BET Semis 3/14/15: Georgetown - Xavier Discussion

[DanMcQ]

hoyatalk2.proboards.com/post/630986/thread

[hoyacane11]

I see the same old excuses still abound. Truth is JTIII got outcoached yet again. I hope you guys aren't expecting a run in the tournament because you will be disappointed. The lack of adjustments by this team is frustrating to say the least.

[jwp91]

Mar 14, 2015 12:52:02 GMT -5 calhoya said:

Well actually I think that the problem is that we do not have all the pieces. We do not have enough shooters to run our offense. We have two incomplete posts--one who cannot play offense but rebounds and defends well and one who cannot play defense or stay out of foul trouble. We have a streaky star guard without a shooter's mentality. Jabril is all heart and sometimes not enough head. Bowen runs, jumps and scores from within 5 feet but struggles from the outside.Freshmen with great potential but still young and still learning and still erratic. Talent? Yes, no question. But the real issue is whether our talent "fits" the system and is complementary.

From my read, it sounds like they need to take the yellow brick road to the Emerald City to see the Wizard.

[hoyacane11]

Mar 14, 2015 13:03:10 GMT -5 jwp91 said:

Mar 14, 2015 12:52:02 GMT -5 calhoya said:

Well actually I think that the problem is that we do not have all the pieces. We do not have enough shooters to run our offense. We have two incomplete posts--one who cannot play offense but rebounds and defends well and one who cannot play defense or stay out of foul trouble. We have a streaky star guard without a shooter's mentality. Jabril is all heart and sometimes not enough head. Bowen runs, jumps and scores from within 5 feet but struggles from the outside.Freshmen with great potential but still young and still learning and still erratic. Talent? Yes, no question. But the real issue is whether our talent "fits" the system and is complementary.

From my read, it sounds like they need to take the yellow brick road to the Emerald City to see the Wizard.

We could switch teams with them and they'd still beat us. We just got outcoached.

[hoyasaxa2003]

Mar 14, 2015 13:02:18 GMT -5 hoyacane11 said:

I see the same old excuses still abound. Truth is JTIII got outcoached yet again. I hope you guys aren't expecting a run in the tournament because you will be disappointed. The lack of adjustments by this team is frustrating to say the least.

This is the standard "we don't make adjustments" copy/paste from the anti-JTIII crowd. In the Creighton game, JTIII adjusted to a zone defense which likely won the game.

Against Xavier, after a horrible stretch, we started pressing more, and our guys began hitting shots. Granted, I think much of the difference is that we made shots we weren't previously hitting, but I think it's hard to say we made no adjustments after we closed a 20 point deficit.

The "lack of adjustments" cliche is really uninformed and getting old because the evidence really doesn't show that to be the case.

[DanMcQ]

Laying last night 100% at the feet of the coaching staff is as myopic as putting the same amount on the players alone. It was a TEAM loss. It's not like this coach is trotting the 75-76 Indiana Hoosier lineup out there.

[hoyacane11]

Mar 14, 2015 13:10:27 GMT -5 hoyasaxa2003 said:

Mar 14, 2015 13:02:18 GMT -5 hoyacane11 said:

I see the same old excuses still abound. Truth is JTIII got outcoached yet again. I hope you guys aren't expecting a run in the tournament because you will be disappointed. The lack of adjustments by this team is frustrating to say the least.

This is the standard "we don't make adjustments" copy/paste from the anti-JTIII crowd. In the Creighton game, JTIII adjusted to a zone defense which likely won the game.

Against Xavier, after a horrible stretch, we started pressing more, and our guys began hitting shots. Granted, I think much of the difference is that we made shots we weren't previously hitting, but I think it's hard to say we made no adjustments after we closed a 20 point deficit.

The "lack of adjustments" cliche is really uninformed and getting old because the evidence really doesn't show that to be the case.

Funny you mention an adjustment vs one of the worst teams in the league, a team we should have never been in a dog fight with in the first place. Name some adjustments vs some of the better teams, one of the ones we went 5-10 against.

