DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on Jan 9, 2017 10:06:57 GMT -5
How long can we go playing in an empty Verizon? The current attendance isn't great but fifth among ten Big East schools and is tracking to the number in 2013-14, which was 8,670 per game. Fact: Verizon Center is and will be the only home option given a) Big East rules and b) Georgetown's historical reluctance to invest in facilities. Whether there's 2,000 there or 20,000, that's the deal. Unless someone is proposing games at George Mason, Maryland, or the Baltimore Civic Center (and they're not), Verizon is the place until Ted Leonsis build a new arena in the next decade. |
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Post by HometownHoya on Jan 9, 2017 10:50:57 GMT -5
There has been a lot of great discussion here over the past two days. I know where I stand but it's been stated much more eloquently by others.
To touch on the salary discussion: What was JT3's record at Georgetown at the time of his last contract extension? He's clearly under performing his pay at the moment but an employment contract isn't based on your current performance, it's based on your performance at the time (and leading up to) negotiations. One thing that I believe would help JT3 at the end of this season (and that I hope he considers) is to give back some of his salary. Even 100k, which isn't large in a 3.1mil grand scheme, would be better then nothing and show that he recognizes that he hasn't met the university's expectations recently.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Jan 9, 2017 11:03:48 GMT -5
So the question really is, can JT3 do the job in the future? I think you need to have a good, solid answer on that (in the negative) before dismissing him and incurring the negative ramifications of that move before you act. That's why I am generally supportive of giving him an adequate shot. I agree this is the central question. But I am curious: what negative ramifications are you worried about? Are you talking about on the court or off the court? Also, I don't think it's fair to paint retreads and assistants as the alternative options, unless you are lumping mid-major coaches in with retreads. In fact, I would personally be disappointed if Georgetown goes with a retread or an assistant. There are plenty of successful mid-major coaches who would be interested in Georgetown. And, although not my first choice, someone like Ewing with NBA ties might be considered as well. That's a good question. I think there are a number of negative possible consequences. Most notably, the Thompson family basically is Georgetown basketball. There's no denying that John Thompson Jr. made our program what it is - as I noted elsewhere, there's no reason for Georgetown to have a high major basketball program, we were fortunate that it happened. If you were to fire JT3, you run the risk of alienating not only the Thompson family, but more importantly, all the former players and alumni who have very strong connections to the family. This includes basically every NBA player that ever went to Georgetown, including the four currently in the NBA, all of whom seemed to have strong relationships with JT3 (especially Hibbert and Green). Now, I am not saying that this means you can never get rid of JT3. There might come a time where it has to be done, but all I am saying is that given the negative consequences, you have to be super careful about what you are doing. People talk about alumni not giving donations, but don't forget that players like Patrick Ewing, Roy Hibbert, Jeff Green, etc. donated substantial sums for the practice facility. And I in no way mean any disrespect, but Jeff Green's $1,000,000 donation carries a lot more weight than Joe Alumni's $500 donation. You definitely don't want to alienate these guys because they were crucial to the resurgence of the Georgetown basketball brand (as was JT3). As far as on the court, the negative consequences are that we are likely to take a few steps back with any coach. Of course, that's not guaranteed. A new coach could be just as successful as JT3 was in his first years, but it's more frequent that someone does poorly in that timeframe - immediate success like JT3 had is exceedingly rare. But again, if you are convinced that JT3 cannot get it done, then this would be a risk worth taking. As to your second point, I should have been more clear. I think the options are (1) retreads, (2) assistants, or (3) mid-major coaches. Now, JT3 was basically from category 3 and it worked out for us at the time. But, there are inumerable examples of mid-major coaches who are "trending" positively who move up, and then do not perform. Oliver Purnell is one of the most notable examples, but there are many others. Actually, among the three options, I probably prefer that option: any retreads who are going to be successful usually have non-ethical or shady practices that the university wouldn't accept (like Bruce Pearl or Larry Brown) and the "hot" assistants are often hugely unproven, though they sometimes can be good on the recruiting end. And I guess option (4) would be a Georgetown-connected alumni - someone like Patrick Ewing. Personally, I am not a fan of this approach given the importance of recruiting - picking someone with absolutely no experience on that end is highly risky. It made sense for St. John's and Mullin because Steve Lavin left the program in a wasteland and Mullin was a high upside choice when they really couldn't have recruited anybody decent to be the coach of the program. But, it remains to be seen whether it will be successful for them. I want to underscore that these decisions are not easy - they are actually quite difficult. It really shouldn't be an easy decision in this situation, and I think those that pretend like it's easy are way oversimplifying the considerations that must be taken into account. |
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hoyarad
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Post by hoyarad on Jan 9, 2017 11:15:20 GMT -5
I wonder what a different BE coach could accomplish with our team given one off season of preparation - would be interesting to see how Chris Mack or Jay Wright utilized what we had.
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SSHoya
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Post by SSHoya on Jan 9, 2017 11:53:33 GMT -5
It has been brought to my attention that JTIII has NOT been announced as the head coach at the Verizon Center during the intros in the last two games. Make of it what you will . . . (Afraid of boos, perhaps but at this point it seems that the fans who still show up are apathetic at best). I will pay attention to the intros tonight.
