RBHoya
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Post by RBHoya on Aug 11, 2015 19:58:32 GMT -5
? Traynham played 10 games total for UMASS... I encourage people to stop reading scouting reports and actually watch the kid play.. Whole lot of opinions based on ... Yea he washed out pretty quickly, but as a player with a pretty similar profile (including how theyre regarded by scouts and coaches) to Bracey, he ended up at UMass, and while he was there, it seemed like that was the appropriate level. Are we sure that's not the same case for Bracey? I'll buy into the fact that maybe the "recruiting gurus" missed on him. But where are his other offers? Other than Marquette and a mediocre Big 12 team, his offer list is pretty weak. I tend to think that that's probably a better barometer than the rankings. It's not like he's playing in the middle of nowhere, he's playing in Baltimore. Where are the ACC teams? Where are the nearby B1G teams (Maryland, Rutgers, Penn State)? Where is the rest of the Big East? It's hard for me to believe that none of those teams have seen him. It's possible that some thought he was a strong Georgetown lean and didn't invest much in recruiting him, although real high level programs probably wouldn't have let that hold them back... But it seems more likely that they're aware of him but didn't like him enough to press. Now, maybe JTIII sees something in the kid that Jay Wright and Boheim and Turgeon and all these other guys don't see, and that Jerry Meyer and Bossi and these other guys missed too. It's not impossible. III saw something in Jon Wallace that nobody else did, so there's precedent. But it certainly makes me feel a bit hesitant. Other than the Bracey fans on this board, there don't seem to be all that many people that see this guy as a legitimate high major starter down the road. I don't claim to be able to assess that myself--he looks fine in his highlights, but they all do. But most of the other indicators seem kind of iffy, and that combined with the readily apparent height concerns and general scouting reports on his game make me a little skeptical. Of course like always, if he commits here next month I will hope for all the best for him. |
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Hoyas4Ever
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Post by Hoyas4Ever on Aug 11, 2015 20:15:22 GMT -5
In order for the team to take advantage of the skills he has, it will require practice.. It's not as easy as rolling the ball out there and saying make it happen.. The other players are gonna have to know where to be & Bracey will have to learn all of the what if scenarios as well.. I don't see JT3 dedicating much practice time in this.. I still remember Bilas making the comment that G'town practices the fast break less than any team he's watched practice.. Earlier in the spring JT3 told Standig that only 2 players(Campbell & Govan) couldn't play multiple spots, Yesterday he said this years team is as versatile as he's had in awhile, how he can play kids in different spots and not "pigeonhole" kids into spots. My thing is he's finally assembled a team that on paper can play the way the 05-06, 06-07 & 07-08 teams played so why not continue stacking the roster with kids who can integrate into the system easily? You're right in that it is a philosophy issue with me, Bracey is talented but I'm not sold at all on his fit.. Short memories, when CW and Free and Clark were here we did plenty of drive and kick.. That was half our offense. Chris creating off the bounce and kicking it to shooters in Clark Hollis and Free. Even last year when we beat Butler that was the exact play 3 drew up. Brill was to drive if he got stopped kick it out to shooters, he found Ike. No matter what we do on offense we have to practice it's never as easy as rolling the ball out there but let's be honest. Kids grow up playing that way more than they do running the Princeton. It's more natural for them to run Pnr and drive and kick sets than our offense, am I lying? Neither one of us knows what goes on in a Gtown practice but if you have 10 kids that can play multiple spots and a playmaker to get them the ball in their spots, what's not to like? 3 isn't stupid every offense needs facilitators. Which kid on this roster is capable of averaging 4 assists a game? If you have a bunch of kids that can only play in a system your offense will be predictable. At some point you have to be able to go outside of your offense and make a play. Having a guy or 2 like that on your team is perfectly fine. You guys are acting like he's slotted for 35min a game every night for the next 4 years. He's a change of pace guy likely a backup but a high quality one. Exactly! With how roster is now, Tre is the future starting PG and with Mosely and Foster as future Hoyas, Bracey would be a change of pace type of guard for at least his first 2 years. I still don't think Bracey's in play for us anymore. The problem is a lot of you guys are way to hung up on rankings and to be honest, college coaching staffs don't ever look at rankings. They look at talent (skill set, athleticism, and