njhoya78
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Post by njhoya78 on Feb 7, 2015 17:56:00 GMT -5
That is exactly my point. We are not as good. Why do the majority of the posters expect better performance from what is, very clearly, a flawed team? By the way, have you watched Notre Dame at all this year? Georgetown has a far more talented roster than the Irish. We are "not as good" because Mike Bret is getting the most out of that roster, not because Notre Dame has more talent than the Hoyas do. That, and the fact that the Irish have played a much easier schedule. I have, and I respectfully disagree. We may have more potential, but they are more talented and the stats bear that out. Here are the numbers going into today's action: Games played: GU 22, ND 24 Points per game: GU 72, ND 81 FG%: GU 46.6, ND 52.1 3P%: GU 35.7, ND 40.4 FT%: GU 70.1, ND 71.6 Rebounds: GU 773, ND 825 Assists: GU 291, ND 370 Steals: GU 162, ND 161 Blocks: GU 116, ND 89 Turnovers: GU 290, ND 220 Aside from an advantage in steals and blocked shots, they are better than us in every other category. Every other category.
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njhoya78
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Post by njhoya78 on Feb 7, 2015 17:57:50 GMT -5
That is exactly my point. We are not as good. Why do the majority of the posters expect better performance from what is, very clearly, a flawed team? You expected the team to play this poorly today NJ? The great majority of us were very high on this team after the Marquette game, I honestly didn't see this plunge coming.. I did. Here is my prediction from the other thread: Feb 5, 2015 at 12:36am Post by njhoya78 on Feb 5, 2015 at 12:36am I'll be Debbie Downer again. Hey. it worked to our benefit the last time! Blue, Light Blue and White 85 Blue and Gray 71
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Post by FrazierFanatic on Feb 7, 2015 18:03:18 GMT -5
So we can't complain if we lose more games while they are learning and making mistakes, correct? I certainly agree that Paul had more skills on offense, but certainly not on defense, so when his offense stutters as it has lately, it is hard to justify giving him much time. Does anyone on the team make more mistakes than Hopkins? Hopkins is the best defender on the team but honestly that's not saying much.. To me it's a simple solution, stop playing Hopkins at the 4 spot.. Let Ike & Paul take those minutes.. Hop has been terrible at one end, good at the other. Paul has been bad at boyhendd the last 3-4 games, and Ike is not nearly strong enough to play defense st the 4. I am not willing to sacrifice this season just to give the freshmen experience
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hoyaboya
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Post by hoyaboya on Feb 7, 2015 18:03:18 GMT -5
By the way, have you watched Notre Dame at all this year? Georgetown has a far more talented roster than the Irish. We are "not as good" because Mike Bret is getting the most out of that roster, not because Notre Dame has more talent than the Hoyas do. That, and the fact that the Irish have played a much easier schedule. I have, and I respectfully disagree. We may have more potential, but they are more talented and the stats bear that out. Here are the numbers going into today's action: Games played: GU 22, ND 24 Points per game: GU 72, ND 81 FG%: GU 46.6, ND 52.1 3P%: GU 35.7, ND 40.4 FT%: GU 70.1, ND 71.6 Rebounds: GU 773, ND 825 Assists: GU 291, ND 370 Steals: GU 162, ND 161 Blocks: GU 116, ND 89 Turnovers: GU 290, ND 220 Aside from an advantage in steals and blocked shots, they are better than us in every other category. Every other category. I agree that ND is playing better than Georgetown this year. I'm not arguing that point at all. What I'm arguing is why ND is better. Do you think it's because ND has better talent? If so, I'd like to see some evidence of that being the case.
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Feb 7, 2015 18:08:42 GMT -5
You expected the team to play this poorly today NJ? The great majority of us were very high on this team after the Marquette game, I honestly didn't see this plunge coming.. I did. Here is my prediction from the other thread: Feb 5, 2015 at 12:36am Post by njhoya78 on Feb 5, 2015 at 12:36am I'll be Debbie Downer again. Hey. it worked to our benefit the last time! Blue, Light Blue and White 85 Blue and Gray 71 This prediction seems to mean you that thought they'd lose.. My question was did you think they would play as poorly as they did? Depending how the game plays out 85-71 doesn't necessarily mean the game was a blowout..
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2015 18:18:00 GMT -5
We're not playing defense very well, but at least we're making up for it by shooting like .
