SSHoya
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Post by SSHoya on May 24, 2017 13:35:15 GMT -5
SS, correct me if I am wrong but doesn't impeachment and conviction have to involve high crimes and misdemeanors? As for your second point, maybe the IC spied on Trump associates for political purposes. I have heard the NSA admitted late last year it had violated FISA rules in spying on someone(s). 1. No, impeachment proceedings do NOT have to involve a violation of criminal law despite the language of the Constitution. See e.g. the impeachment of Andrew Johnson. www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/05/20/andrew-johnson-impeachment-donald-trump-215166"The impeachment process is political in nature, not criminal. Congress has no power to impose criminal penalties on impeached officials. But criminal courts may try and punish officials if they have committed crimes." www.crf-usa.org/impeachment/high-crimes-and-misdemeanors.htmlThe generally accepted view (supported by an opinion from the Office of Legal Counsel, Department of Justice) is that a sitting President cannot be indicted for a crime but the remedy is impeachment. The fact remains that impeachment is a political process. Criminal penalties or sentences cannot be levied by Congress. And federal lawyers in the Attorney General’s office have determined in the past that it's unconstitutional to indict a sitting president because it would keep the executive branch from performing its job. “An impeachment proceeding is the only appropriate way to deal with a president while in office,” Assistant Attorney General Robert Dixon explained in 1973 in the first opinion of the Justice Department’s Office of Legal Counsel. www.newsweek.com/trump-comey-laws-constitution-6110662. No, the IC did not spy on Trump associates for political purposes. This has been discussed over and over again. The fact is the Trump associates were caught in incidental collection when they contacted Russians, whether domestically or overseas. The NSA/FBI had Court-authorized electronic surveillance upon the Russian targets and picked up the conversations of the Trump associates leading the CIA to refer to the FBI for a foreign counterintelligence investigation given the number and nature of the conversations. Fox News and Trump partisans such as Devin Nunes have been pushing fake news to imply that FBI/NSA targeted Trump and his associates. This is simply false except for Carter Page, for whom the FBI secured a warrant for electronic surveillance of Page after filing a warrant application before the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court (FISC) where I practiced for six years. The FBI persuaded the FISC that probable cause existed that Page was acting as an agent of a foreign power, Russia. One of Page's contacts, Evgeny Buryakov spent time in federal prison for being an unregistered agent of Russia when he was working in a Russian bank under nonofficial cover (thus he had no diplomatic immunity) for a Russian-owned development bank. Evgeny Evgenievich Buryakov (Russian: Евгений Евгеньевич Буряков; born c. 1975) is a convicted Russian spy. He was arrested on January 26, 2015, charged with, and pleading guilty to, spying on the United States for the Russian Foreign Intelligence Service (SVR). Buryakov was a New York-based Deputy Representative of Vnesheconombank, Russia's state-owned national development bank. Buryakov operated with non-official cover, and was thus not entitled to diplomatic immunity. Buryakov conducted his espionage with the assistance of Igor Sporyshev, Trade Representative of the Russian Federation to New York, and Victor Podobnyy, an Attaché to the Permanent Mission of the Russian Federation to the United Nations. In exchange for pleading guilty, Buryakov received a reduced sentence of 30 months in federal prison and fined $100,000. He was released early from prison on 31 March 2017 and deported from the United States six days later. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evgeny_BuryakovOh, BTW, Jared Kushner met with the CEO of Vnesheconombank (VEB) in December 2016 which he failed to disclose on his SF-86 security form. The CEO of VEB is a "former" FSB intelligence officer. Kushner also met Ambassador Kisylak with Flynn and both failed to disclose that meeting on their SF-86s. Kushner's SF-86 was submitted less than a month after the December 2016 and he "forgot." I guess it's just a coincidence? President Donald Trump's son-in-law and top adviser, Jared Kushner, met with the CEO of Russia's state-owned Vnesheconombank in December 2016, The New York Times reported on Monday. The meeting — which had not previously been disclosed and came on the heels of Kushner's meeting with Russia's ambassador to the US, Sergey Kislyak, at Trump Tower — recently caught the eye of the Senate Intelligence Committee, which is investigating Russia's interference in the 2016 election and whether any members of Trump's campaign were complicit. www.businessinsider.com/jared-kushner-russia-vnesheconombank-ceo-putin-2017-3(Ed, I apologize if I'm coming across as too sarcastic or snarky but the Russian investigation and misstatements about it irk me based upon particular knowledge I have on much of the matters under discussion here).