potential), size and program fit (style of play, character, academics and intangibles). Rankings are only for the fans and are very much suggestive. One scout may value scoring ability over versatility or potential and size and quickness over skill set etc. Most of the guys in charge of these rankings don't have the qualifications you would need to really be able to evaluate and rank players overall abilities and potentially on a global scale much less see them all. It's impossible. If Coach Big John Thompson, Coach K, Coach Larry Brown and Coach Bob Knight did these rankings it would at least have credibility but based on their coaching styles they wouldn't even agree. This how little credibility these people who do the rankings have, Ulis at Kentucky was on no scouting service top 100 radar until Kentucky and other high majors got involved with him, all of sudden he is a consensus top 75 kid. Once Kentucky offered he instantly became a top 50 kid. Once he committed to Kentucky he became a consensus top 35 kid and a "5 star" recruit. That type of thing happens every year with players. Our very own Otto Porter is another example of this. Otto wasn't seen because he didn't play grassroots/exposure circuit and his high school was small (1A) and didn't play a national schedule. He was on no ranking service at all until midway through his senior year when offers started coming in from likes of Georgetown and Missouri (when they were a solid program) and other HM. All of a sudden when he commits to Georgetown he gets an invite and became a consensus top 50 kid. Another example is Sasha Killeya-Jones was ranked in the top 130 until he committed to Virginia. Right after he was bumped up to top 75. After he decommitted from Virginia and Kentucky offered him he jumped up to a consensus top 40 and 5 star on certain services. Obviously I'm not saying they do that with everyone but who has offered you, when they offer, and who these prospects commit to plays a huge role in how these kids end up ranked. I guarantee you that if Bracey wakes up tomorrow with 5 blue bloods offering him, he would be ranked in the top 50 overnight. |
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jwp91
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Post by jwp91 on Aug 11, 2015 20:23:47 GMT -5
? Traynham played 10 games total for UMASS... I encourage people to stop reading scouting reports and actually watch the kid play.. Whole lot of opinions based on ... Yea he washed out pretty quickly, but as a player with a pretty similar profile (including how theyre regarded by scouts and coaches) to Bracey, he ended up at UMass, and while he was there, it seemed like that was the appropriate level. Are we sure that's not the same case for Bracey? I'll buy into the fact that maybe the "recruiting gurus" missed on him. But where are his other offers? Other than Marquette and a mediocre Big 12 team, his offer list is pretty weak. I tend to think that that's probably a better barometer than the rankings. It's not like he's playing in the middle of nowhere, he's playing in Baltimore. Where are the ACC teams? Where are the nearby B1G teams (Maryland, Rutgers, Penn State)? Where is the rest of the Big East? It's hard for me to believe that none of those teams have seen him. It's possible that some thought he was a strong Georgetown lean and didn't invest much in recruiting him, although real high level programs probably wouldn't have let that hold them back... But it seems more likely that they're aware of him but didn't like him enough to press. Now, maybe JTIII sees something in the kid that Jay Wright and Boheim and Turgeon and all these other guys don't see, and that Jerry Meyer and Bossi and these other guys missed too. It's not impossible. III saw something in Jon Wallace that nobody else did, so there's precedent. But it certainly makes me feel a bit hesitant. Other than the Bracey fans on this board, there don't seem to be all that many people that see this guy as a legitimate high major starter down the road. I don't claim to be able to assess that myself--he looks fine in his highlights, but they all do. But most of the other indicators seem kind of iffy, and that combined with the readily apparent height concerns and general scouting reports on his game make me a little skeptical. Of course like always, if he commits here next month I will hope for all the best for him. Do you know why economists don't bend over to pick up $100 bills? Because if it was really a $100 bill, someone would have picked it up already. |
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Hoyas4Ever
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Post by Hoyas4Ever on Aug 11, 2015 20:47:09 GMT -5
By the way Bryce Cotton had 1 Division offer and no stars or even listed on any recruiting service coming out of high school because everyone was stuck on his size. He took that offer at Providence and turned into a 1st Team All Big East Player and will probably be on the Jazz roster this year. Rankings mean nothing! There are to many kids out there across the world that can play and kids develop on their own schedule.