Xavier started the game up 29-12, in about 17 minutes Providence closed the game on a 28-12 run over the last 12 minutes or so Villanova started the game 30-13, in about 14-15 minutes, I think
Three runs that were almost identical, scorewise, that buried us in each of those games. We never got closer than 7 against X, never even got to single digits today, and blew a 13-point lead against Prov. All because we just got beat for 12, 14, 16 minutes at a time. Complete failures at both ends of the floor for huge stretches of time, three times in four games. And even against Creighton, we gave up like a 12-0 run over a 6-8 minute stretch in the first half before they forgot how to shoot.
We need some wins coming up, but if the staff and the players can't figure out how to stop the bleeding in these cases, we're going to struggle to get them.
And I have never seen a play like that turnover by Hop in the second half: he actually BEAT his man with a good spin move, and was clearly so surprised by his success that he forgot to lay the ball in. Defender recovers, and Hop just says "F**k this s**t" and tosses the ball out of bounds. Unbelievable. How do the other guys react when they're all sitting in the team room watching film? I wish I could be a fly on the wall for that one.
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njhoya78
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Post by njhoya78 on Feb 7, 2015 18:18:43 GMT -5
I expected that 'Nova would control the game, and that they would ultimately extend to a double-digit final margin. I did not expect that we would shoot as poorly as we did, and that they would get to a double-digit lead early in the game.. The turnovers have been a problem all year, and I expected that would be the case again today. Unfortunately, that part was borne out early in the game, and once 'Nova got on that 13-0 run, we were cooked.
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Filo
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Post by Filo on Feb 7, 2015 18:40:26 GMT -5
That is exactly my point. We are not as good. Why do the majority of the posters expect better performance from what is, very clearly, a flawed team? Because we were picked second in the Big East preseason and have lost 3 of the last 5, including home games vs. Xavier and Providence. We're staring at somewhere between 4th and 6th in the conference with a team that appears to be regressing. It's not just today's game people are upset about, it's the disappointment in what appears to be another underachieving team. I think that is a pretty good summary of the sentiment, although I would just say "an underachieving team," rather than " another underachieving team". That is exactly my point. We are not as good. Why do the majority of the posters expect better performance from what is, very clearly, a flawed team? The faster people realize this team is around #30-35 in the country and will end up up as a 7 or 8 seed the better. It puts the losses into context and makes our wins more special. The nice thing is that I believe this team has the talent to win a first round game as a 7 seed, which is more than our top seeded teams have accomplished in recent years... I guess the issue for me is why is that the case? If you look at the parts, we should be better but the players are just not playing well. DSR was preseason BE player of the year. Josh Smith should be able to score at will. The frosh have been pretty horrid since they turned in some clutch games. I looks at the team and can't help but think they should easily be a Top 20 team, if not higher. The whole is definitely is much less than the sum of the parts this year. I don't know why. And that is FRUSTRATING.
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Just Cos
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Post by Just Cos on Feb 7, 2015 18:49:34 GMT -5
ND is ranked where they are due to a terrible OOC schedule and a weak ACC. Here is there OOC games against teams with <b>winning</b> records:
- UMass - 12-9 rpi 58 (W) - Providence - 17-7 rpi 20 (L) - MSU 15-8 rpi 50 (W) - FSU 12-11 rpi 139 - Purdue 15-8 rpi 72
All other OOC games are against teams with losing records! That is why their RPI is lower than ours. So they have top 25 wins against UNC and Duke. Those are their only top 50 rpi wins besides MSU at 50.
ND is 1-3 top 25 rpi. Georgetown is 2-5. I don't see a big difference of resumes between the two teams and somehow ND gets votes from the AP and Coaches polls. Call it whatever you want but that is why polls man nothing as it relates to the NCAA tournament.
So maybe the better question than "do you think their board is melting down" is "why is this board melting down?" To be fair I haven't gone to their boards so I have no idea how they are reacting to today's loss.
