program is lost and there is no one to right that ship.  As far as our coach, I think he's a good man and possibly a good coach but might just need a reset.  It happens in all walks of big time sports except our irrational experiment where we don't even try to fix what is happening.  

[This Just In]

Jan 7, 2017 22:57:57 GMT -5 eagle54 said:

Jan 7, 2017 22:49:23 GMT -5 This Just In said:

Sad that the discussion of a deep run in the NCAA's is a decade ago.
I saw someone mention that the the Elite 4 is hard to beat, but realistically the team is only competing with the Bottom 3 for the 2nd year in a row.
Further sad that the program could sink to 3 straight years of sub .500 play before any consideration of the direction actually takes place.

It's mind numbing to think people are still here defending this with a straight face.  We are in a watered down conference from the old BE.  Say whatever you want but that's the truth.  We are now at the very bottom of that league and will finish there.  I think us continuing our assumptions about sweeping SJU and DePaul are typical of the arrogance that should have left this board a long time ago.  We are bad and there is no light.  I get that this board thinks the popular thing to do is just keep defending what we are doing and that makes you a better fan but I'd argue the opposite. Stand up for yourselves for once and have a friggin ounce of confidence in this school's brand and correct it.  There will be nothing left if we just continue on this path as it's clear our program is lost and there is no one to right that ship.  As far as our coach, I think he's a good man and possibly a good coach but might just need a reset.  It happens in all walks of big time sports except our irrational experiment where we don't even try to fix what is happening.  

At one point in time over the last 10 years people would clamor that JTIII was in the top 5 best coaches in the country.
Right now JTIII is not in the top 5 of best coaches in the BE.
I don't know where he would rank as a coach right now.

[LCPolo18]

Jan 7, 2017 22:57:57 GMT -5 eagle54 said:

Jan 7, 2017 22:49:23 GMT -5 This Just In said:

Sad that the discussion of a deep run in the NCAA's is a decade ago.
I saw someone mention that the the Elite 4 is hard to beat, but realistically the team is only competing with the Bottom 3 for the 2nd year in a row.
Further sad that the program could sink to 3 straight years of sub .500 play before any consideration of the direction actually takes place.

It's mind numbing to think people are still here defending this with a straight face.  We are in a watered down conference from the old BE.  Say whatever you want but that's the truth.  We are now at the very bottom of that league and will finish there.  I think us continuing our assumptions about sweeping SJU and DePaul are typical of the arrogance that should have left this board a long time ago.  We are bad and there is no light.  I get that this board thinks the popular thing to do is just keep defending what we are doing and that makes you a better fan but I'd argue the opposite. Stand up for yourselves for once and have a friggin ounce of confidence in this school's brand and correct it.  There will be nothing left if we just continue on this path as it's clear our program is lost and there is no one to right that ship.  As far as our coach, I think he's a good man and possibly a good coach but might just need a reset.  It happens in all walks of big time sports except our irrational experiment where we don't even try to fix what is happening.  

I am defending what happened in 2007, not what is currently happening with the team.

[eagle54]

Jan 7, 2017 23:10:03 GMT -5 This Just In said:

Jan 7, 2017 22:57:57 GMT -5 eagle54 said:

It's mind numbing to think people are still here defending this with a straight face.  We are in a watered down conference from the old BE.  Say whatever you want but that's the truth.  We are now at the very bottom of that league and will finish there.  I think us continuing our assumptions about sweeping SJU and DePaul are typical of the arrogance that should have left this board a long time ago.  We are bad and there is no light.  I get that this board thinks the popular thing to do is just keep defending what we are doing and that makes you a better fan but I'd argue the opposite. Stand up for yourselves for once and have a friggin ounce of confidence in this school's brand and correct it.  There will be nothing left if we just continue on this path as it's clear our program is lost and there is no one to right that ship.  As far as our coach, I think he's a good man and possibly a good coach but might just need a reset.  It happens in all walks of big time sports except our irrational experiment where we don't even try to fix what is happening.  

At one point in time over the last 10 years people would clamor that JTIII was in the top 5 best coaches in the country.
Right now JTIII is not in the top 5 of best coaches in the BE.
I don't know where he would rank as a coach right now.

He was in demand after the FF appearance and school stepped up and paid him to stay.  He's been a top 10 paid coach since then and has not performed to that contract.  I think he would agree with that.  He may go on to coach somewhere else if he wants (won't need the money) and we can try another route.  It may or may not work for  us but to live in the fear this board does of any change is baffling.  If it doesn't work you quickly reset as Butler did when Stephens assistant didn't work.  You run it like other programs that try to win.  I'm someone who still believes in the brand and aura of this program.  Each year that is diminished but it's there just need to unleash it with someone that has some fire.  

[eagle54]

Jan 7, 2017 23:23:18 GMT -5 LCPolo18 said:

Jan 7, 2017 22:57:57 GMT -5 eagle54 said:

It's mind numbing to think people are still here defending this with a straight face.  We are in a watered down conference from the old BE.  Say whatever you want but that's the truth.  We are now at the very bottom of that league and will finish there.  I think us continuing our assumptions about sweeping SJU and DePaul are typical of the arrogance that should have left this board a long time ago.  We are bad and there is no light.  I get that this board thinks the popular thing to do is just keep defending what we are doing and that makes you a better fan but I'd argue the opposite. Stand up for yourselves for once and have a friggin ounce of confidence in this school's brand and correct it.  There will be nothing left if we just continue on this path as it's clear our program is lost and there is no one to right that ship.  As far as our coach, I think he's a good man and possibly a good coach but might just need a reset.  It happens in all walks of big time sports except our irrational experiment where we don't even try to fix what is happening.  

I am defending what happened in 2007, not what is currently happening with the team.

What's your point then?  he developed Jeff and Roy to make a FF and then forgot how to do it after that.  I've said they were Esh's recruits and they were and that is fact.