Another NCAA Pratfall: The Post-Game Thread

[Big Dog]

Pitino just had very interesting post game comments about how teams get tight come tournament time so you have to take more chances and risks. Definitely isnt our philosophy.

[Big Dog]

Mar 23, 2013 16:08:57 GMT -5 guru said:

Mar 23, 2013 15:58:10 GMT -5 johnnysnowplow said:

That just makes me feel worse...

Can't help but be jealous right now of Michigan St. and their 11 Sweet 16s in 16 appearances under Tom Izzo.

JT3 is the anti-Izzo. Overall, he's one of the worst tournament coaches of all time. The resume speaks for itself. And I really like the guy. Just hope he pulls it together in the postseason soon.

His NCAA tournament record is 8-7.

[bmartin]

Regarding pass first point guards we have faced

2013 Season Assist Rate Leaders:
2 DJ Cooper, Ohio
4 Vincent Council, Providence
5 Brett Comer, FGCU
7 Anthony Collins, USF
10 Michael Carter-Williams, SU

[Nevada Hoya]

I just realized that we are caught in a rerun of Ground Hog Day.

[hoyatables]

Mar 23, 2013 19:32:39 GMT -5 Nevada Hoya said:

I just realized that we are caught in a rerun of Ground Hog Day.

This.

And we lost in 97 to UNC Charlotte in an 8-9 matchup, I think.

[unclebeets]

Mar 23, 2013 18:10:59 GMT -5 MCIGuy said:

Mar 23, 2013 16:20:03 GMT -5 unclebeets said:

There are a few realities everyone needs to accept.

JTIII is not under the same pressure to win (or to recruit to win) as coaches at other high-profile programs. He never would have put GW in mothballs if it were otherwise. And this is nothing new -- Pops's post-season record had plenty of first weekend outs after 1985. The administration has a different set of priorities, simple as that.

First of all the team wasn't that far removed from a championship and three Final Fours after '85. Why would the administration put any pressure on Big John after such success? His son is not in the same boat although I do realize that III isn't under any pressure from the school either. If this was Kentucky he would be gone by now.

Secondly lets clarify JT's run after 1985. I'm not sure what happened in '86 but in '87 the team made it to the Elite Eight.

In '88 the team made it to the round of 32 before bowing out I believe to a team that was a superior seed.

In '89 the Hoyas were a #1 seed and made it "only" to the Elite Eight.

In 1990 the team was a #2 or possibly a #3 seed but lost to Xavier in the second round. That was probably the biggest disappointing showing of a Big John team that I can think of.

In '91 that team was a mess with Mutombo, a recovering Zo (still not at full strength) and a cast of nobodies. I think it was a 7 or 8 seed but many thought it would lose to Vanderbilt in the first round. It won that game but lost in the second round, as it should have, to a superior UNLV team that was trying to repeat as champions.

In '92 Deke was gone, Zo was healthy and the team was still filled with a bunch of nobodies. The Hoyas made it to the second round and lost to what I think was the higher seeded team which was Florida State. No upset there.

The Hoyas missed the tourney in 93.

In '94 Othella, Don Reid and George Butler helped Georgetown beat the superior seed, Illinois, in the first round but lost to eventual champion Arkansas in the second round.

In '95 Iverson and the boys made it to the Sweet Sixteen but lost to the superior seed UNC.

In '96 the 32 seeded Hoyas made it to the Elite Eight where they were defeated by the #1 seed UMass.

In 1997 the Victor Page-led Hoyas made it to the tourney as probably a five to eight seed and lost in the first round. The first first round loss of JT's Hoyas in an eternity, perhaps ever.

And that was the last JT team to make the tourney I think.

As you can see only one of those teams had a first round loss in the tournament (came when JT was half-way checked out as coach anyway). Only twice did the Hoyas lose to an inferior seed and in both times this occurred in the Elite Eight (should be pointed out that one of the opponents was #2 seed Duke whom the Hoyas lost to in the Elite Eight of 1989). Perhaps the only time JT's teams lost to a double digit seed opponent was possibly in 1997 (unless that team was a # 9 seed instead). JT's teams did not lose five straight games to double digit seeds. So let's not act as if III's showings the past five trips compare to what his dad did after 1985.

