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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Nov 29, 2016 0:32:28 GMT -5
I thing big john needs to help jt3 out and jar his memory back.then go to locker room and show team some film on the teams he coached,on how to hustle and go get a rebound, I know you are being a little lighthearted in your comment, but there is a lot of truth that rings in the idea of bringing back old Hoyas to teach the new kids the Georgetown Way. JT2 may still know how to do it mentally, but his aging body could not keep up with the rigors of on court tutelage that would be needed to get the job done. Seriously, there are three names that come to mind (1) Jerome Williams to work with small forwards on defense, rebounding and pressing,(2) Othelo Harrington to work with big forwards on the same things and (3) Don Reid to work the centers on the same things plus court positioning on defense and offense. I know the Big O has been here already but there is no harm in bringing him back. These guys do not have to be full time employees who sit on the bench during the game, but would be special assistant to the head coach like Ms Felon was for Big John to concentrate on specific areas of development. All three were overachievers because of size or slowness afoot but through hard work an determination became so adapt at what they did that they carved out a good NBA career. I know, Big O was the number one player coming out of high school, but really was 6'8" power forward who played an entire career at center amongst some of the giants of the game. III has put his ego in his back pocket and changed the style of the team. Now we need him to do the sam with the idea of letting these Hoya legends teach his young guys how it is done. There is no shame admitting that some of your dad's are better suited for the crew he has assembled. After all his initial credo was to make the world remember who Georgetown was. hiya pride was missing in the three games in Maui. Let's bring it back III, ask for the help you need. A winning team with the attributes mentioned above will not be remembered as the Jerome Williams team, or the Othelo Harrington, or the Don Reid team ,but the JTIII team who finally brought the Hoyas all the way back and will lay the ground work for future Hoyas to emulate. Othella Harrington was the Director of Basketball Operations for a few years. It did not seem to make much of a difference on-court.
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eagle54
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 2,471
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Post by eagle54 on Nov 29, 2016 0:41:41 GMT -5
In the same way many attack the people who point out the coaches short comings which is becoming tiresome and borderline ridiculous at this point. Some of these same people want to disparage this program as something good coaches wouldn't want. I can't disagree more but maybe that's because I and some others here believe in this program more than others and won't accept what we are being fed. I think there are plenty of coaching who know this would be a destination at the potential for $3+ million per year where you don't have to be Kansas, Kentucky, UNC, Duke, etc. in terms of results. You merely need to be competitive in a decent basketball conference, make the tournament most or all years, get a sweet 16 every few and an occasional Final 4 wouldn't hurt but no ones going to fire you over not making it. I think that would be a lot more attractive than taking a middle of the road ACC, B10, P12 type program where it will be a lot harder to compete. Someone like Jay Wright could have bolted many times for the NBA or some of those "big time" college jobs but he realizes what he has there and has settled in and will now have a nice run with the goodwill and brand he's built. It's time we reset this and try to catch up as we've lost major ground but there's plenty to sell about this job so stop with the fear mongering about how coaches won't want this job and who we could've hired in 2004 that didn't work out somewhere else. If you are paralyzed by fear, set yourself free. You are setting up a straw man. Some of us who support the current staff more than you also do it because we care about the program and believe in it. In my opinion, it would be hard to find a coach that would be better than JT3 in the long-term. Now, if JT3 continues to struggle and have sub-.500 seasons, then you have a different problem. And maybe we can talk about that at the end of the season, but right now, all we know is that two years ago we were a 4 seed and last year we stunk. The funny thing is that JT3 basically meets your standard, above, except that he hasn't made the Sweet 16 every few years. So here's my question. Let's say you hired someone new. At what point do you fire that new person? If they don't make a Sweet 16 for, let's say 4 years? 5? Where do you draw the line? The reality is that it's not clear-cut. It's tougher to find a coach who can get to the NCAA tournament every year, period, nevermind a Sweet 16. That's why I think it's important to be careful to dismiss a coach when he's had a fair amount of success. But, I know I won't convince you because you think the local CYO coach would be better than JT3. I've seen enough and when things are trending downward since they have from our Final 4 year with the key players that were recruited by another coach I say that's long enough. Close to a decade since we've been relevant in March. Last two years you can write it off in November. Quit with the seeds that we away by getting beat by marginal programs. It's tiresome to continue that talk track even for the most faithful here. “Failure isn’t fatal, but failure to change might be” – John Wooden
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Nov 29, 2016 0:58:32 GMT -5
I've seen enough and when things are trending downward since they have from our Final 4 year with the key players that were recruited by another coach I say that's long enough. Close to a decade since we've been relevant in March. Last two years you can write it off in November. Quit with the seeds that we Edited away by getting beat by marginal programs. It's tiresome to continue that talk track even for the most faithful here. If you're going to just ignore what I say and spout your talking points you've said a ton of times before (and that are factually incorrect), then there's no point in continuing. You want a new coach and basically think we've been horrible for years (even though we haven't been).