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rockhoya
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Post by rockhoya on Aug 11, 2015 22:59:22 GMT -5
By the way Bryce Cotton had 1 Division offer and no stars or even listed on any recruiting service coming out of high school because everyone was stuck on his size. He took that offer at Providence and turned into a 1st Team All Big East Player and will probably be on the Jazz roster this year. Rankings mean nothing! There are to many kids out there across the world that can play and kids develop on their own schedule. Amen. Not only that, but looking at past examples for an accurate barometer to predict a "similar" athlete's trajectory is just silly, history doesn't repeat itself in sports, every athlete has different dna |
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RBHoya
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Post by RBHoya on Aug 12, 2015 6:51:39 GMT -5
My last post in this thread until something actually happens...
There are a number of guards in the 5'9-5'10 range who have had great success at the high major level, and a handful have even done alright in the NBA. But there are a lot more that have had unremarkable careers on mid major teams. The 5'9-5'10 guys who have been stars for good high major teams are the exception.
There are a lot of guys who have been outside of the Top 100 or the Top 150 and who have fantastic careers. Every year there are guys who are off the radar of the "gurus" who break out, sometimes even going All-America or becoming lottery picks. However, the majority of the top players were at least in the Top 150 prospects out of high school. The guys who are seen by the experts but completely misevaluated are the exceptions.
And every year there are guys who are missed by all or most of the powerhouse programs and who go on to have stellar careers and earn all kinds of accolades and get drafted to the NBA. But, more often than not, unless a kid is really playing somewhere obscure (ie. not playing on the AAU circuit) if he's an elite talent he'll usually rack up a number of offers. The guys who are seen by the power conferences but not offered and then go on to be stars are the exceptions.
There are lots of exceptions for each case and we can go back and forth on them all day. In the end it doesn't matter because none of those guys is Daquan Bracey. I completely agree with rockhoya above, each player is a unique person unto themselves and past examples, good and bad, don't mean all that much. My only point is, on the surface the odds seem to be against a 5'10, unranked guard with mostly mid major and low high major offers turning into a high level, all Big East type of player. I DO NOT CONTEST that there are a great number of counterexamples. But I think those are exceptions, not the rule. Maybe Bracey will be an exception some day too--nobody knows for now. But I certainly don't think it's a given, and with Mosely already on board and figuring to spend some time at the point, why not wait it out to see if we can land someone who is more of a sure thing? With Brown and Jones scheduled to visit next month, I know that if I were in the driver's seat I would want to hold off on Bracey until those guys make a decision. If they decide to go elsewhere, then Bracey starts to ascend to the top of the list and that's fine. In other words, I don't see him as a "Plan A" recruit. Maybe a "Plan C" or something. And yea, if you hold off on Bracey until the other two decide, you risk alienating him and losing him altogether. That's a chance I'd be willing to take. There are diminutive guards who are athletic and who can get to the basket every year, it's not exactly the rarest skillset in the world, even if he is really good at it. And even if we lost all 3 of Brown, Jones and Bracey, we're still OK with Mosely already coming in. That's the luxury we have now with Jagan's commitment--we can afford to go hard after the elite guys without being too concerned that we'll be screwed if they go elsewhere.