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Just Cos
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Post by Just Cos on Feb 7, 2015 18:54:11 GMT -5
I get that being ranked in the polls matters for a number of reasons but I don't think it is fair to use that argument when defining the strength of this team. If you want to use numbers there are many better statistics. Now if you are saying based on an eye test watching Georgetown play recently and comparing them to other comparable teams then that is another thing.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2015 18:55:41 GMT -5
Because we were picked second in the Big East preseason and have lost 3 of the last 5, including home games vs. Xavier and Providence. We're staring at somewhere between 4th and 6th in the conference with a team that appears to be regressing. It's not just today's game people are upset about, it's the disappointment in what appears to be another underachieving team. I think that is a pretty good summary of the sentiment, although I would just say "an underachieving team," rather than " another underachieving team". The faster people realize this team is around #30-35 in the country and will end up up as a 7 or 8 seed the better. It puts the losses into context and makes our wins more special. The nice thing is that I believe this team has the talent to win a first round game as a 7 seed, which is more than our top seeded teams have accomplished in recent years... I guess the issue for me is why is that the case? If you look at the parts, we should be better but the players are just not playing well. DSR was preseason BE player of the year. Josh Smith should be able to score at will. The frosh have been pretty horrid since they turned in some clutch games. I looks at the team and can't help but think they should easily be a Top 20 team, if not higher. The whole is definitely is much less than the sum of the parts this year. I don't know why. And that is FRUSTRATING. Well first of all this team relies a ton on Freshman which is hard enough when you're Kentucky and even harder when your Freshman arent all in the top 10 of their class. Also, while DSR and Smith are both very talented they are also flawed in some ways and the type of players you kind of have to build around. Smith's weaknesses are well known at this point so I don't think we need to get into them. But I will say they he probably relies on having a bunch of spot up shooters on the perimeter that can space the floor, which is one of the things this team lacks. DSR, for all his attributes, actually isn't a BE POY type to me because that type of player, in recent years, is a guy like Green, Blair, Porter that can score at all three levels and also create to make his teammates better. Honestly, the more I see DSR, I think of him as a very very good complimentary player but he's just not "the guy." I could see Copeland being "the guy" eventually but not quite yet. Anyway, DSR probably needs a different kind of system to be run for him to really maximize his talents and even at that he is a streaky player. Anyway, I think i think this team is a classic less than the sum of its parts group although there is still enough talent in there to win an NCAA game if we get the right matchup and fire on a few cylinders....
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Post by bicentennial on Feb 7, 2015 19:17:28 GMT -5
I realize that I am completely biased. I still believe the fact Josh Smith is doubled and then fouled repeatedly every tine he receives the ball is a major reason for our woes. Perhaps someone should edit a montage of every time josh receives the ball and a fall is not called since every time I see him shoot I see at least one arm or hand on his shooting arm (except 2 late shots today when Nova was up 20.) It is difficult to play and inside out game when collapsing late and fouling is routinely allowed.
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beenaround
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Post by beenaround on Feb 7, 2015 19:45:17 GMT -5
I think that is a pretty good summary of the sentiment, although I would just say "an underachieving team," rather than " another underachieving team". I guess the issue for me is why is that the case? If you look at the parts, we should be better but the players are just not playing well. DSR was preseason BE player of the year. Josh Smith should be able to score at will. The frosh have been pretty horrid since they turned in some clutch games. I looks at the team and can't help but think they should easily be a Top 20 team, if not higher. The whole is definitely is much less than the sum of the parts this year. I don't know why. And that is FRUSTRATING. Well first of all this team relies a ton on Freshman which is hard enough when you're Kentucky and even harder when your Freshman arent all in the top 10 of their class. Also, while DSR and Smith are both very talented they are also flawed in some ways and the type of players you kind of have to build around. Smith's weaknesses are well known at this point so I don't think we need to get into them. But I will say they he probably relies on having a bunch of spot up shooters on the perimeter that can space the floor, which is one of the things this team lacks. DSR, for all his attributes, actually isn't a BE POY type to me because that type of player, in recent years, is a guy like Green, Blair, Porter that can score at all three levels and also create to make his teammates better. Honestly, the more I see DSR, I think of him as a very very good complimentary player but he's just not "the guy." I could see Copeland being "the guy" eventually but not quite yet. Anyway, DSR probably needs a different kind of system to be run for him to really maximize his talents and even at that he is a streaky player. Anyway, I think i think this team is a classic less than the sum of its parts group although there is still enough talent in there to win an NCAA game if we get the right matchup and fire on a few cylinders.... I agree this team will be a 7 or 8 seed and has a "chance" to win a first rd game. The better question is...is this something to be proud of as a Hoya fan? if the answer for you is yes....you are luckier than I. On one other point, I do not agree we are a young team. We start 3 seniors and a jr. In addition to the three frosh who do play a fair amount off the bench, we have a fifth yr senior. Youth and health (two common excuses for underachieving teams) aren't factors here.
