hoyainspirit
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Post by hoyainspirit on Aug 23, 2012 7:47:06 GMT -5
Bump. Go Nats!
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sead43
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Post by sead43 on Aug 23, 2012 10:11:16 GMT -5
are they really shutting Strasburg down, including the potential post-season? believe me, i get it, he's still coming off Tommy John and they went into the season with an innings limit everyone knew about. but still, that's gotta be tough for all involved, especially Strasburg, to have to sit in the dugout (or at home or wherever) as his team plays in the playoffs for the first time in DC since 1933. The Atlantic summarized it well: "Come October, he will be part of an unprecedented situation in American team sports: a playoff team voluntarily benching one of its key players." remarkable. www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2012/08/why-the-nationals-are-right-to-shut-down-stephen-strasburg/261451/
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EasyEd
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Post by EasyEd on Aug 23, 2012 10:22:03 GMT -5
Seems to me that shutting Strasburg down is a sign of responsible leadership.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2012 10:47:14 GMT -5
Does anybody care that the Braves plan to shut down Kris Medlen due to his Tommy John recovery? Not only did he beat the Nats last night, but the Braves have won his last 16 starts. He's probably got 50 innings left, so it's unlikely that he'll be available into the postseason.
Anyone?
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hoyainspirit
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Post by hoyainspirit on Aug 23, 2012 11:39:55 GMT -5
Didn't realize Medlen had TJ surgery as well. He threw a bunch of junk which had the Nats off their stride all night long. AvantGuardHoya and I saw Stras pitch 6 innings of 4H, 1ER, 10K ball on Tues. Although I hate to see him go, I agree with the decision. Mike Wise's column, I think, is a good one.
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jgalt
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Post by jgalt on Aug 23, 2012 12:13:58 GMT -5
I find it so strange that only pitchers seem to be put on these types of rehab plans. Adrian Peterson had ACL and MCL surgery this off season but no one is talking about him playing only 13 games (and injury rates among RBs has got to be as high or higher than pitchers).
Wouldnt it make more sense to have waited until May to have him in the rotation? Thats how every other athlete who has major surgery seems to recover- have surgery then wait until you are healed to play. Not stop playing before the season ends. Just odd to me.
I dont think they should shut him down. There is no guarantee that the Nats are this good next year (look at the Phillies), you have a limited opportunity to win, you have to take advantage of it. But if you are going to shut him down, and have known all season that you are going to, why didnt you try to get him extra innings elsewhere. A great example being the game Tuesday, why did he come out to pitch after an hour rain delay? Isnt that sort of stop start game very detrimental to starting pitchers health?
Bottom line, this isnt about getting the Nats more wins- if it was they would have tried to find ways to save him innings. Its about keeping Scott Boras happy, first, then secondly keeping Stras healthy.
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Boz
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Post by Boz on Aug 23, 2012 12:33:00 GMT -5
Didn't realize Medlen had TJ surgery as well. He threw a bunch of junk which had the Nats off their stride all night long. AvantGuardHoya and I saw Stras pitch 6 innings of 4H, 1ER, 10K ball on Tues. Although I hate to see him go, I agree with the decision. Mike Wise's column, I think, is a good one. How is cheerleading how much power Boras has over the Nats a good column? You can agree with the decision or not, but there is nothing good about the fact that Scott Boras is dictating terms to the team. Yes, it may be the reality, but you shouldn't like it, as Wise seems to.
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Post by hoyawatcher on Aug 23, 2012 12:41:12 GMT -5
FWIW the Braves took the tact of putting Medlin in the bullpen to start the season to keep his innings low. He only recently was made a starter. Their plan for limiting his innings has already happened and he is supposed to be good to go for the rest of the year from what I understand. The alternative for Strasburg would have been to sit him to start the year but I don't think anyone really expected the team to be this strong this year. But both teams are looking to limit the innings of these players.
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hoyainspirit
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Post by hoyainspirit on Aug 23, 2012 13:32:50 GMT -5
Didn't realize Medlen had TJ surgery as well. He threw a bunch of junk which had the Nats off their stride all night long. AvantGuardHoya and I saw Stras pitch 6 innings of 4H, 1ER, 10K ball on Tues. Although I hate to see him go, I agree with the decision. Mike Wise's column, I think, is a good one. How is cheerleading how much power Boras has over the Nats a good column? You can agree with the decision or not, but there is nothing good about the fact that Scott Boras is dictating terms to the team. Yes, it may be the reality, but you shouldn't like it, as Wise seems to. Thought the column was good in that it explains what is really going on. All that was news to me. Had not seen that discussion previously.