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eagle54
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 2,471
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Post by eagle54 on Nov 29, 2016 1:03:39 GMT -5
I've seen enough and when things are trending downward since they have from our Final 4 year with the key players that were recruited by another coach I say that's long enough. Close to a decade since we've been relevant in March. Last two years you can write it off in November. Quit with the seeds that we Edited away by getting beat by marginal programs. It's tiresome to continue that talk track even for the most faithful here. If you're going to just ignore what I say and spout your talking points you've said a ton of times before (and that are factually incorrect), then there's no point in continuing. You want a new coach and basically think we've been horrible for years (even though we haven't been). I've heard the straw man thing before. I'm not ignoring anything you say but you pulling out the same playbook defending the program is going to be met with disregard and not just by me. I haven't used it in awhile but you are the definition of a blind loyalist which I can admire on some level and wish I could be. However, it's got to be hard for you to keep defending the new lows we find? You are measured by making the tournament and how you perform in the tournament. Not by getting a high seed and then losing to some garbage program over and over again. Post season is what matters in all sports. It just does.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Nov 29, 2016 1:11:38 GMT -5
If you're going to just ignore what I say and spout your talking points you've said a ton of times before (and that are factually incorrect), then there's no point in continuing. You want a new coach and basically think we've been horrible for years (even though we haven't been). I've heard the straw man thing before. I'm not ignoring anything you say but you pulling out the same playbook defending the program is going to be met with disregard and not just by me. I haven't used it in awhile but you are the definition of a blind loyalist which I can admire on some level and wish I could be. However, it's got to be hard for you to keep defending the new lows we find? You are measured by making the tournament and how you perform in the tournament. Not by getting a high seed and then losing to some garbage program over and over again. Post season is what matters in all sports. It just does. I am not a blind loyalist. If things continue to go downhill, I would support change. I'm just not there yet. And your saying I am using the same playbook is funny since you basically have five posts you just repeat ad nauseum.
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eagle54
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 2,471
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Post by eagle54 on Nov 29, 2016 1:18:06 GMT -5
I've heard the straw man thing before. I'm not ignoring anything you say but you pulling out the same playbook defending the program is going to be met with disregard and not just by me. I haven't used it in awhile but you are the definition of a blind loyalist which I can admire on some level and wish I could be. However, it's got to be hard for you to keep defending the new lows we find? You are measured by making the tournament and how you perform in the tournament. Not by getting a high seed and then losing to some garbage program over and over again. Post season is what matters in all sports. It just does. I am not a blind loyalist. If things continue to go downhill, I would support change. I'm just not there yet. And your saying I am using the same playbook is funny since you basically have five posts you just repeat ad nauseum. You just need to pay closer attention to those posts and start seeing this for what it is. What you and others are holding onto baffles me and most of the fans that don't care to post in here.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Nov 29, 2016 1:23:54 GMT -5
I am not a blind loyalist. If things continue to go downhill, I would support change. I'm just not there yet. And your saying I am using the same playbook is funny since you basically have five posts you just repeat ad nauseum. You just need to pay closer attention to those posts and start seeing this for what it is. What you and others are holding onto baffles me and most of the fans that don't care to post in here. That's a good one. Goodnight eagle.