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This Just In
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Post by This Just In on Jan 9, 2017 12:04:39 GMT -5
The reason JTIII's salary is an issue that you do not need to pay a coach top 14 salary in the industry for the type of results below: This is JTIII's 4th year in the New Big and he has had only 1 season with a win % above (.500) JTIII's New BE Reg. Season record to date 27-31 (.465) St. Johns gave the Hoyas their last BE Reg. Season win on Feb 8th, 2015 The team has now lost 10 straight BE Regular Season games JTIII's BE Reg Season record the last year plus 7-15 (.318) In 18 days will be the 1 year anniversary of beating a BE team not named DePaul or St. Johns 0-4 BE Record for the 1st time since 1999 Currently tied for last place in the BE with win less DePaul (I remember a time when this board would make fun of DePaul and now we share the rankings) When it comes to March: NIT Record since 2009: 1-2 BET Record Post 2008 Final loss to Pitt: 7-8 Georgetown has not won the BET in a decade and counting JTIII has not been to the 2nd weekend/Sweet 16 in a decade and counting. JTIII has not won back to back game in either the NIT or NCAA's in a decade and counting Overall Record NCAA Record: 9-8 NCAA Record Post 2007 Final Four: 3-8 What makes you think that JTIII can get this turned around? Strong list of extremely damning stats TIJ. I knew we were in a pretty nasty rut but didn't realize it was actually that bad. Others also make very compelling argument that on paper next year would seem to be even more of a rebuilding year with at least our two top scorers moving on.' I needed to correct one item NCAA Record Post 2007 Final Four: 3-8 3-6 |
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Post by Lethal_Interjection on Jan 9, 2017 12:06:56 GMT -5
It has been brought to my attention that JTIII has NOT been announced as the head coach at the Verizon Center during the intros in the last two games. Make of it what you will . . . (Afraid of boos, perhaps but at this point it seems that the fans who still show up are apathetic at best). I will pay attention to the intros tonight. It's been brought up over on Casual Hoya www.casualhoya.com/2017/1/7/14200516/georgetown-hoyas-butler-bulldogs-game-recap#comments |
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SSHoya
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"Forget it Jake, it's Chinatown."
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Post by SSHoya on Jan 9, 2017 12:10:46 GMT -5
It has been brought to my attention that JTIII has NOT been announced as the head coach at the Verizon Center during the intros in the last two games. Make of it what you will . . . (Afraid of boos, perhaps but at this point it seems that the fans who still show up are apathetic at best). I will pay attention to the intros tonight. It's been brought up over on Casual Hoya www.casualhoya.com/2017/1/7/14200516/georgetown-hoyas-butler-bulldogs-game-recap#commentsAh, thanks. I never noticed the omission but will pay attention tonight. |
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guru
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Post by guru on Jan 9, 2017 12:18:39 GMT -5
If that were happening maybe you'd have a point. But this coach already accomplished those things. The difference is that I think that should give him considerable job security, and you do not. But those are accomplishments few coaches achieve. We have a coach who has done that and many so-called fans want to run him out. That is amazing to me, but I will simply respectfully agree to disagree. Like it or not, it's a What Have You Done For Me Lately profession. His accomplishments occurred when George W. was present. Each solid big east season since has been capped with a humiliating NCAA tourney loss (save for Utah), which nullifies the regular season. Sorry, but that's how this works. So we are rewarding him for accomplishments that are a decade old. It's not logical. |
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Post by HometownHoya on Jan 9, 2017 12:42:52 GMT -5
But this coach already accomplished those things. The difference is that I think that should give him considerable job security, and you do not. But those are accomplishments few coaches achieve. We have a coach who has done that and many so-called fans want to run him out. That is amazing to me, but I will simply respectfully agree to disagree. Like it or not, it's a What Have You Done For Me Lately profession. His accomplishments occurred when George W. was present. Each solid big east season since has been capped with a humiliating NCAA tourney loss (save for Utah), which nullifies the regular season. Sorry, but that's how this works.
So we are rewarding him for accomplishments that are a decade old. It's not logical.That is how it works. It's called a contract. Was Brock Osweiler worth 72 million? No but it's what he signed his contract for. I said it earlier: I think JT3 should take the high road and give some money back. Does he need to? No, that was the contract he signed. Maybe we would have been smarter to make it a highly performance driven contract with milestones to meet but that is not the industry standard. |
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bamahoya11
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Post by bamahoya11 on Jan 9, 2017 12:43:54 GMT -5
Ah, thanks. I never noticed the omission but will pay attention tonight. It has been that way basically since we got back from Maui. Can't vouch for the Howard game because I wasn't there, but he hasn't been announced in any of the games since and I've been to all of them I think. I figured it was a product of the chants at the end of the Arkansas St. game. |
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Post by ColumbiaHeightsHoya on Jan 9, 2017 12:49:02 GMT -5
On a side note, I have been impressed with the crowds vs X and Butler. Really good turnouts for saturday games while students were on break. Someone deserves a pat on the back for this.
