njhoya78
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 7,803
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Post by njhoya78 on Nov 21, 2016 10:52:41 GMT -5
You can likely take the word coaching out of your argument in most cases. People take the money more often than not. But for what reason are they taking the job? The paycheck? That's not the person I want. I want the person that wants that job. And, as with JT3, that person won't be given 3 mil to take the job. They'll get an extension with a raise after a record of success. That's not a guarantee especially when a guy has a pretty lucrative deal already locked in. It's like asking a NY state teacher to give up a tenured teacher position at 125k to work without a net somewhere else for 175k with the promise of more if they're deemed successful in the short term. If you think the odds of more people taking the new job than not, we'll have to disagree. You are not even close in that analogy. You are talking about giving a coach a shot with likely a $3 - 4m guarantee over three years. That comes with tremendous upside to the job if you have success. As much as the fear mongering continues, this is a destination job if you can make it work. We ultimately pay $3m per year which is a top 10 salary, we don't ask that you have a success rate of the schools in front of us and we have big time brand to recruit from. Anyone worried about job security should just look at how long we are carrying the current regime with no success. Eagle makes a fair point here (my goodness, I'm agreeing with him again!). It's more than just the Thompson blood line chain. Craig Esherick would not have been fired, had it not been for his outlandish statement about his job security in the face of another bad season. The administration is not prone to changing basketball coaches on the basis of one subpar season; it took successive seasons of 12-14 and 3-23 for Jack Magee to be fired and replaced by JT2. And 3-23 is horrific by any standard.
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Post by glidehoyas (Inactive) on Nov 21, 2016 10:53:58 GMT -5
BEAT OREGON!
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bigskyhoya
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,100
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Post by bigskyhoya on Nov 21, 2016 10:59:33 GMT -5
Before I am labelled a troll by a certain Board nerd who judges devotion to the team by the number of posts on this Board, I have been an avid Hoya fan since 1977. I follow the team and this Board religiously, but rarely post. I feel compelled to do so now.
At the risk of oversimplifying things, here is my take:
(1) Is III on the hot seat? I have no inside information and cannot answer this question. In my view, the better question is "Should III be on the hot seat?" I find it hard to believe that even the apologists among us would answer this question with a "no." If he isn't, however, the only logical explanation is his last name. I am fully cognizant of the benefits Georgetown has reaped from the association with the Thompson family, and I will be forever grateful to them. Given the answer to the first question, however, the Thompson relationship is in danger of becoming an anchor.
(2) Is there risk in replacing III with another coach? This question has been the subject of considerable debate on this Board but is the ultimate red herring. Since Coach K, or someone like him, is not about to become our next head coach, of course there is risk in making a change. But for those of us who will not suffer mediocrity, or worse than that last year, the risk is well worth the potential reward. Georgetown deserves a coach who consistently has us at or near the top of the Big East and in March Madness (with more wins than losses). Our talent is not the reason we have failed to reach these goals.
I am not wishing for another failed season this year. I want III and the team to succeed, beginning tonight. But I feel the malaise creeping in that another poster noted, and the last thing any of us want is for the Hoyas to become irrelevant.
Hoping for success this season or a change the next.