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bostonfan
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 2,531
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Post by bostonfan on Nov 29, 2016 8:40:20 GMT -5
In the same way many attack the people who point out the coaches short comings which is becoming tiresome and borderline ridiculous at this point. Some of these same people want to disparage this program as something good coaches wouldn't want. I can't disagree more but maybe that's because I and some others here believe in this program more than others and won't accept what we are being fed. I think there are plenty of coaching who know this would be a destination at the potential for $3+ million per year where you don't have to be Kansas, Kentucky, UNC, Duke, etc. in terms of results. You merely need to be competitive in a decent basketball conference, make the tournament most or all years, get a sweet 16 every few and an occasional Final 4 wouldn't hurt but no ones going to fire you over not making it. I think that would be a lot more attractive than taking a middle of the road ACC, B10, P12 type program where it will be a lot harder to compete. Someone like Jay Wright could have bolted many times for the NBA or some of those "big time" college jobs but he realizes what he has there and has settled in and will now have a nice run with the goodwill and brand he's built. It's time we reset this and try to catch up as we've lost major ground but there's plenty to sell about this job so stop with the fear mongering about how coaches won't want this job and who we could've hired in 2004 that didn't work out somewhere else. If you are paralyzed by fear, set yourself free. If the school ever does decide to move on from JT3, I would think you would get a long list of impressive candidates interested in the job. You will not get any of the elite coaches to leave other strong established programs to come to Georgetown, but that doesn't mean you would not get a high quality coach. They play in a very strong basketball conference, are an elite academic university in a very attractive city, with great recruiting opportunities. They now have a state of the art basketball facility and have shown they are willing to pay for a coach to lead the program. Throw in the long and impressive history of the program and you are going to attract a lot of quality applicants. The issue would be selecting the right person who can represent the program the way the school wants, and make the program a consistently competitive team. They are not going to look for someone with "character" issues because they value the schools reputation more than winning, but there are plenty of really good coaches who are doing things by the book that would be interested
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Post by practice on Nov 29, 2016 9:39:15 GMT -5
Does anyone know JT3's contract situation? In 2007, he signed a 6 year extension. In 2015, the university reported that paid him $2.8 million (10th highest salary among DI basketball coaches). However, I can't find any mention of a long term contract extension. Is he on a year-to-year deal with some sort of automatic raise? Buying out multiple years at ~$3M/year is not something I see GU doing any time soon. Can anyone answer my question about the current state of JT3's contract? Also, I think the great philosopher Mike Tyson was talking about JT3 when he said, "Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth." I was dismayed after last season and frankly thought the team's performance was so bad that JT3 could have lost his job. However, like many of us, I was thrilled about the off season moves -- Pryor, Mulemore, Hayes' 5th year, new coaches, and a professed commitment to speed things up. In addition to those moves, I assumed that all of the great talent we already had -- Peak, Copeland, Derrickson and Govan -- would get better. Through in a few X factors -- Johnson, Mosley, Cameron in his senior year, Mourning's Kenner league flashes, and Campbell's social media campaign, and I was on board. The Upstate game only fed into my optimism .... and then came Maryland, Arkansas State and Maui ... and frankly Howard. JT3 since the waning minutes of the Maryland game has been a man hitting the panic button. Neither the bench nor the players have shown an ounce of composure or confidence since then. Two of our "stars" Copeland and Govan have played so poorly that they can't get in the game. We don't really know why Cameron left -- and then returned -- to the team. It's still early but if the Hoyas don't manage to run through the next 3 games with some confidence and execution, I fear that the death spiral will speed up and JT3 will lose the team and thus the season. Which again leads me to ask: does the head coach have a long term deal?
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DFW HOYA
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 5,852
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Post by DFW HOYA on Nov 29, 2016 9:54:30 GMT -5
Which again leads me to ask: does the head coach have a long term deal? There's nothing to suggest otherwise. Georgetown doesn't talk about such things but a renewal in 2014 would likely take the contract through 2019-20, assuming it is not an auto-renew as is seen in some coaches contracts. Almost all other BE coaches have deals or extensions past 2020 at this point.