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SSHoya
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Post by SSHoya on May 24, 2017 18:15:06 GMT -5
And this from the foreign counterintelligence perspective: WASHINGTON — American spies collected information last summer revealing that senior Russian intelligence and political officials were discussing how to exert influence over Donald J. Trump through his advisers, according to three current and former American officials familiar with the intelligence. www.nytimes.com/2017/05/24/us/politics/russia-trump-manafort-flynn.html?smprod=nytcore-ipad&smid=nytcore-ipad-shareThe RIS spent years cultivating these advisers and Trump was the target of the covert influence -- a useful dupe? The RIS thinks long term and cultivates individuals as John Brennan said yesterday who may end up on a treasonous path and not even know it. Unwitting v. witting agents for the Russians. The Russians play chess, Americans play checkers.
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hoyarooter
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Post by hoyarooter on May 24, 2017 18:38:57 GMT -5
Here's what Netanyahu said about Trump's work in the Middle East: "But for the first time in many years -- and, Mr. President, for the first time in my lifetime -- I see a real hope for change." Doesn't sound like a lukewarm endorsement to me. "the first time in my lifetime" sounds like something I would expect Trump to say. That aside, of course Bibi praised him. It's well known that Bibi and Obama hated each other, and I believe there is plenty of blame to go around for that. I'm also sure that plenty was said about Trump's diarrhea of the mouth in private.
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EasyEd
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Post by EasyEd on May 24, 2017 19:04:02 GMT -5
SS, At the federal level, Article II of the United States Constitution states in Section 4 that "The President, Vice President, and all civil Officers of the United States shall be removed from Office on Impeachment for, and conviction of, Treason, Bribery, or other High Crimes and Misdemeanors." From my non-lawyer standpoint that indicates no lawyer, judge or court can change that to include political reasons. We either have a constitution or we do not. I don't care what any court has since said or how Andrew Johnson was charged. As for your statement that the IC did not spy on Trump associates for political purposes, there is no way you can be sure of that. Reports today are: "More than 5 percent, or one out of every 20 searches seeking upstream Internet data on Americans inside the NSA’s so-called Section 702 database violated the safeguards Obama and his intelligence chiefs vowed to follow in 2011, according to one classified internal report reviewed by Circa. The Obama administration self-disclosed the problems at a closed-door hearing Oct. 26 before the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court that set off alarm. Trump was elected less than two weeks later. The normally supportive court censured administration officials, saying the failure to disclose the extent of the violations earlier amounted to an “institutional lack of candor” and that the improper searches constituted a “very serious Fourth Amendment issue,” according to a recently unsealed court document dated April 26, 2017. circa.com/politics/barack-obamas-team-secretly-disclosed-years-of-illegal-nsa-searches-spying-on-americansThere is no indication one way or another whether these illegal searches included any Trump associates but who knows what an independent Mueller might find.
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SSHoya
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Post by SSHoya on May 24, 2017 19:59:08 GMT -5
SS, At the federal level, Article II of the United States Constitution states in Section 4 that "The President, Vice President, and all civil Officers of the United States shall be removed from Office on Impeachment for, and conviction of, Treason, Bribery, or other High Crimes and Misdemeanors." From my non-lawyer standpoint that indicates no lawyer, judge or court can change that to include political reasons. We either have a constitution or we do not. I don't care what any court has since said or how Andrew Johnson was charged. As for your statement that the IC did not spy on Trump associates for political purposes, there is no way you can be sure of that. Reports today are: "More than 5 percent, or one out of every 20 searches seeking upstream Internet data on Americans inside the NSA’s so-called Section 702 database violated the safeguards Obama and his