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Boz
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Post by Boz on Aug 23, 2012 13:52:59 GMT -5
Oh, OK. Point taken.
For informative purposes, yes, it is good for that.
I really did not like that Wise seems to more or less approve of the fact that Scott Boras is basically the team doctor. Not to mention general manager.
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hoyainspirit
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Post by hoyainspirit on Aug 23, 2012 14:12:12 GMT -5
Rizzo does come off as if he is taking orders from Boras. Perhaps I should have said "informative" instead of "good".
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TBird41
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Post by TBird41 on Aug 23, 2012 16:06:53 GMT -5
FWIW the Braves took the tact of putting Medlin in the bullpen to start the season to keep his innings low. He only recently was made a starter. Their plan for limiting his innings has already happened and he is supposed to be good to go for the rest of the year from what I understand. The alternative for Strasburg would have been to sit him to start the year but I don't think anyone really expected the team to be this strong this year. But both teams are looking to limit the innings of these players. Lots of problems with this approach, IMO. First off, the innings limit is really arbitrary. There's not a lot of data that this is being based on, especially the use of innings as the measuring statistic for "overuse", or the arbitrary limit of 180 innings. Secondly, and more importantly, it is completely inexcusable if Strasburg is unable to start in the playoffs. Once it was decided that Strasburg would only get a finite number of innings, there are/were numerous ways to limit his innings to insure that he is able to pitch in the post season. He could go on the DL, they could pull him whenever there is a blowout, they could skip a start, they could go to a 6 man rotation, etc. The Nats are in control of Strasburg's innings--if he hits the limit (which they set before the season and were therefore aware of) before the playoffs, its the Nats' fault. It might be responsible to limit Strasburg's innings, but its not responsible to have him pitch all of the innings before the playoffs start, especially considering they have 6 game lead. Joe Sheehan of Sports Illustrated has a good breakdown of the problems in the Nats decision making. sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/writers/joe_sheehan/08/14/stephen-strasburg-nationals-innings-limit/index.html
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bmartin
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Post by bmartin on Aug 23, 2012 17:47:53 GMT -5
The Sheehan column is ignorant. Innings are just a surrogate to measure wear on the arm. Dragging out the inning count by skipping starts or taking him out after 5 or other dumb ideas that have been suggested would be worse and more likely to lead to injury than letting him pitch through the end of the season. That would not reduce the wear on the shoulder, elbow, and arm. This is not just about the TJ surgery. Strasburg has never pitched a full pro season. Other young pitchers that have been referenced had 160 or 170 inning seasons in the minors to build up the shoulder and arm strength.
The Braves might look smart for saving Medlin's starts but not if they lose the one game wild card playoff. I would rather use up Stras' innings winning the division than save them and fight for the wild card. Rizzo and the Nats are looking at this season as the beginning of a run where they expect to win the division every year and Stras will have plenty of postseason starts in his future.
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TBird41
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Post by TBird41 on Aug 24, 2012 7:47:10 GMT -5
The Sheehan column is ignorant. Innings are just a surrogate to measure wear on the arm. Dragging out the inning count by skipping starts or taking him out after 5 or other dumb ideas that have been suggested would be worse and more likely to lead to injury than letting him pitch through the end of the season. That would not reduce the wear on the shoulder, elbow, and arm. This is not just about the TJ surgery. Strasburg has never pitched a full pro season. Other young pitchers that have been referenced had 160 or 170 inning seasons in the minors to build up the shoulder and arm strength. The Braves might look smart for saving Medlin's starts but not if they lose the one game wild card playoff. I would rather use up Stras' innings winning the division than save them and fight for the wild card. Rizzo and the Nats are looking at this season as the beginning of a run where they expect to win the division every year and Stras will have plenty of postseason starts in his future. I'm curious as to what evidence you have that innings are a good surrogate? Also, if they are a good surrogate, why is skipping a start, or extending his rest time through a six man rotation not a good way to extend how far his innings go, especially considering the Nats have a 6.5 game lead and can afford to take some measures to save Strasburg for the playoffs. Also, extended runs of divisional dominance are nice, but flags fly forever. I doubt there's a White Sox fan that would trade 2005 for all the division titles the Twins won the past decade. (also, best laid plans--see Anaheim and Detroit)
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Boz
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Post by Boz on Aug 24, 2012 8:33:20 GMT -5
Come on, now! There's no reason the Nats shouldn't expect to dominate for years to come. They have exactly zero history of winning/success and they share a division with the Mets, Phillies, Braves and...well, the Rainbow Brites?? (a franchise that has won the WS twice, no matter how silly they look) I don't think their sights are set too high in the least.
