RDF
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Post by RDF on Mar 3, 2012 17:27:17 GMT -5
I guess my argument is that there is enough blame to go around and its a bit short-sighted IMO to narrow in on one guy coming off the bench, because I don't think taking him out of the game alone would have made that much of a difference in the outcome. You're right--but you're also being blind to fact the issue with Starks has taken place all year. He cost the Hoyas the Cuse game as much as anyone with the crappy play minute Jason went out with foul trouble at start of 2nd Half. He doesn't handle pressure well at all. Just doesn't nor has he at any point in his FR/Soph season. So that's why he's taking some criticism. I defend the players because I think III's method of approaching pressure defense is horrific. Why is he so hesitant to have his teams attack? You can't do the hot potato BS in backcourt and think you'll ever accomplish anything to beat a good team. As for the "elite guard"--yeah-the poster above is correct--I'd settle for a pure/true guard--but if you do that--you have to let him handle the ball/make decisions/run the team. Great players will come minute you show them you'll let them play their game/adapt to how they play. Doesn't mean you ignore rest of team/way you prefer to play--but you incorporate things to make team/program better. He needs to address this position with speed/ballhandling and if that means the guy is more of a penetrator and not a great shooter--so be it. At least a player like that can help the team when they don't score instead of being a complete liability.
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hoyainspirit
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Post by hoyainspirit on Mar 3, 2012 17:31:28 GMT -5
Agree with not taking advantage of foul shots, that has been problem all year. Also since getting called with ticky tack fouls, shouldn't we make sure after first five minutes of ticky tack fouls on our end and no fouls despite hacking on their end that we take a lesson from the untouchables and make sure every foul counts! That was a great foul on Lubick by Blue? when he had the steal. Sent a bad FT shooter to the line rather than give up the easy deuce.
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Nevada Hoya
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Post by Nevada Hoya on Mar 3, 2012 17:31:53 GMT -5
Just got back from the game watch - my first "live" Hoya game of the year. No heart attacks - we never got close enough for that. TOs and FTs (both our misses and their mades) killed us. Only bright spots were Otto, with a career high, but even he missed his unmissable jumpers, and Hopkins - at least he shot FTs well. Hollis in a 30 second turnaround left four points off the board. Other than that a great day with some nice Hoyas. ![::)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/eyesroll.png)
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Post by aleutianhoya on Mar 3, 2012 17:36:43 GMT -5
We've attacked zone pressure a lot this year, and done so effectively. We rely on the rear-diagonal pass against a run-and-jump defense, which is what (most of the time) this was. The most effective way to beat a run-and-jump is to have a point guard who can dribble around the double team or at least scramble it enough to make the pass to the other guard an easy one. The rear diagonal is a risk free way to do that, but only if done quickly. Either way, you hope to have one guard with the ball with a 4-3 in the front court.
The mistake they constantly made was throwing the ball to the middle of the court at around half-court. That's a good play against a typical zone press, but against a run and jump, you have man to man pressure defense against everyone in the front court.
You have to beat it with backcourt ballhandling and quick side to side passing.
Marquette changed the pressure just enough to make it difficult (apparently) to tell what was coming. But most of the time it was a man look with double team/run and jump principles.
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Nevada Hoya
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Post by Nevada Hoya on Mar 3, 2012 17:37:06 GMT -5
Also, there were some terrible calls, IMO; not enough to determine the outcome, but frustrating anyway. Greg got killed and knocked down, and I think the foul was on him.
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hoyainspirit
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Post by hoyainspirit on Mar 3, 2012 17:39:22 GMT -5
Also, there were some terrible calls, IMO; not enough to determine the outcome, but frustrating anyway. Greg got killed and knocked down, and I think the foul was on him. Man, you ought to read the game thread. Lots of discussion on calls.
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HometownHoya
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Post by HometownHoya on Mar 3, 2012 17:40:35 GMT -5
How many times did Jabril bring the ball up against the press today? I would like to have seen him more then the 7 minutes he played, not so much due to his skills but more to give Jason a rest (36 minutes today!). Jabril would not have been our answer against the press, he even had 2 TOs in his short time on the floor, but he could have given Jason some rest.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Mar 3, 2012 17:40:50 GMT -5
I wish we could put Hopkins' abilities in the post into Henry Sims' body. I think as Hopkins matures, he is going to be a really good player.
While I have been advocating that Sims should take less shots (for the sake of efficiency and because he wasn't making a ton), I think today he was too far in the opposite direction. It seems like every time he gets the ball in the post, he automatically looks to pass and never thinks about some sort of post move, a hook shot, etc. As a result, I think it allows the defense on the other team to better cover our other four guys. Granted, I'd prefer a pass to a bad post shot, but there has to be a happy medium there somewhere.
This is certainly not why we lost the game today, but it has been a weakness for the offense. I don't expect this to change much at this point, but a little more sharpness in the post would go a long way.
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calhoya
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Post by calhoya on Mar 3, 2012 17:41:02 GMT -5
The major positive this year has been the development of the freshmen and the major negative has been the lack of development of the sophomores.
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Eurostar
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Post by Eurostar on Mar 3, 2012 18:12:20 GMT -5
I really find it hard to believe that we didnt adjust on the press all day. They were doing THE SAME press all night... ie Clark would get the ball and motion for Starks to clear out and run down the court. Starks would run down halfway while his man would leave him to go double Jason. Then Jason would dribble backwards, jump up in the air and go for a long pass that may or may not get intercepted.
