Another NCAA Pratfall: The Post-Game Thread

[hoyas1995]

Mar 23, 2013 17:27:32 GMT -5 skyhoya said:

JTIII needs to change a few things. He needs to bring in some new blood on the coaching staff with some new ideas. He also needs a real big man coach.

I never considered Othella a "big man". More of a PF.

Now's the time to hire Ewing. He could really mentor Josh Smith. Ewing isnt doing anything these days except packing on the pounds

[skyhoya]

If Otto comes out and Whit doesn't get back, we won't be dancing next year.

[whatmaroon]

Mar 23, 2013 16:06:53 GMT -5 gujake said:

Mar 23, 2013 14:46:36 GMT -5 MCIGuy said:

Not only is it brilliant but it makes me wonder why our coaches don't try throwing in one or two new wrinkles to catch the opposing team off guard. One of my least favorite quotes from III is when he says we (meaning the Hoyas) don't game plan for different teams, instead we adjust to the defense and take what the defense gives us. That drives me nuts because it suggests you allow another team to dictate how the game is to be played. I like it better when it is the Hoyas who are trying to dictate a tone. Even more than that I hate that quote because it also indicates that III isn't trying to come up with an actual game plan with some twists thrown in. That's probably not the case but that is what those words suggest to me at least.

Yeah, I think the scouting/game planning thing could have some merit. The obvious counter is - well, why isn't it a problem before the NCAAs?

As mentioned by others, maybe we get away with poor game planning during the Big East because we're already familiar with the teams that we're playing. It would be pretty hard to mess that up. And maybe we get away with it in the pre-season because teams don't care very much about game planning against us in the pre-season. They're more concerned with learning their own sets.

So in the NCAAs our opponents are specifically game planning for us and we're not familiar with them and we don't specifically game plan for them. We just keep running our stuff and we don't adjust.

Seems plausible to me. That and the energy/intensity thing are the only two arguments that make sense to me.

This is pretty much where I'm at. Obviously our teams that have lost have all been flawed in one or more ways, but our flaws this year weren't the same as our flaws in 2012 and especially not in 2010.

[jwp91]

JT3 is such a net positive to Georgetown even after 5 early exits that to consider him as anything other than the basketball coach at Georgetown is ridiculous.

We are freaking blessed to have this guy as the face of our university. Every single member of the team and staff has some fault. We played tight and without energy. 2 of our 3 primary scorers had bad nights. We lost control of the tempo of the game. We played lousy defense...but we closed it to within 4.

The good news is that JT3 is so conscientious that he will do everything in his power to get this corrected....but you know what, the guys isn't perfect. And none of us are either.

[sleepy21]

I think everyone is grasping including myself. It makes no sense for a team that consistently performs well throughout an entire season in arguably the toughest conference earning high NCAA seeds, only to get completely outplayed by schools most folks honestly did not know existed in D1 ball.

[NCHoya]

Mar 23, 2013 17:27:27 GMT -5 sleepy said:

Mar 23, 2013 17:11:52 GMT -5 gujake said:

I am definitely grasping at straws, because as you have correctly pointed out several times, there doesn't seem to be any constant to the makeup of our team or to the makeup of our opponents in these games. It doesn't make sense, and yet we keep losing, often by big margins.

I could use the same types of arguments that you use above to argue against your idea that it is mostly mental. I find it hard to believe that we can be mentally prepared for huge games like the Cuse games but not for an NCAA game. This group in particular has shown almost no signs of choking. Nobody on the current roster was there for the Ohio game and only Lubick/Starks were there for VCU. The idea that we just choke is hard to believe too, and yet here we are again. It is very perplexing.

I think we have shown quite a few signs of choking this season, actually. On a game by game basis we were pretty poor at holding onto big leads. The second we would get up by 10 or so we'd play tight and like we didn't want to lose and it would get close again. To me that's mental. People blamed it on the system and "stall ball", but I always believed it to be the players tightening up and playing scared. I also noticed a small pattern of us playing poorly/tight on offense the second we felt expectation/media attention. We followed up our great performance against Indian with a month of scared offense. The second the pressure is off and we get blown out by Pitt, we come out as a much more aggressive team and stop playing scared/tight offensively. Then we get too dependent on Otto and everyone but Markel and DSR play scared/tight offensively and we get what we got. Now, don't I don't really believe that what I just wrote really means anything. I just think don't think there were no signs of us choking. I think a more fair assessment was that we definitely played better when we thought our backs were against the wall and no one believed in us than we did when we had expectations.