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Post by professorhoya on Feb 7, 2015 19:58:48 GMT -5
You aren't going to beat Villanova when they are hitting 50% from 3 and we are hitting 6% from 3.
And you aren't going to win when the freshman are playing like freshman: Tre Campbell was horrible. Getting his pocket picked simply bringing the ball up was unacceptable. Playing major minutes and contributing little. Paul White was horrible. Aaron Bowen was horrible. Throwing passes that gave the opponent easy fast break buckets.
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njhoya78
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Post by njhoya78 on Feb 7, 2015 20:01:44 GMT -5
Yes, we start three seniors and a junior, but none of the seniors are averaging more than thirty minutes a game; only DSR is above that number (33.5). Smith is averaging 22.5 mpg, Trawick 26.1, Hopkins 23.0 and Bowen 15.9 off the bench. Peak, at 26.6 mpg, is behind only DSR in that department; White is at 19.3, Copeland 16.8 and Campbell 13.1. Those numbers are, in my view, a bit more than playing a "fair" amount off of the bench.
I agree that health (unlike last year, when Trawick went down) is not an issue this year. You and I disagree about whether youth is a factor. I tend to subscribe to Al McGuire's thoughts on freshmen: "The best thing about freshmen is that they become sophomores."
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Filo
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Post by Filo on Feb 7, 2015 20:10:03 GMT -5
I think that is a pretty good summary of the sentiment, although I would just say "an underachieving team," rather than " another underachieving team". I guess the issue for me is why is that the case? If you look at the parts, we should be better but the players are just not playing well. DSR was preseason BE player of the year. Josh Smith should be able to score at will. The frosh have been pretty horrid since they turned in some clutch games. I looks at the team and can't help but think they should easily be a Top 20 team, if not higher. The whole is definitely is much less than the sum of the parts this year. I don't know why. And that is FRUSTRATING. Well first of all this team relies a ton on Freshman which is hard enough when you're Kentucky and even harder when your Freshman arent all in the top 10 of their class. Also, while DSR and Smith are both very talented they are also flawed in some ways and the type of players you kind of have to build around. Smith's weaknesses are well known at this point so I don't think we need to get into them. But I will say they he probably relies on having a bunch of spot up shooters on the perimeter that can space the floor, which is one of the things this team lacks. DSR, for all his attributes, actually isn't a BE POY type to me because that type of player, in recent years, is a guy like Green, Blair, Porter that can score at all three levels and also create to make his teammates better. Honestly, the more I see DSR, I think of him as a very very good complimentary player but he's just not "the guy." I could see Copeland being "the guy" eventually but not quite yet. Anyway, DSR probably needs a different kind of system to be run for him to really maximize his talents and even at that he is a streaky player. Anyway, I think i think this team is a classic less than the sum of its parts group although there is still enough talent in there to win an NCAA game if we get the right matchup and fire on a few cylinders.... That's a good response. Was hoping the frosh would be playing less like frosh at this point but what are you gonna do. Like I said, kinda bummed and frustrated. Got my tickets for the BET at the Garden though, so I will still be following and cheering for the team.
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njhoya78
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Post by njhoya78 on Feb 7, 2015 20:27:20 GMT -5
Plus/minus numbers for today's game, as calculated from the play-by-play at guhoyas.com:
Cameron +4, Allen +2, Campbell -1, Hopkins -3, Peak -4, Copeland -5, Bowen -7, White -10, Smith -14, Trawick -18, Smith-Rivera -24.
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Highsmith
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Post by Highsmith on Feb 7, 2015 20:55:02 GMT -5
Just curious. #10 Notre Dame lost by 30 on the road to #4 Duke today. Wonder if their board is as aflame as is ours. Theirs is a blip on the radar.....ours is becoming a pattern. If we had beaten Xavier and Providence at home and then this happened, it would be a completely different story. At least for me.
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Just Cos
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Post by Just Cos on Feb 7, 2015 21:02:03 GMT -5
Not sure I agree that theirs is a blip on the radar. Did you see their game against Pitt just two games ago?
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Highsmith
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Post by Highsmith on Feb 7, 2015 21:07:54 GMT -5
Not sure I agree that theirs is a blip on the radar. Did you see their game against Pitt just two games ago? They lost by 4 on the road in a pretty tough place to play. Compare that with losing by 13 at home to a team that hadn't won a BE road game all year and blowing a 12 or 13 point lead at home.
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