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Post by FrazierFanatic on Nov 21, 2016 11:20:27 GMT -5
BigSky - a very fair analysis. For the next 4 months I will focus my energies on rooting for a turnaround and a successful season. There will be plenty of time for a post-mortem when and if the body is cold. The thought/wish that Georgetown would jettison its coach mid-season absent some scandalous occurrence is senseless.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Nov 21, 2016 12:52:59 GMT -5
Do you think Villanova is a "destination" coaching job? Which are your "destination" coaching jobs? Initially, he would not be paid $3M, but more than he earns now. The prospect is there to be paid $3M here. Just win games in March. As far as Villanova, before last year I certainly would have said no. Given that they won the tournament last year, obviously that affects perceptions, and if there was an opening right now, it would help. But no. In my mind, the "destination" coaching jobs in basketball are few and far between - the programs that are so good consistently, and so well regarded that they are going to get top notch talent interested no matter what the circumstance. Examples include: Kentucky, Kansas, Duke, UCLA, and UNC. I don't disagree with you in principle: if Georgetown hired someone, and they had March success, they'd get a raise and maybe be at $3 million after a while. The problem is that the number of coaches who can "just win games in March" is a pretty small set. As far as your question about "top-notch" coaching talent. I would consider people like Shaka Smart (when he was at VCU), Brad Stevens (when he was at Butler), Greg Marshall, Mark Few, Mick Cronin (not a huge fan of his style and attitude, but he's a good coach), Archie Miller, maybe someone like Rick Barnes (after getting fired from Texas). Now, what's the common thread among these coaches? They generally get their teams to the NCAA tournament. The other common thread is that they're unlikely to come to Georgetown (or would have been had they been available at a time Georgetown was looking). My main case for keeping JT3 all along has been that he has generally gotten us to the NCAA tournament with pretty high seeds. That's actually really hard to do, especially when you consider few coaches have done that, and most of them are at blue-bloods with recruiting far superior to ours. As I noted in another thread, from 2006 to 2015, we had NCAA seeds of 7, 2, 2, 3, 6, 3, 2, 4, and only missed the tournament twice. Yes, we didn't do much with those seeds (aside from 2006 and 2007), but I firmly believe that if we repeated those seeds again our results would be much better. So the real question for me is can JT3 repeat this performance in the future? If we don't make the tournament this season, then that's certainly a big counterargument against my main reason for supporting not making a move. If we have a coach that can regularly get us to the NCAA tournament with high seeds, then I say no change. However, if that cannot or will not happen, then I would be more in agreement with change. Really, how this season plays out is the major factor. Obviously, not making the tournament 3 of 4 years would be pretty bad. But, I'm not ready to concede that we're not making the tournament after 3 games.
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Post by professorhoya on Nov 21, 2016 20:48:01 GMT -5
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Post by cosmopolitanhoya on Nov 22, 2016 6:05:38 GMT -5
As a hater for his job security and complacency in spite of his top 10 salary, I advise you to be not so short-sighted with the following previous games in the past 2 seasons.
1/20/2016 Georgetown upsets #5 Xavier - 15/18; no NCAA/NIT bids
1/25/2015 Georgetown upsets #4 Villanova - 22/11; lose to Utah round of 32.
A win over opponents like Oregon happened at least once a year. U should understand those wins are not what fuel the frustration of many fans here who dedicate a lot of time / money / effort in supporting the school's team.
But win is a win, and I will take that.
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Post by glidehoyas (Inactive) on Nov 22, 2016 6:54:51 GMT -5
The haters are nowhere to be found. The Silence is UNREAL!
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Post by glidehoyas (Inactive) on Nov 22, 2016 6:57:01 GMT -5
JT3 earns his salary just be dealing with nosey people ..
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Post by FrazierFanatic on Nov 22, 2016 7:19:07 GMT -5
As a hater for his job security and complacency in spite of his top 10 salary, I advise you to be not so short-sighted with the following previous games in the past 2 seasons. 1/20/2016 Georgetown upsets #5 Xavier - 15/18; no NCAA/NIT bids 1/25/2015 Georgetown upsets #4 Villanova - 22/11; lose to Utah round of 32. A win over opponents like Oregon happened at least once a year. U should understand those wins are not what fuel the frustration of many fans here who dedicate a lot of time / money / effort in supporting the school's team. But win is a win, and I will take that. Last year sucked. Yesterday's win was very nice, gives us hope - but it was only one win. But you need to stop trying to characterize a 22-11 season, with a #4 seed losing to a #5 seed, as some type of terrible disappointment.
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Elvado
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 6,080
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Post by Elvado on Nov 22, 2016 7:36:22 GMT -5
Last night was a nice unexpected win. Back it upvs Wisconsin and we could be on to something.
The systemic flaws and frustrations will not be cured overnight, but good news is good news and I for one will enjoy this.
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Post by cosmopolitanhoya on Nov 22, 2016 7:54:44 GMT -5
As a hater for his job security and complacency in spite of his top 10 salary, I advise you to be not so short-sighted with the following previous games in the past 2 seasons. 1/20/2016 Georgetown upsets #5 Xavier - 15/18; no NCAA/NIT bids 1/25/2015 Georgetown upsets #4 Villanova - 22/11; lose to Utah round of 32. A win over opponents like Oregon happened at least once a year. U should understand those wins are not what fuel the frustration of many fans here who dedicate a lot of time / money / effort in supporting the school's team. But win is a win, and I will take that. Last year sucked. Yesterday's win was very nice, gives us hope - but it was only one win. But you need to stop trying to characterize a 22-11 season, with a #4 seed losing to a #5 seed, as some type of terrible disappointment. Though that season was still considered underachievement, you are right ot was not some kinda terrible disappointment in comparison to craps like dunk city, ohio, vcu, last year etc. But because it was simply considered as underachievement, that season is simply included in the downward trend the program has currently been.