Either way I agree there is no evidence that it is mostly mental. I'm just going with that because you can rule out pretty much every other option. There is no way to know how we are going into these games mentally. Being the superstitious person I am I think being in the same bracket as Kansas the last 5 tournaments(really, what are the odds?) has as much to do with it as anything else, but I realize that's crazy.

I would agree this team had an issue with playing as the favorite. They were much better when proving everyone wrong this season versus after they gained recognition.

IMO, for this NCAA jinx to end quickly, we need to be the lower seed, like the 10 in a 7/10 match-up. Everyone will proceed to bet heavily against us, our opponent will underestimate us, and before you know it the hunted becomes a very dangerous hunter.

[dreamhoya]

Mar 23, 2013 17:30:49 GMT -5 skyhoya said:

If Otto comes out and Whit doesn't get back, we won't be dancing next year.

Uh, Ike Copeland says hello....

To me, the times we've lost to these low seeds or high seeds - whatever - is all the guards have been quick. too quick and unrealistically hot whether it be scoring or dishing. look it up.

The interesting thing is that 3 of those 4 times (not counting NC State), GU just could not stop the opponent. So there's something to be said about whoever mentioned that JTIII alluding to the fact that they don't study opponents much. However, i've heard the term "scouting report" enough times this year to know that that's at least partially not true.

[chep3]

What about Fla. Gulf Coast was different than Louisville? We beat Louisville with this roster. We faced full court pressure with an aggressive, extending zone defense with these guards. We had to execute our offense against a team that could guard our bigs 1 on 1 without any help. We had to defend against a team that runs a lot of high ball screens with a really quick guard. But all of a sudden we can't win because our bigs are slow and can't finish and because our guards can't create?

Not to repeat myself, but there's not a basketball reason we lost yesterday. We lost because we didn't come to play. It's not a matchup thing, it's a mentality. And that's on III. Something's got to change. Whether that's him improving as a coach, getting an offensive coordinator, recruiting different skill sets than we have been, I'm not sure. But something's got to change.

[dreamhoya]

at one point GU won 11 straight while being the hunted...

[nashvillehoyas]

I recall Hoyas playing Vandy in a 8/9 game and then went on with three freshmen (Joey Brown, Robert Churchwell and Charles Harrison) to play UNLV from tip-off to the final horn.

[chep3]

Mar 23, 2013 17:48:22 GMT -5 dreamhoya said:

Uh, Ike Copeland says hello....

To me, the times we've lost to these low seeds or high seeds - whatever - is all the guards have been quick. too quick and unrealistically hot whether it be scoring or dishing. look it up.

The interesting thing is that 3 of those 4 times (not counting NC State), GU just could not stop the opponent. So there's something to be said about whoever mentioned that JTIII alluding to the fact that they don't study opponents much. However, i've heard the term "scouting report" enough times this year to know that that's at least partially not true.

Copeland's not coming here next year. And as for "quick" guards, we've played Peyton Siva, Yogi Ferrell, Shabazz Napier, Ryan Boatright, Junior Cadougan, etc. But, god forbid we run into Brett Comer or DJ Cooper.

[rockhoya]

Nitpicking but why would you mention Cadougan? He's the opposite of quick and DJ cooper is actually really quick and has had a historic career....

[dreamhoya]

Ok you're right. Yes, but read the rest. "Unrealistically hot.." I agree and that's why I thought that GU would win this game and go far. Only explanation I have left is it was mental...

[SSHoya]

Maybe the team needs a sports psychologist.

BTW, Jamie Dixon signed a ten-year contract extension at Pitt:


espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/9089508/pittsburgh-panthers-extend-coach-jamie-dixon

"The defeat marked Pitt's third straight early exit from the NCAAs. Dixon is 11-9 in the tournament but the Panthers -- who missed the NCAAs entirely last spring -- have not advanced past the opening weekend since 2009, when they lost to Villanova in the regional finals."

[dreamhoya]

Brey, Dixon, III....although I think GU will have their championship(s)...

[MCIGuy]

Mar 23, 2013 16:20:03 GMT -5 unclebeets said:

There are a few realities everyone needs to accept.

JTIII is not under the same pressure to win (or to recruit to win) as coaches at other high-profile programs. He never would have put GW in mothballs if it were otherwise. And this is nothing new -- Pops's post-season record had plenty of first weekend outs after 1985. The administration has a different set of priorities, simple as that.