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LCPolo18
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 4,406
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Post by LCPolo18 on Nov 29, 2016 11:51:28 GMT -5
Two of our "stars" Copeland and Govan have played so poorly that they can't get in the game. Copeland was poked in the eye during the first half of the Oklahoma State game and didn't return the rest of the game. He was poked by a defender on the basket he made at the 10:55 mark, and was holding his eye for the next couple of sequences before they were able to sub him out. So yes he has been struggling, but his lack of minutes the last two games probably has more to do with his eye than a permanent benching.
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prhoya
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 23,526
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Post by prhoya on Nov 29, 2016 17:50:42 GMT -5
I do not think the 2004 candidates are reflective of who we would attract today. I do think the program is better positioned now than then, and the job is more attractive as a result. Of course, that almost entirely has to do with JT3 and the success he had early on - even if it was a long time ago. If Esherick or someone else was the coach the last ten years, it's highly unlikely that the practice facility would exist, also, which helps to make the job more attractive. That said, just as people have a tendency to over value our players (remember the guy who said Campbell was NBA material or that DSR would definitely be in the NBA), I do think they overestimate the attractiveness of the job. Or those who undervalue our players (remember the guy who said Henry Sims was not NBA material or that Hollis Thompson would definitely not be in the NBA), I do think they underestimate the attractiveness of the job. See what I did there? Let me correct the "they". From what we've read in HT, you are the only one who continuously underestimates the attractiveness of the job.
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Post by augustusfinknottle on Nov 29, 2016 17:58:35 GMT -5
Naming others who were up for the job and have not distinguished themselves since should be seen less as an endorsement of Thompson and more as an indictment of the apparatus which conducted the search. Has much changed?
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Nov 29, 2016 19:01:54 GMT -5
Naming others who were up for the job and have not distinguished themselves since should be seen less as an endorsement of Thompson and more as an indictment of the apparatus which conducted the search. Has much changed? Possibly, but if so, I am not sure why everybody is so confident it would be different now.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Nov 29, 2016 19:09:03 GMT -5
Or those who undervalue our players (remember the guy who said Henry Sims was not NBA material or that Hollis Thompson would definitely not be in the NBA), I do think they underestimate the attractiveness of the job. See what I did there? Let me correct the "they". From what we've read in HT, you are the only one who continuously underestimates the attractiveness of the job. Well, if there is an opening, we will surely find out. Listen, I am not saying the job is "unattractive" - obviously, it's the type of job that will garner attention, at the very least. And there would likely be some well known names who would be mentioned in connection (who would likely pass, but I could be wrong) the search, as there seems to be with virtually every search out there. But I also don't think that because you can dangle money in front of people that it will suddenly get a great coach for the university. At best, we would get somebody who has had some success in the past, but is not proven. While I definitely tend to give the coaching staff a longer leash than some, if the university decided to move on, I would very much want the best coach we could possibly get. I am not trying to put down the job, or make it seem unattractive. I just think people have a tendency to say things like "there are plenty of good coaches out there," (which has been said many times, not by you, but by others starting with e and ending in 4) but when you really look at who is available, that list isn't quite as long as one might think. And forgive me if I feel this way, when other posters (not you), mention people like Arkansas St's coach, King Rice, and Keatts, as possibilities, it doesn't inspire confidence in a change.