intelligence chiefs vowed to follow in 2011, according to one classified internal report reviewed by Circa. The Obama administration self-disclosed the problems at a closed-door hearing Oct. 26 before the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court that set off alarm. Trump was elected less than two weeks later. The normally supportive court censured administration officials, saying the failure to disclose the extent of the violations earlier amounted to an “institutional lack of candor” and that the improper searches constituted a “very serious Fourth Amendment issue,” according to a recently unsealed court document dated April 26, 2017. circa.com/politics/barack-obamas-team-secretly-disclosed-years-of-illegal-nsa-searches-spying-on-americansThere is no indication one way or another whether these illegal searches included any Trump associates but who knows what an independent Mueller might find. Ed, if you wish to rely upon your misreading of the Constitution regardless of origins and the development of the law regarding impeachment, so be it. I suggest you read Marbury v. Madison in which it is established that the Article III courts have the power of judicial review of the laws and the Constitution. So you can ignore precedent of the Andrew Johnson impeachment but that's exactly what it is. Non-lawyers often misinterpret laws and the Constitution. Impeachment can occur for abuse of the public trust and abuse of office which are not necessarily crimes. "Impeachment comes from British constitutional history. The process evolved from the 14th century as a way for parliament to hold the king’s ministers accountable for their public actions. Impeachment, as Alexander Hamilton of New York explained in Federalist 65, varies from civil or criminal courts in that it strictly involves the “misconduct of public men, or in other words from the abuse or violation of some public trust.” Individual state constitutions had provided for impeachment for “maladministration” or “corruption” before the U.S. Constitution was written. And the founders, fearing the potential for abuse of executive power, considered impeachment so important that they made it part of the Constitution even before they defined the contours of the presidency." history.house.gov/Institution/Origins-Development/Impeachment/By political act (not criminal act) I do not mean partisan political activity. Do you give the weight to the Emoluments Clause of the Constitution, which is not a criminal matter, but imposes Constitutional restrictions upon the receipt of foreign money, gifts, etc by the President? And if a President violates the Emoluments Clause it is not necessarily a crime but an abuse of office? rdeliason.com/2016/11/29/the-emoluments-clause-bribery-and-president-trump/Ed, 702 is NOT targeting any US person much less Trump advisers for political purposes. (I can't get into the technical nature of this collection and database which might go a long way into explaining 702). 702 is the statutory basis for incidental collection I mentioned initially and the "about" collection activities which is not targeting anyone. DOJ/National Security Division and NSA announced recently it will cease the "about" collection activities and the FISC approved the new targeting/minimization procedures. I had an earlier discussion of targeting/minimization procedures in this thread but don't feel like trying to dig up the explanation. Yes, the NSA screwed up but that had nothing to do with targeting Trump and his advisers. It is quite a leap to make that assumption and there is no evidence for it. In my years of handling foreign counterintelligence matters as an attorney-adviser to the FBI, I never once used 702 derived information in ary FISA warrant I drafted had to note whether it contained any 702 derived information. In my experience it is 99.9% focused on counterterrorism investigations and in discussions with my other retired colleagues we agreed it had very little to do with FCI. www.lawfareblog.com/foreign-intelligence-surveillance-court-approves-new-targeting-and-minimization-procedures-summaryEd, I give up. If you read the links I gave you earlier you should have a greater understanding of what I'm talking about regarding impeachment as a political act not a criminal matter. I doubt I can change your mind. And your understanding of 702 is incomplete at best.
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tashoya
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Post by tashoya on May 24, 2017 20:19:41 GMT -5
FWIW, obstruction of justice is against the law. At a minimum, that would be a misdemeanor. That would satisfy any definition Ed may interpret.