First of all the team wasn't that far removed from a championship and three Final Fours after '85. Why would the administration put any pressure on Big John after such success? His son is not in the same boat although I do realize that III isn't under any pressure from the school either. If this was Kentucky he would be gone by now.

Secondly lets clarify JT's run after 1985. I'm not sure what happened in '86 but in '87 the team made it to the Elite Eight.

In '88 the team made it to the round of 32 before bowing out I believe to a team that was a superior seed.

In '89 the Hoyas were a #1 seed and made it "only" to the Elite Eight.

In 1990 the team was a #2 or possibly a #3 seed but lost to Xavier in the second round. That was probably the biggest disappointing showing of a Big John team that I can think of.

In '91 that team was a mess with Mutombo, a recovering Zo (still not at full strength) and a cast of nobodies. I think it was a 7 or 8 seed but many thought it would lose to Vanderbilt in the first round. It won that game but lost in the second round, as it should have, to a superior UNLV team that was trying to repeat as champions.

In '92 Deke was gone, Zo was healthy and the team was still filled with a bunch of nobodies. The Hoyas made it to the second round and lost to what I think was the higher seeded team which was Florida State. No upset there.

The Hoyas missed the tourney in 93.

In '94 Othella, Don Reid and George Butler helped Georgetown beat the superior seed, Illinois, in the first round but lost to eventual champion Arkansas in the second round.

In '95 Iverson and the boys made it to the Sweet Sixteen but lost to the superior seed UNC.

In '96 the 32 seeded Hoyas made it to the Elite Eight where they were defeated by the #1 seed UMass.

In 1997 the Victor Page-led Hoyas made it to the tourney as probably a five to eight seed and lost in the first round. The first first round loss of JT's Hoyas in an eternity, perhaps ever.

And that was the last JT team to make the tourney I think.

As you can see only one of those teams had a first round loss in the tournament (came when JT was half-way checked out as coach anyway). Only twice did the Hoyas lose to an inferior seed and in both times this occurred in the Elite Eight (should be pointed out that one of the opponents was #2 seed Duke whom the Hoyas lost to in the Elite Eight of 1989). Perhaps the only time JT's teams lost to a double digit seed opponent was possibly in 1997 (unless that team was a # 9 seed instead). JT's teams did not lose five straight games to double digit seeds. So let's not act as if III's showings the past five trips compare to what his dad did after 1985.

[bmartin]

If Boatright played for FGCU instead of Comer we would still be in the tournament.

[Big Dog]

Mar 23, 2013 14:51:34 GMT -5 guru said:

Mar 23, 2013 14:26:16 GMT -5 OldHoyafan said:

I think III took Markel and Otto out at the same time for two different reasons:
(!) Markel was taken out because he had fail to slow the offense down and allowed FGCU to get out on several fast breaks, and
(2) Otto was taken out because he was dead tired and winded because of Starks wanting to run.
The OCC schedule will be at a premium for Georgetown next year. As the flagship for the new conference they will have to show the basketball media that they are worthy of a ranking given this fizzle out this year, or the conference won't be given first tier consideration.

We are the flagship program in our own minds. When next season tips off we will have had less recent postseason success than Marquette, Creighton, Butler, Villanova and Xavier. We have a decent brand name and plenty of regular season wins. But we are no one's flagship.

That's objectively false. Go read the recent Forbes story about how we will clearly be the Big East's anchor, the Georgetown attacks about the new conference decision making, and just about any national article about the Catholic 7 that featured a photo (which was always of the Hoyas.)

As I said a couple of days ago, we are to this new conference what the Yankees are to the AL East, or Texas to the Big 12, or Michigan football to the Big Ten. Do you think it matters that Wisconsin football has been better than Michigan for years now? Would it matter if the Rays and Orioles finished atop the division? We're the only national program in the new conference. Fortunately, the modern sports media decided that legends were made in the 1980s and that club can't really be cracked into without winning national titles.

[dreamhoya]

I agree bmart. i think.


I really wonder what it would be like with a great passing guard on GU's team.

[sleepy]

Mar 23, 2013 18:21:53 GMT -5 dreamhoya said:

I agree bmart. i think.


I really wonder what it would be like with a great passing guard on GU's team.

We had one. Chris averaged 5 assists a game his junior year. You probably won't get a guard who passes the ball much better than he did, especially his junior year. We'll probably get someone who passes it as well, but only a few point guards in the college game are really elite passers but they usually have other deficiencies that would limit them anyway so we would still have something to complain about.