I think the '86 team lost to Scott Skiles and Michigan State in the second round.

Thanks for taking the trouble to lay it out, but please read more carefully -- I said "first weekend", not "first round." You're splitting hairs if you think there is any meaningful difference between losing in the first and second rounds, especially when the program has a national title and three final fours under its belt.

If "first weekend" is the benchmark, you've made my point -- in the 13 seasons since his last final four, Pops made it out of the first weekend only four times (and two of those would not have happened if Ann Iverson hadn't called him).

It is true that he did not lose to double-digit seeds five years in a row, but I might ask why his teams were seeded so low in the first place -- he had some NBA talent on those rosters, as you point out (and why was a guy with his resume fielding "a cast of nobodies" anyway?).

Look, I like JTII a lot, but, seeding aside, do you think Kentucky would have tolerated his post-85 track record (ask Tubby Smith)? And it's not just Kentucky -- even Rollie was falling out of favor with Nova just a few years after his little miracle (although his personality was an issue as well).

It all adds up to the same thing -- GU is satisfied with having a clean, competitive program. In that regard, the Thompsons have kept their end of the bargain. End of story.

[johnnysnowplow]

Did anyone else just hear the little story they were talking about in the Butler-Marquette game just now? Stevens has a kid on his staff whose sole job is to analyze advanced stats and he and Stevens figure out how to best incorporate their conclusions into their gameplans. Stevens will even change his starting lineup and player rotations based on this analysis.

Making adjustments based on your opponent - what a novel idea...

[Madgesdiq]

Mar 23, 2013 16:08:57 GMT -5 guru said:

Mar 23, 2013 15:58:10 GMT -5 johnnysnowplow said:

That just makes me feel worse...

Can't help but be jealous right now of Michigan St. and their 11 Sweet 16s in 16 appearances under Tom Izzo.

JT3 is the anti-Izzo. Overall, he's one of the worst tournament coaches of all time. The resume speaks for itself. And I really like the guy. Just hope he pulls it together in the postseason soon.

You are the deleted, who never lets facts get in the way of his deleted opinion. Tell me about your "boy" (and I mean that deleted) Mike Brey's Big East and NCAA Tourney record.

Isn't any coach who hasn't been to the NCAA Final Four a "worse" tournament coach than JT3, and doesn't that number represent over 95%+ of current NCAA Division 1 coaches.

Deleted.


Just a suggestion: step back from the name calling ledge.

[Madgesdiq]

Mar 23, 2013 20:01:17 GMT -5 Madgesdiq said:

Mar 23, 2013 16:08:57 GMT -5 guru said:

JT3 is the anti-Izzo. Overall, he's one of the worst tournament coaches of all time. The resume speaks for itself. And I really like the guy. Just hope he pulls it together in the postseason soon.

deleted

I can repost your fawning Mike Brey posts if you want.

deleted.

[unclebeets]

deleted

[DanMcQ]

MOD NOTE: Discuss the game, not other posters. Posts will be deleted if you cannot control yourselves.

[Big O]

Mar 23, 2013 20:03:08 GMT -5 Madgesdiq said:

Mar 23, 2013 20:01:17 GMT -5 Madgesdiq said:

deleted

I can repost your fawning Mike Brey posts if you want.

deleted.

Don't let facts get in the way of your vitriol. His track record in the tournament with non-Esherick recruits speaks for itself.

[unclebeets]

Mar 23, 2013 20:10:32 GMT -5 DanMcQ said:

MOD NOTE: Discuss the game, not other posters. Posts will be deleted if you cannot control yourselves.

Nuts -- I was trying to lighten the mood, not insult him. But I take your point.

Just start a thread called "Everything Sucks" and let everyone go toxic for an hour or two. Problem solved.

Still not as bad as the Esh era -- those were keepers.

Yahoo reporting that Howland is out at UCLA.

Sorry - your post got it as collateral damage in removing the quoted deleted stuff. No harm meant.

[3xhoya]

I have no idea what has been said in this thread, honestly I don't know if I can bear reading it. Today was a really rough day. Anyway here is an email I sent to some of my friends I thought I would share:

I apologize for this email before you even read it. I will warn you it is purely stream of consciousness and filled with grammar/spelling errors. It is hard to type the cliff notes to a manifesto on an iPhone while sitting in the Shock Trauma Unit. Anyway here it goes:

I don't know if it is because I am currently stuck in the damn hospital and the sun is out, or because I am only on day 6/12 of work in a row, but I can't get this loss out of my head. It was rough watching that arena go crazy around me as I sat motionless with each ridiculous dunk.