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Aug 12, 2015 7:48:43 GMT -5
I am in need of Ginkoba no doubt cause all I remember is screaming about Vaughn holding the ball too long at the top of the key.. I get what you're saying Yaboy and I have no doubt what you're saying is true.. However with that line-up I can see JT3 going that route, the strength of the team was in it's back-court.. Front court kids like Vaughn or Sims or Benimon couldn't be a focal point.. That won't be the case next season even if Copeland breaks out and decides to go pro, next season's team will be built to play like 3's early teams which didn't run a lot of drive/kick stuff.. Not that I remember anyways.. It's all good though, if Bracey were to come to G'town I'll root like crazy for him.. Just like you'll do for Powell if he comes.. lol.. Chris avg'd 5.3 assts that season.. I don't have to worry about that last part so we're good! Haha I went back and looked at assist totals for players under JT3, it was pretty interesting.. On his best teams in 05-06, 06-07 & 07-08 not one player averaged more than 3.5 assists per game.. 05-06 was his best passing team, it had 5 players between 1.8 to 3.3.. 06-07 had Green, Wallace & Sapp all around 3.3.. I believe the team he has now is built to play like the teams above due to it's skilled bigs and combo wings/guards for the next couple of seasons at least.. Not saying that Bracey will disrupt the team, I'm just saying I'd rather have a shooter/cg be the next recruit for the team.. CW was the only kid to break 4 for 2 seasons in their careers under JT3 and his 5.3 in his Sr. year came on a team that was very limited in the front court.. |
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Aug 12, 2015 9:22:56 GMT -5
I think a lot of folks make good points about Bracey. For me, it comes down to how effective a penetrator and creator he is. We really haven't had a strong penetrator who can finish and distribute since Chris Wright, and even he wasn't elite. DSR is better than most give him credit for on this board, but he is more opportunistic than a guy who can do it at will. Perhaps Peak will get there; either way, both will/may be gone for most of Bracey's career.
It's a skillset this team could use. But he needs to at least be at the level of Chris Wright and hopefully better in terms of that skill for him to make a big impact on that skill alone.
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rockhoya
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Post by rockhoya on Aug 12, 2015 9:40:14 GMT -5
I think a lot of folks make good points about Bracey. For me, it comes down to how effective a penetrator and creator he is. We really haven't had a strong penetrator who can finish and distribute since Chris Wright, and even he wasn't elite. DSR is better than most give him credit for on this board, but he is more opportunistic than a guy who can do it at will. Perhaps Peak will get there; either way, both will/may be gone for most of Bracey's career. It's a skillset this team could use. But he needs to at least be at the level of Chris Wright and hopefully better in terms of that skill for him to make a big impact on that skill alone. Well said. I'd add that Jason was a bit underrated in this area as well but Bracey not only relies on quickness, but he is also shifty and uses change of pace and misdirection to get free. He's not simply out matching his opponents athletically, but he's also just leaving them in the dust with his savvy. Maybe it translates, maybe it doesn't, but some of his ability is definitely uncanny, even among sub-6 ft guards I'd also add that Chris was good at driving and kicking despite his physical profile. Yes he was a good athlete, but not your ideal athlete for being a drive and kick player. I.e. He did pretty well despite not having the ideal tools for that function. Bracey is a more natural fit for the distributor role, but Chris was very adept at knowing where others were via where they should've been in offensive sets, he made up for it by using his smarts. Best baseline drive and kick player I've seen in a while. |
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Post by Ranch Dressing on Aug 12, 2015 10:17:27 GMT -5
By the way Bryce Cotton had 1 Division offer and no stars or even listed on any recruiting service coming out of high school because everyone was stuck on his size. He took that offer at Providence and turned into a 1st Team All Big East Player and will probably be on the Jazz roster this year. Rankings mean nothing! There are to many kids out there across the world that can play and kids develop on their own schedule. White Bryce Cotton was a very good small guard at Providence, he is not a perfect comp for Bracey. Cotton is 3 inches taller. His listed height is 6'1" espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/2531054/bryce-cottonThere are precious few examples of successful 5'10" Big East PGs over the past decade+. The only one offered up so far was Andre Barrett, which is a great comp. |
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rockhoya
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Post by rockhoya on Aug 12, 2015 10:24:02 GMT -5