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DanMcQ
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Post by DanMcQ on Jan 9, 2017 12:59:55 GMT -5
On a side note, I have been impressed with the crowds vs X and Butler. Really good turnouts for saturday games while students were on break. Someone deserves a pat on the back for this. Those who attended, for starters. |
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DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on Jan 9, 2017 13:25:36 GMT -5
I said it earlier: I think JT3 should take the high road and give some money back. Does he need to? No, that was the contract he signed. Maybe we would have been smarter to make it a highly performance driven contract with milestones to meet but that is not the industry standard. A show of hands from those of you around the table who will take the "high road" and give back a portion of their salary:  Such arguments are not well founded because they make an assumption that a winning record is the measurement of a coach at Georgetown within the University. As noted before, it isn't and there are many examples of this. Those are not the terms of this agreement and won't be going forward. |
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Elvado
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Post by Elvado on Jan 9, 2017 13:33:39 GMT -5
I said it earlier: I think JT3 should take the high road and give some money back. Does he need to? No, that was the contract he signed. Maybe we would have been smarter to make it a highly performance driven contract with milestones to meet but that is not the industry standard. A show of hands from those of you around the table who will take the "high road" and give back a portion of their salary: Such arguments are not well founded because they make an assumption that a winning record is the measurement of a coach at Georgetown within the University. As noted before, it isn't and there are many examples of this. Those are not the terms of this agreement and won't be going forward. Beyond which, if III ever gave back money, Big John would disown him, clearing the way for his departure. I seem to recall Bi John saying the only color he cared about was green... |
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bamahoya11
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Post by bamahoya11 on Jan 9, 2017 13:52:17 GMT -5
On a side note, I have been impressed with the crowds vs X and Butler. Really good turnouts for saturday games while students were on break. Someone deserves a pat on the back for this. Those who attended, for starters. It has been surprisingly good turnout. And the atmosphere has been fun until the bitter end when the outcome is clear. Fans are getting into the game, cheering the team on. All the activities and stuff during the media timeouts have been really family friendly. It's a good atmosphere, considering the struggles of the team. Also, as noted elsewhere, the two visiting bands/ cheer squads did a GREAT job over the Christmas break. Both my wife and I were talking about what a great job Eastern did this weekend. |
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hoyarad
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Post by hoyarad on Jan 9, 2017 14:13:24 GMT -5
I said it earlier: I think JT3 should take the high road and give some money back. Does he need to? No, that was the contract he signed. Maybe we would have been smarter to make it a highly performance driven contract with milestones to meet but that is not the industry standard. A show of hands from those of you around the table who will take the "high road" and give back a portion of their salary: Such arguments are not well founded because they make an assumption that a winning record is the measurement of a coach at Georgetown within the University. As noted before, it isn't and there are many examples of this. Those are not the terms of this agreement and won't be going forward. Steve Alford at UCLA "gave back" his extension last year after missing the NCAAs |
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hoyainspirit
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Post by hoyainspirit on Jan 9, 2017 14:22:42 GMT -5
A show of hands from those of you around the table who will take the "high road" and give back a portion of their salary: Such arguments are not well founded because they make an assumption that a winning record is the measurement of a coach at Georgetown within the University. As noted before, it isn't and there are many examples of this. Those are not the terms of this agreement and won't be going forward. Steve Alford at UCLA "gave back" his extension last year after missing the NCAAs Because Steve Alford did it, would you? |
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hoyarad
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Post by hoyarad on Jan 9, 2017 14:24:59 GMT -5
Steve Alford at UCLA "gave back" his extension last year after missing the NCAAs Because Steve Alford did it, would you? I might if I had already earned 8 million dollars and my extension didn't begin for another 3 years. |
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SDHoya
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Post by SDHoya on Jan 9, 2017 14:55:16 GMT -5
Asking JTIII to give back money as some gesture of contrition is pretty ridiculous. Maybe there are some examples of that happening, but let's not hold out breath. Nor, to be frank, is a gesture what we really want. What we want is a successful program. I would venture to guess no one would complaint about JTIII's salary if we were winning--but with a top salary necessarily comes higher expectations.
If, as DFW says, "winning record is NOT the measurement of a coach at Georgetown within the University", that would be seen as a betrayal to a lot of people who support this team financially (via donation, tickets, merch, etc.). People don't pay to support/attend D-1 sports for feel good stories about sportsmanship. We want to know that there is that backbone, but the professionalization of high major collegiate athletics means an emphasis on on-court success. If the administration--or the alumni--feel that is wrong for a highly selective academic institution to run a semi-professional sports franchise, then the consistent thing to do is to drop down a division and enjoy life as a supporter of truly amateur athletics.
But so long as we are intent on appearing on national television, and actively recruiting kids who would have zero chance of getting into a school like Georgetown absent an incredible aptitude for putting an orange ball in a converted peach basket--and reaping the financial and publicity rewards that result--winning is and should be the measure of success.
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