Tell me how many Xavier players you would take over ours. That guy just outcoaches JTIII every time. Like I said before, we do too much reacting instead of DICTATING pace, tempo, and style of play. Everything we do is reactionary. You mention we started pressing, yes, that was out of desperation from getting our butts kicked. We should have been pressing all year, in spurts, but we only do it when we're losing. That's not the sign of a great coach. As a role model and a man, I love JTIII, but he is not a great coach, not close.

[Deleted]

Chris Mack should snd JT3 a fruit basket - we singlehandedly put Xavier into the tournament. If you remove their three games against us, they're squarely on the bubble:

7-9 in conference, 3 Top 25-ish wins (Butler x 2, Providence), four really bad losses (Creighton, DePaul, Long Beach State, Auburn). Middling at best.

[hoyasaxa2003]

Mar 14, 2015 13:25:28 GMT -5 hoyacane11 said:

Funny you mention an adjustment vs one of the worst teams in the league, a team we should have never been in a dog fight with in the first place. Name some adjustments vs some of the better teams, one of the ones we went 5-10 against. Tell me how many Xavier players you would take over ours. That guy just outcoaches JTIII every time. Like I said before, we do too much reacting instead of DICTATING pace, tempo, and style of play. Everything we do is reactionary. You mention we started pressing, yes, that was out of desperation from getting our butts kicked. We should have been pressing all year, in spurts, but we only do it when we're losing. That's not the sign of a great coach. As a role model and a man, I love JTIII, but he is not a great coach, not close.

So, you are admitting it was an adjustment against Creighton, you just choose to ignore it because you say Creighton isn't good. And, you totally ignore any adjustments made that led to our comeback last night. Or you call it "desperation" when we pressed (if we hadn't pressed, you surely would have criticized JTIII for not "adjusting" and pressing to speed up the game when we needed it).

JTIII has made plenty of adjustments this year. He stopped playing Hopkins and Smith together. He began giving Copeland more time, as deserved. He's switched up defenses at times, when needed. Listen, I am not saying JTIII is a perfect coach, but if you are going to lay criticism at his feet, it needs to be legitimate criticism.

The fact that you are rationalizing away his adjustment above proves that you simply want to make your point that JTIII is a bad coach. There's nothing wrong with expressing that opinion at all. I just take issue with your use of baseless facts to prove your case.

[canissaxa]

I know there are many people who don't like statistics but if you are going to make an argument that our shooters are worse or don't develop, could we use more than one data point?

Off the top of my head, I believe that Starks and Freeman both increased their 3pt percentage year over year.

I could look up the data, but I am not the one trying to prove a hypothesis.

If you suspect that we are consistently, year over year a worse shooting team than our peers or that our players don't develop shooting, find the data to support such a strong claim. Not annecdotes without baseline comparisons.

[njhoya78]

Sorry, guys, but I'll have to disagree on this one. Xavier is 30th in RPI, 26th in ESPN's BPI, and 15th in strength of schedule. They are 33d nationally in points per game and 25th in field goal percentage. They were not on the bubble. And you can't discount the three games against us, any more than you can over-emphasize losses to Creighton and DePaul.

Perhaps some of us should consider giving some credit where credit is due. Chris Mack had a game plan against GU which his Musketeers have executed very well. It is not a comparison of whether there are any XU players we would take over any Hoya; joke as we might about Matt Stainbrook, until he ran out of gas in the final minutes, he played very, very well (ever see him take a bad shot?). Think we'd find some room in the rotation for a pure shooter like J.P. Macura? How about for a forward with the toughness of Jalen Reynolds? Let's be honest: they have outplayed us, as a team, for approximately 80 of the 120 minutes we have played them.

Do I believe that GU is a better team than Xavier? Notwithstanding the record this season, I would say yes. But the margin between GU and XU is very slim. It comes down, ultimately, to execution. For the first eight minutes and the last eight minutes, we executed. For the intervening 24 minutes. . .not so much.

The challenge is for JT3 to get this team to now bear down and execute for forty minutes, in the NCAAs. Can any of us be certain that it will happen? No. But I also discount the possibility of it definitely not happening. Hoya basketball is now like that box of chocolates in Forrest Gump; you never quite know just what you're going to get.