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EasyEd
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Post by EasyEd on Aug 24, 2012 9:26:16 GMT -5
Oh yeah, win at all costs.
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Boz
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Post by Boz on Aug 24, 2012 10:00:35 GMT -5
Oh yeah, win at all costs. Not in the least. If medical advice says shut him down, then shut him down. I have no problem with that. All I'm saying is, if the Nats think that they are going to be able to repeat this season's performance over and over again for years to come, they are kidding themselves. But what do I know. I am only basing that on their entire history as a franchise, as well as the collected history of their closest competition. If they prove me wrong, I will be happy to admit it.
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bmartin
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Post by bmartin on Aug 24, 2012 20:23:29 GMT -5
This season is developing Strasburg to pitch full major league seasons. He needed to go to Spring Training and get ready pitch every fifth start with the recommended throwing work between starts so he could develop the physical and mental ability to do that for the next decade. He did not have 2 or 3 minor league seasons to develop that away from the spotlight the way that almost every other pitcher gradually built up to 30+ starts and 200 innings. Skipping starts disrupts the schedule and rhythm you are developing. He still would have to throw hard every third day or so.
Isn't obvious that innings are some magical stat but are used as an easily accessible measure of workload over a season? For a reliever you look at appearances. For a starter you look at innings. Within a game you look at pitches. The point is he needs to learn to be able to pitch 7 innings and get the good hitters out the 3rd time through the order. Anything other than pitching to his normal pitch count every 5th start would not be good development for the future.
The Nats have plenty of reasons to expect to be at the top of the NL East for a few more years. They have Stras, Gio, Zimmermann, and key bullpen guys locked up for several years, have Desmond, Espinosa, Harper, and other young players who will keep getting better, Zimmerman, Morse, Werth who are solid. Meanwhile the Phillies and Marlins are ditching players, the Mets are a mess, and the Braves are losing some of their leaders. This is not a one shot deal. The Nats are ahead of schedule. This type of season was not expected for a year or two.
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bmartin
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Post by bmartin on Aug 24, 2012 20:28:22 GMT -5
Meant to write that Innings are NOT some magical stat, just a convenient rule of thumb.
I always make mistakes trying to type a long post on my phone.
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hoyarooter
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Post by hoyarooter on Aug 25, 2012 3:54:13 GMT -5
The Sheehan column is ignorant. Innings are just a surrogate to measure wear on the arm. Dragging out the inning count by skipping starts or taking him out after 5 or other dumb ideas that have been suggested would be worse and more likely to lead to injury than letting him pitch through the end of the season. That would not reduce the wear on the shoulder, elbow, and arm. This is not just about the TJ surgery. Strasburg has never pitched a full pro season. Other young pitchers that have been referenced had 160 or 170 inning seasons in the minors to build up the shoulder and arm strength. The Braves might look smart for saving Medlin's starts but not if they lose the one game wild card playoff. I would rather use up Stras' innings winning the division than save them and fight for the wild card. Rizzo and the Nats are looking at this season as the beginning of a run where they expect to win the division every year and Stras will have plenty of postseason starts in his future. I'm curious as to what evidence you have that innings are a good surrogate? Also, if they are a good surrogate, why is skipping a start, or extending his rest time through a six man rotation not a good way to extend how far his innings go, especially considering the Nats have a 6.5 game lead and can afford to take some measures to save Strasburg for the playoffs. Also, extended runs of divisional dominance are nice, but flags fly forever. I doubt there's a White Sox fan that would trade 2005 for all the division titles the Twins won the past decade. (also, best laid plans--see Anaheim and Detroit) This is one White Sox fan who wouldn't trade 2005 for 10 other titles from any other team or combination of teams. And if I recall correctly, the last time a Washington baseball team won a World Series was what, 86 years ago? And Walter Johnson was still pitching for them? I'm betting there are some people who would give their right arms so their dads or granddads could see a Washington baseball title while still around to enjoy it.
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