We started off slow as usual. I expected this as our best lineup does not even get in the game until 5 minutes in (DSR in for Hop).

We started to click a little better and all of a sudden were up 18-11 (I think). We then got two stops and could not score despite getting offensive rebounds and we were only 1-5 on FTs at this point. To make matters worse this is when Markel picked up his second foul. For some inexplicable reason JT3 took Otto out along with Markel and we had a lineup of Hopkins, Nate, Bowen, DSR, Jabril. Before I knew it the score was 18-17.

This sequence was the key to the game. We had the opportunity to step on their throats and go up big. We played it safe and tentative and this is why I think we are losing these games. We are too cerebral. The teams we play in these first round games are going to play all out. We come out trying to 'play our stuff' and do not match that intensity. We then get frazzled with the frenzied game and we have seen the result.

We need to come out looking to destroy the team we are playing. They should not be happy with a win against FGCU. They should be looking to win by 30+. This is what I want to see going forward. We had the opportunity to do this but squandered it.

I know some of you will disagree with this but JT3 is the right coach for our university. He represents the school well and demands this of his players too. I do not like a clown like boeheim who looks the other way when his players fail a class or literally beat women repeatedly.

As we demand of the players JT3 needs to improve with each season also. He is accountable. He needs to figure this out, especially with the 'New' Big East. I think he can, but he has to be willing to seek and accept advice.

This was awful. It is not the end of the program but we need to work harder than ever beginning now. The players need to improve, the coaches need to improve. We need to raise money for the damn athletic center JT3 had been asking for for the past 5 years. This will help with recruiting.

We always have a fun season, next year I expect that fun to continue deep into March and think with some hard work JT3 can make if happen.

Hoya Saxa!

[MCIGuy]

Mar 23, 2013 19:41:29 GMT -5 unclebeets said:

Thanks for taking the trouble to lay it out, but please read more carefully -- I said "first weekend", not "first round." You're splitting hairs if you think there is any meaningful difference between losing in the first and second rounds, especially when the program has a national title and three final fours under its belt.

I knew exactly what you wrote. The point I was making that you may have missed was that III has been saddled with multiple first round exits while his father was saddled with only one. Also Big John wasn't exiting early from the tourney typically when his team was the superior seed, with III it is just the opposite. When Big John's teams departed before the second weekned it was typically expected based on their seeding, the same cannot be said of III. If you don't think there's a meaningful difference between the two bodies of work that we are comparing then you have a different definition of the word "meaningful".

And I'll add again that after '85 Big John's team made it to the Sweet Sixteen four times with three of those trips ending in the Final Eight. There wasn't some streak of five straight trips without moving on to the second weekend when it came to Big John.

[richfame]

Mar 23, 2013 13:38:20 GMT -5 DanMcQ said:

Mar 23, 2013 13:34:22 GMT -5 HarbinHoya said:

I guess I meant in terms of benching that there are a lot of rumours (I agree unsubstantiated) that the reason Greg was out is that he missed a problem of god final, which he then made up and that Georgetown (the university) had cleared him to play a while ago, not to mention this wasn't an NCAA sanction so he could have been in, but that JT3 decided to make an example of him and leave him out for the rest of the season. I am not at all disputing taking academics seriously or punishing a player for an extended period of time, it is one of the reasons I respect III, but at the same time, why for the whole rest of the season? We felt the effects this season and I'm definitely worried that Greg's time at Georgetown will be done now. Wish we could have gotten some more insight on what exactly happened, but I guess I just feel like JT3 kind of sandbagged Whitt.

This kind of post is exactly why we don't allow rumor posts here. You have not one iota of proof for any of this and in the process smear both the coach and player with assertions that cannot be verified.

This does indeed sound crazy but....Do you have any proof that it is NOT real? Just asking....

MOD NOTE: Doesn't matter. We don't allow "my cousin's friend texted my cousin who told me player X was told this by Coach Y" here.