[Nevada Hoya]

Not having seen the game and not having read most of the comments in this thread (or the thread that disappeared), I only want to say that I was encouraged about a couple of the frosh coming to light. If they continue on this upward trend (sample: 1), DSR plays like he usually does, Josh avoids fouls, and Jabril continues his mighty effort, we can win the next game and MAYBE one other. Then we just cross our fingers and hope for the best.

[hoyacane11]

Mar 14, 2015 13:34:37 GMT -5 hoyasaxa2003 said:

Mar 14, 2015 13:25:28 GMT -5 hoyacane11 said:

Funny you mention an adjustment vs one of the worst teams in the league, a team we should have never been in a dog fight with in the first place. Name some adjustments vs some of the better teams, one of the ones we went 5-10 against. Tell me how many Xavier players you would take over ours. That guy just outcoaches JTIII every time. Like I said before, we do too much reacting instead of DICTATING pace, tempo, and style of play. Everything we do is reactionary. You mention we started pressing, yes, that was out of desperation from getting our butts kicked. We should have been pressing all year, in spurts, but we only do it when we're losing. That's not the sign of a great coach. As a role model and a man, I love JTIII, but he is not a great coach, not close.

So, you are admitting it was an adjustment against Creighton, you just choose to ignore it because you say Creighton isn't good. And, you totally ignore any adjustments made that led to our comeback last night. Or you call it "desperation" when we pressed (if we hadn't pressed, you surely would have criticized JTIII for not "adjusting" and pressing to speed up the game when we needed it).

JTIII has made plenty of adjustments this year. He stopped playing Hopkins and Smith together. He began giving Copeland more time, as deserved. He's switched up defenses at times, when needed. Listen, I am not saying JTIII is a perfect coach, but if you are going to lay criticism at his feet, it needs to be legitimate criticism.

The fact that you are rationalizing away his adjustment above proves that you simply want to make your point that JTIII is a bad coach. There's nothing wrong with expressing that opinion at all. I just take issue with your use of baseless facts to prove your case.

Wow, you're really reaching, calling a change in lineup as an in-game adjustment. WOW! That's what you call baseless. Yes the pressing was out of desperation, that's a fact. That Xavier team beat us 3 times, and he was outcoached every single game. Like the previous poster said, they can than us for helping them get into the tournament. Good coaches don't allow a mediocre team own them 3 straight times. We lose to them because we get outcoached. They make adjustments, and make us uncomfortable, and we don't do the same...until were down 15 that is.

[hoyasaxa2003]

Mar 14, 2015 13:54:59 GMT -5 hoyacane11 said:

Wow, you're really reaching, calling a change in lineup as an in-game adjustment. WOW! That's what you call baseless. Yes the pressing was out of desperation, that's a fact. That Xavier team beat us 3 times, and he was outcoached every single game. Like the previous poster said, they can than us for helping them get into the tournament. Good coaches don't allow a mediocre team own them 3 straight times. We lose to them because we get outcoached. They make adjustments, and make us uncomfortable, and we don't do the same...until were down 15 that is.

What type of adjustments would you have made? Seriously, I want to know.

If Xavier is a "mediocre" team then we are also a "mediocre" team. Before the game, KenPom.com had Xavier as a 52 or 53% favorite over us, and winning by 2 points - the exact margin they won by. Sure, you might be angry about the loss, but the fact is last night featured two teams very close in skill level, which amounted to nearly a 50-50 matchup.

I really think some of the posters on this message board have a problem grappling with our losses because you think we are better than we are. We have been an inconsistent team all year, and we saw more of the same last night. It really shouldn't shock anybody. This is not a great shooting team and we didn't shoot well for most of the game last night.

[hoyacane11]

Mar 14, 2015 14:02:07 GMT -5 hoyasaxa2003 said:

Mar 14, 2015 13:54:59 GMT -5 hoyacane11 said:

Wow, you're really reaching, calling a change in lineup as an in-game adjustment. WOW! That's what you call baseless. Yes the pressing was out of desperation, that's a fact. That Xavier team beat us 3 times, and he was outcoached every single game. Like the previous poster said, they can than us for helping them get into the tournament. Good coaches don't allow a mediocre team own them 3 straight times. We lose to them because we get outcoached. They make adjustments, and make us uncomfortable, and we don't do the same...until were down 15 that is.