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tashoya
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Post by tashoya on May 24, 2017 20:20:46 GMT -5
Thanks to Ed for his questions and to SS for his explanations. Much appreciated.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2017 21:38:17 GMT -5
Israel Changed Intelligence Sharing With U.S. After Trump Comments to Russians Donald Trump disclosure of top secret Israeli intelligence to top Russian officials during a meeting in the Oval Office is not without repercussions. On Wednesday, Israeli Defense chief Avigdor Lieberman said his country tweaked its intelligence-sharing protocols with the United States after Trump’s off-script remarks. The latest offshoot of the Trump-Russia scandal came right before Trump’s first major international trip, which included a stop in Israel. Benjamin Netanyahu, Israel’s president, seemed willing to sweep the scandal under the rug to welcome Trump and his pro-Israel team with open arms. But Trump may have compounded the scandal on Monday by appearing to acknowledge the Islamic State intelligence came from Israel. “Just so you understand, I never mentioned the word or the name “Israel” during that conversation. They were all saying I did, so you had another story wrong,” he told a pack of reporters, next to a sheepish-looking Netanyahu. foreignpolicy.com/2017/05/24/israel-changed-intelligence-sharing-with-u-s-after-trump-comments-to-russians/
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SSHoya
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Post by SSHoya on May 25, 2017 6:16:44 GMT -5
This particular leak is not by Trump but is illustrative of how improper disclosure of classified information as Trump has done (his outing of Israel as a source and disclosing to Duterte the location of US nuclear subs) damages US intelligence relationships with other nations: “We greatly value the important relationships we have with our trusted intelligence, law enforcement and security partners around the world,” said the National Police Chiefs’ Council in a statement. “When that trust is breached it, undermines these relationships, and undermines our investigations and the confidence of victims, witnesses and their families. This damage is even greater when it involves unauthorized disclosure of potential evidence in the middle of a major counterterrorism investigation.” The growing frustration of British officials comes as allies are already smarting from Trump’s disclosure of classified information about an Islamic State threat to the Russian foreign minister and ambassador. Referring to Rudd’s remarks, he said that the “Five Eyes relationship is crucial to U.K. intelligence and security and for her to openly say how unhappy she is about this shows you how angry people are.” He noted that Rudd’s use of the word “irritating” should be seen from the lens of the British fondness for understandment. www.washingtonpost.com/world/british-outrage-over-alleged-us-leaks-in-the-manchester-bomb-investigation/2017/05/25/f21349e2-4b0b-4afd-ba06-333621cfa634_story.html?hpid=hp_rhp-top-table-main_britoutrage%3Ahomepage%2Fstory
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 25, 2017 8:57:40 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on May 25, 2017 10:20:26 GMT -5
What a speech. In the wake of a devastating terror attack against children in Manchester, Trump went off the cuff and took time time today to hit NATO over financial payments. Smh....
Nice speech/lecture from Trump about something he clearly does not understand. Not only is this stupid and tone deaf it shows he has no idea how Nato works as no NATO country owes us money for defense...
Friendly reminder that the only time Article V was invoked was after 9/11. Over 1100 soldiers from NATO allies have died in Afghanistan since.
Kremlin: Winning Nato/US: Nah
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 25, 2017 11:25:47 GMT -5
Putin would love to see a destabilized NATO.
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EasyEd
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Post by EasyEd on May 25, 2017 19:04:12 GMT -5
What a speech. In the wake of a devastating terror attack against children in Manchester, Trump went off the cuff and took time time today to hit NATO over financial payments. Smh.... Nice speech/lecture from Trump about something he clearly does not understand. Not only is this stupid and tone deaf it shows he has no idea how Nato works as no NATO country owes us money for defense... Friendly reminder that the only time Article V was invoked was after 9/11. Over 1100 soldiers from NATO allies have died in Afghanistan since. Kremlin: Winning Nato/US: Nah What a nitpicker. Trump rightly criticized those NATO members who had allowed the U.S. and its taxpayers to fund over half of the cost of NATO.
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SSHoya
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Post by SSHoya on May 25, 2017 19:25:01 GMT -5
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 25, 2017 21:36:30 GMT -5
What a speech. In the wake of a devastating terror attack against children in Manchester, Trump went off the cuff and took time time today to hit NATO over financial payments. Smh.... Nice speech/lecture from Trump about something he clearly does not understand. Not only is this stupid and tone deaf it shows he has no idea how Nato works as no NATO country owes us money for defense... Friendly reminder that the only time Article V was invoked was after 9/11. Over 1100 soldiers from NATO allies have died in Afghanistan since. Kremlin: Winning Nato/US: Nah What a nitpicker. Trump rightly criticized those NATO members who had allowed the U.S. and its taxpayers to fund over half of the cost of NATO. That might be how it's playing out on FoxNews and on the right in general but nowhere else. All these things will have an impact, you can't view his actions as a one off. If he felt so strongly about this was there a need or any particular strategy in doing this in public vs private? Yesterday you praised Trump was strengthening relationships with ME countries. Nato is our stongest ally. What Nato leader does Trump have a strong relationship with?