[detmut]

Mar 23, 2013 19:41:29 GMT -5 unclebeets said:

Mar 23, 2013 18:10:59 GMT -5 MCIGuy said:

First of all the team wasn't that far removed from a championship and three Final Fours after '85. Why would the administration put any pressure on Big John after such success? His son is not in the same boat although I do realize that III isn't under any pressure from the school either. If this was Kentucky he would be gone by now.

Secondly lets clarify JT's run after 1985. I'm not sure what happened in '86 but in '87 the team made it to the Elite Eight.

In '88 the team made it to the round of 32 before bowing out I believe to a team that was a superior seed.

In '89 the Hoyas were a #1 seed and made it "only" to the Elite Eight.

In 1990 the team was a #2 or possibly a #3 seed but lost to Xavier in the second round. That was probably the biggest disappointing showing of a Big John team that I can think of.

In '91 that team was a mess with Mutombo, a recovering Zo (still not at full strength) and a cast of nobodies. I think it was a 7 or 8 seed but many thought it would lose to Vanderbilt in the first round. It won that game but lost in the second round, as it should have, to a superior UNLV team that was trying to repeat as champions.

In '92 Deke was gone, Zo was healthy and the team was still filled with a bunch of nobodies. The Hoyas made it to the second round and lost to what I think was the higher seeded team which was Florida State. No upset there.

The Hoyas missed the tourney in 93.

In '94 Othella, Don Reid and George Butler helped Georgetown beat the superior seed, Illinois, in the first round but lost to eventual champion Arkansas in the second round.

In '95 Iverson and the boys made it to the Sweet Sixteen but lost to the superior seed UNC.

In '96 the 32 seeded Hoyas made it to the Elite Eight where they were defeated by the #1 seed UMass.

In 1997 the Victor Page-led Hoyas made it to the tourney as probably a five to eight seed and lost in the first round. The first first round loss of JT's Hoyas in an eternity, perhaps ever.

And that was the last JT team to make the tourney I think.

As you can see only one of those teams had a first round loss in the tournament (came when JT was half-way checked out as coach anyway). Only twice did the Hoyas lose to an inferior seed and in both times this occurred in the Elite Eight (should be pointed out that one of the opponents was #2 seed Duke whom the Hoyas lost to in the Elite Eight of 1989). Perhaps the only time JT's teams lost to a double digit seed opponent was possibly in 1997 (unless that team was a # 9 seed instead). JT's teams did not lose five straight games to double digit seeds. So let's not act as if III's showings the past five trips compare to what his dad did after 1985.

I think the '86 team lost to Scott Skiles and Michigan State in the second round.

Thanks for taking the trouble to lay it out, but please read more carefully -- I said "first weekend", not "first round." You're splitting hairs if you think there is any meaningful difference between losing in the first and second rounds, especially when the program has a national title and three final fours under its belt.

If "first weekend" is the benchmark, you've made my point -- in the 13 seasons since his last final four, Pops made it out of the first weekend only four times (and two of those would not have happened if Ann Iverson hadn't called him).

It is true that he did not lose to double-digit seeds five years in a row, but I might ask why his teams were seeded so low in the first place -- he had some NBA talent on those rosters, as you point out (and why was a guy with his resume fielding "a cast of nobodies" anyway?).

Look, I like JTII a lot, but, seeding aside, do you think Kentucky would have tolerated his post-85 track record (ask Tubby Smith)? And it's not just Kentucky -- even Rollie was falling out of favor with Nova just a few years after his little miracle (although his personality was an issue as well).

It all adds up to the same thing -- GU is satisfied with having a clean, competitive program. In that regard, the Thompsons have kept their end of the bargain. End of story.

just to be clear: jt, jr. saved iverson's ass, not the other way around

[richfame]

Mar 23, 2013 17:08:55 GMT -5 sleepy said:

Mar 23, 2013 17:04:26 GMT -5 hoyas1995 said:

Well let me ask you guys this: If JT3 is really the problem, do you realize how difficult it will be for him to leave his current post with his father essentially still the face of this school and basketball program?

III leaving would be the worst possible outcome for Georgetown basketball. The mere suggestion of it is absurd and ridiculous. The guy is not perfect but he is very, very good at what he does.

I dont believe that at all. Your telling me there are Zero coaches on this planet can can come in here and recruit and continue an already successful program? Really?