What type of adjustments would you have made? Seriously, I want to know.

If Xavier is a "mediocre" team then we are also a "mediocre" team. Before the game, KenPom.com had Xavier as a 52 or 53% favorite over us, and winning by 2 points - the exact margin they won by. Sure, you might be angry about the loss, but the fact is last night featured two teams very close in skill level, which amounted to nearly a 50-50 matchup.

I really think some of the posters on this message board have a problem grappling with our losses because you think we are better than we are. We have been an inconsistent team all year, and we saw more of the same last night. It really shouldn't shock anybody. This is not a great shooting team and we didn't shoot well for most of the game last night.

Yes they're mediocre. The reason KenPom had them favored is because they owned us the first two times. The reason they have the RPI ranking they have is because they kicked our arses twice. You and others keep talking about the players, but it's III's job to get them to execute. That's what he gets paid for. How come Xavier's coach has no problem with this, but ours does? I don't think we're better than we are, I just know we have better players than Xavier does. Who's fault is it that we're not a great or better shooting team? Who recruited these players? Who has control over what they do in practice? That's right, III does.

Saying he doesn't play the two bigs together, ever anymore isn't a great adjustment at all, it just goes to show how reactionary he is. I do agree they shouldn't play big minutes together, but they do need to be on the floor more than they are because that's OUR advantage. We could dominate the offensive and defensive boards with those two playing more together, and we're much better defensively, around the basket, when they play together.

[hoyasaxa2003]

JT3 has seen plenty of players with improvement:

Roy Hibbert: Hibbert came in as a freshman who was very poor offensively who became a lotto pick by the time he was a senior.

Henry Sims: Sims saw significant improvement during his sophomore to junior year, and then junior to senior year. I would add that Sims also basically stated that his dedication was renewed to basketball in the summer between sophomore and junior year. This lends more credence to the fact that a significant part of development is in the player's hands, and it's not all coaching.

Jeff Green: Statistically, Green also showed improvement while at Georgetown. While his stats dipped a bit from freshman to sophomore year, Green's junior year was clearly his best at Georgetown, which is one of the main reasons we made the Final Four (the other being Hibbert).

Jonathan Wallace: Wallace posted steadily increasing offensive efficiencies: 98.0, 117.2, 119.7, 121.8. I think the 121.8 his senior season is all the more impressive because Green was no longer on the team. He clearly improved in his time at Georgetown.

Wallace also saw general improvement in his threes, until senior year when he dipped a bit (but was still excellent): 37.3%, 40.8%, 49%, 44.7%.

Dajuan Summers: I know people like to dump on Summers, and he probably did not reach his full potential, but he actually did improve while at Georgetown - though not as significantly as some others.

Greg Monroe: Statistically, Monroe's two seasons were similar, but I would argue that he did become a better player over the two seasons, and he was basically immediately ready to play substantial minutes for an NBA team.

Chris Wright: Statistically, Wright clearly improved freshman to junior year (O ratings of 100.1, 107.8, 115.7). Wright did become less efficient his senior year, but he was still a very solid player, his three point shooting was virtually the same as his junior year, his FT percentage improved, and his assist rate went up significantly.

Austin Freeman: Freeman was a pretty great collegiate player his entire career (never posting an O rating less than 115.0), but he also showed some improvement. Considering that he kept up significant production despite the diabetes diagnosis shows me that he developed just fine.

Jason Clark: Clark was always a fairly talented scorer, but he improved throughout his time at Georgetown, especially junior into senior year. There was a time when Clark couldn't handle the ball without turning it over and when his defense was awful (we lost a game against St. John's one year where he lost his defender badly), and that improved substantially by the time of his senior season.

Markel Starks: Starks improved fairly significantly from freshman to junior year, despite regressing a bit last year. Still, I think Starks' supporting cast was better his first three years, so I am not sure you can necessarily blame Starks or the staff here. Starks 3 point shooting showed improvement, as well, but dipped his senior year - 25.7%, 36.7%, 41.7, and then 32.6% .

Otto Porter: Porter went from being a very good player his freshman year to being an outstanding player. His usage increased substantially, and he increased his efficiency, as well. His three point shooting went from 22.6% as a freshman to 42.2% as a sophomore - an outstanding improvement.