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SSHoya
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Post by SSHoya on May 26, 2017 5:07:57 GMT -5
What a speech. In the wake of a devastating terror attack against children in Manchester, Trump went off the cuff and took time time today to hit NATO over financial payments. Smh.... Nice speech/lecture from Trump about something he clearly does not understand. Not only is this stupid and tone deaf it shows he has no idea how Nato works as no NATO country owes us money for defense... Friendly reminder that the only time Article V was invoked was after 9/11. Over 1100 soldiers from NATO allies have died in Afghanistan since. Kremlin: Winning Nato/US: Nah What a nitpicker. Trump rightly criticized those NATO members who had allowed the U.S. and its taxpayers to fund over half of the cost of NATO. Over half? I understand the point but I don't know where you get your facts. Secretary of Defense Gates under the Obama Administration made the same point as well. Mr. Gates complained of what he called a “two-tiered” membership structure, “between those willing and able to pay the price and bear the burdens of commitments, and those who enjoy the benefits of NATO membership but don’t want to share the risks and the costs.” He added that some NATO partners are “apparently willing and eager for American taxpayers to assume the growing security burden left by reductions in European defense budgets.” www.nytimes.com/2011/06/11/world/europe/11gates.htmlThe United States contributed more than 22 percent of the organization’s budget in 2016, according to White House data, far outpacing all other members. The government spent 3.6 percent of GDP, or $664 billion, on defense. Out of all 28 countries that belonged to NATO at the start of this year, only five met the minimum contribution level in 2016—the U.S., Greece, the U.K., Estonia and Poland. Even Fox got the NATO contributions correctly: www.foxbusiness.com/politics/2017/05/25/trump-slams-nato-cheapskates-who-pays-what.htmlAnd I'll take Admiral Stavridis's opinion over Don "Bone Spurs" Trump anyday: time.com/4417061/donald-trump-wrong-about-nato/An interesting opinion by Michael Gerson (an establishment Republican): The conservative mind, in some very visible cases, has become diseased. The movement has been seized by a kind of discrediting madness, in which conspiracy delusions figure prominently. Institutions and individuals that once served an important ideological role, providing a balance to media bias, are discrediting themselves in crucial ways. With the blessings of a president, they have abandoned the normal constraints of reason and compassion. They have allowed political polarization to reach their hearts, and harden them. They have allowed polarization to dominate their minds, and empty them. www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-conservative-mind-has-become-diseased/2017/05/25/523f0964-4159-11e7-9869-bac8b446820a_story.html?utm_term=.d1516a54b78f
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 26, 2017 8:08:29 GMT -5
www.yahoo.com/news/trump-reportedly-called-germans-apos-224332980.htmlBMW has a plant in South Carolina, Mercedes is in Alabama, VW is in Tennessee. These companies have built plants in the United States to build cars that are sold mostly in the United States, and have created thousands of jobs for Americans. The President of the United States has no understanding of how the global economy works.
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tashoya
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Post by tashoya on May 26, 2017 9:43:49 GMT -5
www.yahoo.com/news/trump-reportedly-called-germans-apos-224332980.htmlBMW has a plant in South Carolina, Mercedes is in Alabama, VW is in Tennessee. These companies have built plants in the United States to build cars that are sold mostly in the United States, and have created thousands of jobs for Americans. The President of the United States has no understanding of how the global economy works. Add "global economy" to the ever-growing list.
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SSHoya
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Post by SSHoya on May 26, 2017 18:41:54 GMT -5
Repeat after me: the Russians aren't our friends, the Russians aren't our friends. Kushner's failure to reveal his contacts with the Russians on his SF-86 (a felony) now makes sense since concealment of the transition team's contact with the Russians was the apparent goal. This backchannel would be set up to avoid surveillance from the USIC. The question is why? Just how much $$$$ have the Russians invested in Trump/Kushner organizations? Is there a quid pro quo? What did Kushner discuss with the CEO of VEB, the Moscow-controlled national development bank who was appointed by Putin and a former Russian intelligence officer? Kushner, at minimum, should have his security clearance yanked. When will the spineless unprincipled Republicans on the Hill get off their asses and put country over party? Jared Kushner and Russia’s ambassador to Washington discussed the possibility of setting up a secret and secure communications channel between Trump’s transition team and the Kremlin, using Russian diplomatic facilities in an apparent move to shield their pre-inauguration discussions from monitoring, according to U.S. officials briefed on intelligence reports. www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/russian-ambassador-told-moscow-that-kushner-wanted-secret-communications-channel-with-kremlin/2017/05/26/520a14b4-422d-11e7-9869-bac8b446820a_story.html
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tashoya
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Post by tashoya on May 26, 2017 19:07:34 GMT -5
When will the spineless unprincipled Republicans on the Hill get off their asses and put country over party? I think we already know the answer to this one. That's what makes it both depressing and, honestly, scary.
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