Do I want to go down this road today absolutely not. Just because we had an un popular ESH sandwiched in between two Thompsons do you think its Thompson or bust for ever? If so I guess they will close down basketball operations when JT3 retires...

[HoyaLawya]

Going back to 1985 and the expansion to 64 teams, our seedings and results in NCAAT:

2013 First Round #2 Georgetown 68 v #15 FGCU 78
2012 Second Round #3 Georgetown 63 v #11 NC State 66
2011 First Round #6 Georgetown 56 v #11 VCU 74
2010 First Round #3 Georgetown 83 v #14 Ohio 97
2008 Second Round # 2 Georgetown 70 v #10 Davidson 74
2007 Final Four #2 Georgetown 60 v #1 Ohio State 67
2006 Sweet 16 #7 Georgetown 53 v #3 Florida 57
2001 Sweet 16 #10 Georgetown 66 v #3 Maryland 76
1997 First Round #10 Georgetown 67 v #7 Charlotte 79
1996 Elite Eight #2 Georgetown 62 v #1 Massachusetts 86
1995 Sweet 16 #6 Georgetown 64 v #2 North Carolina 74
1994 Second Round #9 Georgetown 73 v #1 Arkansas 85
1992 Second Round #6 Georgetown 68 v #3 Florida State 78
1991 Second Round #8 Georgetown 54 v #1 UNLV 62
1990 Second Round #3 Georgetown 71 v #6 Xavier 74
1989 Elite Eight #1 Georgetown 77 v #2 Duke 85
1988 Second Round #8 Georgetown 53 v #1 Temple 74
1987 Elite Eight #1 Georgetown 73 v #6 Providence 88
1986 Second Round #4 Georgetown 68 v #5 Michigan State 80
1985 National Championship #1 Georgetown 64 v #8 Villanova 66

[vv83]

One of the primary criticisms of JTIII is that his own calm demeanor carries over to the team in a way that leaves them lacking in emotion/intensity. Especially in the tournament. But as I watch Butler play - Stevens is every bit as calm and composed as JTIII on the sideline. But his teams always play with the kind of clear, visible intensity that we all wish the Hoyas played with more consistently. I don't have any idea what this means for Thompson, other than that it is possible to be an inherently calm guy on the sidelines and still lead your team in a way that produces intensity and aggression on the court. Whether Thompson can develop the ability to do this more consistently - not so far, but you have to hope for the future!

Also in watching games today, I have been much more tuned into these issues of intensity, tempo, and aggression. I guess it is easy for us to rationalize the way the hoyas play, especially since they have won a lot of games under JTIII - but we really do play with less consistent aggression than just about any other good team. Even teams like Butler, which do not run up and down the court much, are looking to create direct scoring opportunities throughout every offensive possession.

If there is one thing that I would love to see change for the future, this is it. Be aggressive, every second of every game, on both ends of the court. If someone is not playing aggressively - they sit until they get the message. This is true for any sport, but particularly for a sport played by a bunch of kids. Being the aggressor can cover for a lot of mistakes, and for a lot of shortcomings in talent.

Especially in NCAA tournament games, we are virtually never the aggressor. When we finally went into full aggression mode last night, we cut a 19 point lead to 4 points. It's largely a question of JTIII being willing to give up control - if you play aggressively, there are going to be more mistakes. But I'll take a mistake of aggression over the mistakes we have made in these bad losses - mistakes of passivity. These passive mistakes just make you feel sick. If you lose because you were too aggressive - at least you went down fighting, you forced the other team to punch you back.

I get where JTIII is coming from - smart, accomplished people often achieve their success by being controlled and ultra thoughtful. But this can tip over into believing that you can control things you really cannot control if you are just deliberate, thoughtful, and careful enough. This can work sometimes, but in the end someone just as smart as you who knows how to manage the risks of aggression (and who has the guts to take these risks) is going to come along and beat you. Especially when that opponent has nothing to lose (e.g. double digit seed) - it is a lot easier to take the risk of being aggressive when you have nothing to lose.

That is all probably WAY too much pop psychology. But I really think that a lot of the answer to moving this program to the next level lies in this question of JTIII developing his risk tolerance, manifested through a much more consistently aggressive playing style for the team