DSR: DSR's O rating has steadily improved - 104.1, 120.6, and 122.3 this year. His three point shooting has also improved (though not significantly from last year) - 33.6%, 39.3%, 39.5%.

Trawick: Track's O ratings are 106.6, 95.8, 110.2, 109.5. His three point shooting has steadily improved - 24%, 29,9%, 31.2%, 40.3%.

Thus, anybody who says that players don't improve under these coaches is simply ignoring our facts. The people that are often raised as not improving - Cameron, Domingo, etc. - tend to be players who have never demonstrated much skill to begin with.

[hoyasaxa2003]

Mar 14, 2015 14:16:32 GMT -5 hoyacane11 said:

Yes they're mediocre. The reason KenPom had them favored is because they owned us the first two times. The reason they have the RPI ranking they have is because they kicked our arses twice. You and others keep talking about the players, but it's III's job to get them to execute. That's what he gets paid for. How come Xavier's coach has no problem with this, but ours does? I don't think we're better than we are, I just know we have better players than Xavier does. Who's fault is it that we're not a great or better shooting team? Who recruited these players? Who has control over what they do in practice? That's right, III does.

Saying he doesn't play the two bigs together, ever anymore isn't a great adjustment at all, it just goes to show how reactionary he is. I do agree they shouldn't play big minutes together, but they do need to be on the floor more than they are because that's OUR advantage. We could dominate the offensive and defensive boards with those two playing more together, and we're much better defensively, around the basket, when they play together.

KenPom's ratings are based on the entire year - not simply the games we already played against Xavier, so you are wrong on that. It is JTIII's job to "get them to execute," but the players are the ones who need to execute. JTIII cannot magically wave a magic wand and force baskets to go in. The fact that our shooting suddenly improved drastically last night demonstrates that it's not just a matter of telling our guys to execute - they need to do it!

Since JTIII stopped playing Hopkins with Smith, the Hoyas have gone on a 7-2 run (including the tournament games). We were 7-5 in the Big East games where they did play together. There is no legitimate reason to play Hopkins and Smith together. They are foul machines and any benefit from rebounding during the 3-4 minutes they play together is easily outweighed by having to play minutes without a big man.

Again, anything I present as an adjustment you dismiss as "reactionary" or "desperation." You know what? Coaches should be reactionary. If something doesn't work well, you "react" and change your approach. That's why you don't play Hopkins with Smith, and that's why you press when you are behind.

I ask you again, what adjustments would you have made? What would you have done differently?

[hoyacane11]

lol, every one of those guys was a can't miss prospect coming out of high school except Jabril and Wallace. Only reason Otto wasn't was because he didn't go to camps. My thing is this, if you want to run that antiquated, ineffective offense, recruit some shooters, it's your job. We have a bunch of athletes being forced to run a stiff's offense, square peg, round hole. When was the last time you saw us score more than 2 baskets in a game off this backdoor garbage?
This offense needs to be scrapped!

[beenaround]

The posters battling about JTIII, all seem to have one thing in common, as best as I can tell. They create a strawman and go back and forth about it. The detractors say he is far from "a great coach." The defenders say, how dare you call him a "bad coach." I would not think that anyone really considers him to be a "bad coach" or a "great coach." I believe ESPN had him in their top 50, somewhere in the 40's? His record reflects a good , solid, major D1 coach. Nothing more, nothing less.

[hoyacane11]

Mar 14, 2015 14:25:47 GMT -5 beenaround said:

The posters battling about JTIII, all seem to have one thing in common, as best as I can tell. They create a strawman and go back and forth about it. The detractors say he is far from "a great coach." The defenders say, how dare you call him a "bad coach." I would not think that anyone really considers him to be a "bad coach" or a "great coach." I believe ESPN had him in their top 50, somewhere in the 40's? His record reflects a good , solid, major D1 coach. Nothing more, nothing less.

Agreed, question is, where do guys expect him to take us? If we want to be great again, I honestly don't feel it will happen under him. He has effectively tempered the expectations of most of the fan base. Now they just defend the poor performances and early exits like it's ok.