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Post by aleutianhoya on Nov 22, 2016 9:02:10 GMT -5
Last year sucked. Yesterday's win was very nice, gives us hope - but it was only one win. But you need to stop trying to characterize a 22-11 season, with a #4 seed losing to a #5 seed, as some type of terrible disappointment. Though that season was still considered underachievement, you are right ot was not some kinda terrible disappointment in comparison to craps like dunk city, ohio, vcu, last year etc. But because it was simply considered as underachievement, that season is simply included in the downward trend the program has currently been. How was that season considered underachievement? We were coming off an NIT year, entered the season justifiably unranked, and lost what many considered our most (or second most) indispensable player in Markel. Despite that, we beat ranked teams in Florida, Villanova, and Butler and lost competitive games against a number of other very good teams (Kansas, Xavier, etc.). We had a grand total of one bad loss the entire season -- and that one was a league game on the road (St. John's). We ended the season ranked and on the strength of our very difficult schedule, we got a top four seed. We beat a mid-major in the NCAA first round (we won an NCAA game!!! against the kind of team that seems to be our kryptonite!!!!). And then we lost a very competitive game to a similarly seeded major conference team (a team that -- and I know facts are difficult -- was higher ranked and a Vegas favorite entering the game). Was it a wonderful season? Well, no. But disappointing? Underachieving? I just don't see it. And I don't think any fair-minded person can see it.
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AltoSaxa
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,126
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Post by AltoSaxa on Nov 22, 2016 9:10:04 GMT -5
May also want to post this: www.espn.com/blog/collegebasketballnation/post/_/id/116466/georgetown-is-a-mystery-for-the-second-straight-yearEven a successful season (however you may define) does not, in an of itself, negate JTIII's underachievement. The use of the word "hater" is juvenile at best to describe those of us who like the man but not the coach. If JTIII was your financial adviser would you retain him based on past performance? I hope the season is successful this year but one year does not define a successful (on court) program. Let's hope it continues.
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Post by ColumbiaHeightsHoya on Nov 22, 2016 9:28:55 GMT -5
The haters are nowhere to be found. The Silence is UNREAL! OK, I'll bite. The Oregon game was a reflection of the maddening inconsistency of his teams. Great first half followed by an 8 minute junk show to start the half. Bad ballhandling and composure that we saw in the Ark St. game reared its head again with Rodney trying to dribble through the entire defense and Jagan, Tre & Mulmore all finding the corner and waiting for the trap to come. Lessons clearly not learned from the prior s**t show against Ark St. I hope we sweep through this tourney, the lightbulb goes on, and we have a great season. The reason my hopes are muted however are found in prior years successes & subsequent failures. Cuse, Xavier & Wisconsin last year, Florida, Indiana & Nova the year before, VCU, Sparty & Creighton the year before. JTIII teams always have good wins every season. What they also unfortunately have are terrible eyeball tearing out losses. We already have one solid one this year and two unexplainable losses. We are 2-2 and at the bottom of the Big East standings. Let's not celebrate until we beat Wisconsin and hopefully UNC. Then maybe the spark will have gone off and I will gladly fall on my sword to say I was wrong about JTIII (also, for the record, I have largely been an apologist until Ark ST. over the past fifteen years).
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Post by lancasterhoyafan on Nov 22, 2016 10:22:16 GMT -5
I've always been a huge supporter of JT3. Super nice man who is a great representation of a fantastic University and clean program. I will ride this season out because I know he's trying with the staff and player additions. If this year ends up as a similar result of last season, then I may not feel the same. Like any high profile position it's about the bottom line. I've seen people let go for much less.