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eagle54
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 2,471
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Post by eagle54 on Nov 29, 2016 21:28:52 GMT -5
Or those who undervalue our players (remember the guy who said Henry Sims was not NBA material or that Hollis Thompson would definitely not be in the NBA), I do think they underestimate the attractiveness of the job. See what I did there? Let me correct the "they". From what we've read in HT, you are the only one who continuously underestimates the attractiveness of the job. Well, if there is an opening, we will surely find out. Listen, I am not saying the job is "unattractive" - obviously, it's the type of job that will garner attention, at the very least. And there would likely be some well known names who would be mentioned in connection (who would likely pass, but I could be wrong) the search, as there seems to be with virtually every search out there. But I also don't think that because you can dangle money in front of people that it will suddenly get a great coach for the university. At best, we would get somebody who has had some success in the past, but is not proven. While I definitely tend to give the coaching staff a longer leash than some, if the university decided to move on, I would very much want the best coach we could possibly get. I am not trying to put down the job, or make it seem unattractive. I just think people have a tendency to say things like "there are plenty of good coaches out there," (which has been said many times, not by you, but by others starting with e and ending in 4) but when you really look at who is available, that list isn't quite as long as one might think. And forgive me if I feel this way, when other posters (not you), mention people like Arkansas St's coach, King Rice, and Keatts, as possibilities, it doesn't inspire confidence in a change. I was trying to figure out if you might have been referencing me or someone else with the same start and end to their username. For the record, I've never mentioned King Rice or Keatts for our job. Not to say I wouldn't but I haven't. But did you ever notice how many quality coaching candidates there are around the country? It's amazing we wouldn't try to improve in that area.
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KHoyaNYC
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,901
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Post by KHoyaNYC on Nov 29, 2016 21:51:41 GMT -5
What I keep coming back to in thinking about this is that if we are already hearing and seeing, however small in number, Fire Thompson chants and people wearing bags at home games, how bad is it going to get if/when we end up on a significant losing streak this year (possible) or if things continue to trend in the wrong direction next year? Long term deal or not, would the administration be comfortable keeping JTIII as coach if significant numbers of people are chanting for his head at every home game? Beyond the horrible atmospherics, it would destroy what recruiting chops we have left and send the program into a tailspin that it would take years and years to recover from. Is the administration willing to let it get that far out of hand just because of loyalty to the Thompson brand? I don't know the answer but it could get real ugly really soon if the answer is yes.
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eagle54
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 2,471
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Post by eagle54 on Nov 29, 2016 21:56:47 GMT -5
What I keep coming back to in thinking about this is that if we are already hearing and seeing, however small in number, Fire Thompson chants and people wearing bags at home games, how bad is it going to get if/when we end up on a significant losing streak this year (possible) or if things continue to trend in the wrong direction next year? Long term deal or not, would the administration be comfortable keeping JTIII as coach if significant numbers of people are chanting for his head at every home game? Beyond the horrible atmospherics, it would destroy what recruiting chops we have left and send the program into a tailspin that it would take years and years to recover from. Is the administration willing to let it get that far out of hand just because of loyalty to the Thompson brand? I don't know the answer but it could get real ugly really soon if the answer is yes. I don't think this administration knows how to manage a big time program like we have. Their only advisor is the father of our coach so that doesn't help with getting sound advice on that topic. I don't think the AD has much say in the whole thing. All you can do is make your voice known as a fan and hope someone is listening or you could be a Blue and Gray poster on this board and act like it will just get better on its own.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Nov 29, 2016 22:31:33 GMT -5
I was trying to figure out if you might have been referencing me or someone else with the same start and end to their username. For the record, I've never mentioned King Rice or Keatts for our job. Not to say I wouldn't but I haven't. But did you ever notice how many quality coaching candidates there are around the country? It's amazing we wouldn't try to improve in that area. I was referencing you only with regard to the statement that there are tons of good coaches, which you restated above. I know you didn't identify Keatts or Rice, so sorry for implying that. We can agree to disagree on how many quality coaching candidates exist. After all, regardless of who is right, we'd only need one good one.
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eagle54
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 2,471
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Post by eagle54 on Nov 29, 2016 22:35:29 GMT -5
I was trying to figure out if you might have been referencing me or someone else with the same start and end to their username. For the record, I've never mentioned King Rice or Keatts for our job. Not to say I wouldn't but I haven't. But did you ever notice how many quality coaching candidates there are around the country? It's amazing we wouldn't try to improve in that area. I was referencing you only with regard to the statement that there are tons of good coaches, which you restated above. I know you didn't identify Keatts or Rice, so sorry for implying that. We can agree to disagree on how many quality coaching candidates exist. After all, regardless of who is right, we'd only need one good one. I know you didn't just clarifying. You'll never know about a coach until you take the first step. Remember the first step is always the hardest step.
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