By the way Bryce Cotton had 1 Division offer and no stars or even listed on any recruiting service coming out of high school because everyone was stuck on his size. He took that offer at Providence and turned into a 1st Team All Big East Player and will probably be on the Jazz roster this year. Rankings mean nothing! There are to many kids out there across the world that can play and kids develop on their own schedule. White Bryce Cotton was a very good small guard at Providence, he is not a perfect comp for Bracey. Cotton is 3 inches taller. His listed height is 6'1" espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/2531054/bryce-cottonThere are precious few examples of successful 5'10" Big East PGs over the past decade+. The only one offered up so far was Andre Barrett, which is a great comp. I'm confused, why are you restricting it to the Big East? Didn't we just lose to a 5'9" starting guard in the last game we played? |
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Aug 12, 2015 10:43:08 GMT -5
White Bryce Cotton was a very good small guard at Providence, he is not a perfect comp for Bracey. Cotton is 3 inches taller. His listed height is 6'1" espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/2531054/bryce-cottonThere are precious few examples of successful 5'10" Big East PGs over the past decade+. The only one offered up so far was Andre Barrett, which is a great comp. I'm confused, why are you restricting it to the Big East? Didn't we just lose to a 5'9" starting guard in the last game we played? Taylor shot 43.9 from 3 last season in over 150 attempts.. His career # is 42% This discussion wouldn't be happening if Bracey shot it this well.. |
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rockhoya
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Post by rockhoya on Aug 12, 2015 10:46:04 GMT -5
I'm confused, why are you restricting it to the Big East? Didn't we just lose to a 5'9" starting guard in the last game we played? Taylor shot 43.9 from 3 last season in over 150 attempts.. His career # is 42% This discussion wouldn't be happening if Bracey shot it this well.. I bet it would still be happening.... |
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Post by johnnysnowplow on Aug 12, 2015 10:53:11 GMT -5
Isaiah Thomas?
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rockhoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
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Post by rockhoya on Aug 12, 2015 10:58:53 GMT -5
He apparently doesn't count either |
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dense
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Post by dense on Aug 12, 2015 11:05:43 GMT -5
People get hung up on heights too much. They mean something but 6'4 to 6'2 isn't some huge detriment in terms of matching up defensively. In terms of Bracey, I think people are not seeing that when, if he comes here, he probably is a back up for 2 Years unless he is a special player. I like him in terms of having a lead guard who does things different than anyone we have. I would love to have someone who can get in to the lane and totally change how a team guards us or even worries about defending in a transition game. I have only seen him play once in person. I like what I saw. I don't think he comes in and dominates though and I also think if some other people like Woods or Bruce Brown decide to come here. He might be tabled. I think we are taking 3 or 4 in 2016. I think one will be a big and the 4th will be someone who is talented at any position. it could very well be possible that if things work out well that Mosley took his spot already.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2015 11:22:36 GMT -5
I'm confused, why are you restricting it to the Big East? Didn't we just lose to a 5'9" starting guard in the last game we played? Taylor shot 43.9 from 3 last season in over 150 attempts.. His career # is 42% This discussion wouldn't be happening if Bracey shot it this well.. Oh vey... The discussion is going in circles. Once one of your arguments against gets proven false you guys morph to another argument. Well what I meant was etc... If you guys don't like the kid leave the thread alone. It's at 18 pages and most of it's BS. I don't like Powell, I avoid his thread to avoid situations like this. |
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blueandgray
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Post by blueandgray on Aug 12, 2015 11:27:52 GMT -5
Every other point guard in the nba the U of Washington has put out. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2015 12:01:33 GMT -5
By the way Bryce Cotton had 1 Division offer and no stars or even listed on any recruiting service coming out of high school because everyone was stuck on his size. He took that offer at Providence and turned into a 1st Team All Big East Player and will probably be on the Jazz roster this year. Rankings mean nothing! There are to many kids out there across the world that can play and kids develop on their own schedule. White Bryce Cotton was a very good small guard at Providence, he is not a perfect comp for Bracey. Cotton is 3 inches taller. His listed height is 6'1" espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/2531054/bryce-cottonThere are precious few examples of successful 5'10" Big East PGs over the past decade+. The only one offered up so far was Andre Barrett, which is a great comp. Why are you giving his "listed at" height like it's fact when he was measured officially at the NBA combine at 5'11.. I mean it's getting absurd at this point He has the same measurables and even B&G said earlier that's what the staff sees in him... BTW he shot 25% from 3 as a Freshman so his stroke developed in College |
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Post by daymondmyles on Aug 12, 2015 12:17:41 GMT -5
Speedy Claxton. 5'9. Shot 32% career from 3 (first 2 years was at 15 and 18%) in college. Not highly recruited. Went to Hofstra for crying out loud. Would you take him?
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