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bostonfan
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 2,531
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Post by bostonfan on Nov 22, 2016 10:27:41 GMT -5
I am in no way a JT3 hater, but I think he does need to continue to make some changes in the program so that they play to their potential every night. It is frustrating to watch them beat a really good team last night after losing to a team they should have blown out a few nights earlier. He does have enough good players to compete for a Big East title and those players can, and have, played at a high level at times. It is developing the consistency that seems to be the missing link. There is an old coaching philosophy that says "you play the way you practice", and while I have never been at one of their practices, if I had to guess I think that they could probably increase the intensity and focus at practice and that would help the team play at a consistently higher level. If the players are expected to practice with intensity, focus and maximum effort at all times, then you can expect them to play that way in games all the time. If some players can't, or won't, practice that way then they should not play in the games. I am not sure how else to explain the lack of focus and intensity that the Hoyas play with at times over the last few years. Sometimes, like last night, they come out and play great, and other times they seem to be going through the motions and that should not happen with a college team with the talent they have. College age players are going to make physical mistakes and that is understandable, but there are too many players on this team that don't seem to bring the same level of intensity to the games every night.
I think JT3 is a great representative for the school, a good recruiter and knowledgable teacher of the game. Maybe it is a case were he is just too nice a guy to the players and does not push them hard enough to get the most out of them every night. I like the fact that they are playing faster the is year and seem to have improved in some ways in the way they defend, but he needs to fix the issue with consistency for the program to really move forward. In the end he is responsible for the effort he gets out of his team every night.
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guru
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 6,652
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Post by guru on Nov 22, 2016 10:38:51 GMT -5
The haters are nowhere to be found. The Silence is UNREAL! OK, I'll bite. The Oregon game was a reflection of the maddening inconsistency of his teams. Great first half followed by an 8 minute junk show to start the half. Bad ballhandling and composure that we saw in the Ark St. game reared its head again with Rodney trying to dribble through the entire defense and Jagan, Tre & Mulmore all finding the corner and waiting for the trap to come. Lessons clearly not learned from the prior s**t show against Ark St. And the end game was an utter s-show - lessons not learned from the Maryland debacle. It was a great win and I'm happy for the team and staff, but you're not paying attention if that 17 point halftime lead didn't send shivers down your spine (even if it didn't bring back memories of the Davidson loss after a 17 point lead that started this whole mess). It's impossible to know whether yesterday will be like the Xavier game was last season (certainly one of the most inexplicable results of the entire 2015-16 college hoops season) or whether it's a signal that this team is different. More generally, haters is a juvenile term. Grow up. These are genuine issues within this program, and the people discussing them have as much passion for the school and team as you do.
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sleepy
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 6,079
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Post by sleepy on Nov 22, 2016 10:47:35 GMT -5
OK, I'll bite. The Oregon game was a reflection of the maddening inconsistency of his teams. Great first half followed by an 8 minute junk show to start the half. Bad ballhandling and composure that we saw in the Ark St. game reared its head again with Rodney trying to dribble through the entire defense and Jagan, Tre & Mulmore all finding the corner and waiting for the trap to come. Lessons clearly not learned from the prior s**t show against Ark St. And the end game was an utter s-show - lessons not learned from the Maryland debacle. It was a great win and I'm happy for the team and staff, but you're not paying attention if that 17 point halftime lead didn't send shivers down your spine (even if it didn't bring back memories of the Davidson loss after a 17 point lead that started this whole mess). It's impossible to know whether yesterday will be like the Xavier game was last season (certainly one of the most inexplicable results of the entire 2015-16 college hoops season) or whether it's a signal that this team is different. More generally, haters is a juvenile term. Grow up. These are genuine issues within this program, and the people discussing them have as much passion for the school and team as you do. Idk about the premise of this thread, III still has a ton to do before getting off the hot seat. However, lessons were clearly learned from the Maryland game. Players took timeouts instead of turning it over, not stupid fouls without the clock running, and we took some time off the clock. Was it perfect? No. was it still too sloppy? Yes. But you don't go from the debacle that was Maryland to perfection or really even good in just six days. III and the team give us plenty to be critical about, no need to be unfair with it.
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Post by professorhoya on Nov 22, 2016 11:41:08 GMT -5
May also want to post this: www.espn.com/blog/collegebasketballnation/post/_/id/116466/georgetown-is-a-mystery-for-the-second-straight-yearEven a successful season (however you may define) does not, in an of itself, negate JTIII's underachievement. The use of the word "hater" is juvenile at best to describe those of us who like the man but not the coach. If JTIII was your financial adviser would you retain him based on past performance? I hope the season is successful this year but one year does not define a successful (on court) program. Let's hope it continues. I agree. Hot Seat is juvenile.
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