Lots of problems today obviously. Turnovers, inability to handle the press, fouls, refs, foul shooting. But the biggest problem was lack of intensity. This is a HUGE game for this team and they got out hustled for most of the game. This has happened our last 2 away games. It cannot happen again when we go away from home and play a hard nosed Pitt team at the Garden where their fans will outnumber ours.
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Nevada Hoya
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Post by Nevada Hoya on Mar 3, 2012 18:20:55 GMT -5
Also, there were some terrible calls, IMO; not enough to determine the outcome, but frustrating anyway. Greg got killed and knocked down, and I think the foul was on him. Man, you ought to read the game thread. Lots of discussion on calls. Yeah, I hadn't read the previous 24 pages when I wrote this. I will have to go back (or not) and read some of them.
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Nevada Hoya
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Post by Nevada Hoya on Mar 3, 2012 18:22:36 GMT -5
The major positive this year has been the development of the freshmen and the major negative has been the lack of development of the sophomores. Sophomore jinx. Maybe they will come back stronger than ever next year. I hope, I hope, I hope.
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Post by flyoverhoya on Mar 3, 2012 18:59:07 GMT -5
Just back from the game - looks like it's all been said. The few times we broke the press cleanly, the guy in the middle who caught the ball never turned around, and we missed some easy points that way. Must have been an ACC officiating crew. I know blaming the refs is lame, but I lost it when Crowder went to the line after apparently punching Greg.
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swhoya
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Post by swhoya on Mar 3, 2012 19:06:38 GMT -5
MF, Yes, Starks has a lot to do with this.....He turned the ball over, ghastly turnovers, three times in four minutes when he came in the first half. His inability to run the offense makes us play Jason more at the 1, which isn't his ideal position, and his extra minutes led to him missing free-throws in the first half. Starks was so bad that III had to yank him, which cut into Jason's rest, which hurt our rotation. Yes, Starks had a lot to do with this defeat Sorry, I love what Jason has brought to the team this year, the way he's elevated his game. But while Starks didn't do much to help us this game, the simple fact is that Jason HURT us this game. Whatever was in his head while he kept backpeddling and throwing passes down the court while off balance? One after another after another. I give Clark a pass because he's given us so much this year. And I'd take him over Starks any game. But Jason hurt us this game. To make Starks the whipping boy is just silly.
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Big Dog
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Post by Big Dog on Mar 3, 2012 19:48:36 GMT -5
I was at the game--lucky to have tremendous seats a row off the floor. The notion that we somehow didn't show up or lacked intesity is nonsense. As some like RDF have alluded to, our ability to win this game may have gone out the door with preparation.
Everybody was touting our new lineup, but it's weakness was ballhandling, and Buzz immediately sought to attack that with pressure. We were rattled immediately. Markel quickly had to come in; he was rattled. Clark went to the bench for just an instant in the first half and it was total disaster. How could we appear totally unprepared to deal with it? Buzz was ready. We were not.
I hate talking about refs too, but itis warranted not so much where it creates a disparity in outcomes, but where as here, the terrible and imbalances calls clearly got to our guys. Clark, Whittington, and Sims all seemed ready to lose it about the calls at one point or another in the second half. Obviously we need to deal with adversity, but this was at another level.
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NCHoya
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Post by NCHoya on Mar 3, 2012 20:19:14 GMT -5
The guys looked rattled today against the press and with the way the game was being called. It happens when you are playing on the road against a Top 10 team.
Just want to make sure no one is losng perspective here this was senior day for a legit Top 10 team led by two All-BE 1st team seniors. This outcome could have been easily predicted. You could throw out all those geeky stats that kenpom and such sites use to predict this game as a toss-up. The reality is when it is the last home game for a very talented team like MU bad things are going to happen for the Hoyas. Similar to what the Hoyas did against ND. The refs clearly were caught up in the atmosphere and provided an added boost to the home team. It is what it is.
I was also puzzled with the strategy against the press. We have not been so bad against the press, but today, it was bad. When Clark came out for a moment, Buzz immediately went to the press and it really hurt us as Markel could not handle it. We miss CW against the press, I remember last year hoping teams would press us. But with a dominant point guard you get stagnant halfcourt offense as well so it is not like a great ballhandler solves all problems, it is simply a trade-off like anything else.
At least the young guys got some good minutes against a good team. I am looking forward to see how Hopkins progresses. If he takes things seriously next season could be a breakout year for him, he has very nice post moves and a good touch already.
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sleepy
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Post by sleepy on Mar 3, 2012 20:29:11 GMT -5
wow can't read the beating up of our backcourt anymore. What else can be said? They sucked and in true III strategy we made little in the way of adjustments. Stubborn I don't know. Reminded me of playing against Louisville with Chris Wright as a sophmore they killed us with the pressure. Use to be able to utilize Green in the backcourt against pressure but i guess our 6-8 nba 2nd round draft choice doesn't have an adequate handle either. Maybe we were actually looking to attack of pressure but were never in a position to catch and pass opposite.
I get Starks less than stellar but you break a press with 5 not 2. And for my money they brough a lot more pressure every time Clark got the inbounds.
All that said you hit 3 front end of a 1-1 in the first half and a decent % of the rest and we go of the court with a 3-5 point game. Oh and maybe we can keep Otto and Sims on the court the last 7 mins of of that half different ball game.
I don't have too much of a problem with the officials it was reffed like gu /nova game. Despite what some may say we competed hard and agressively far more so than in our earlier games with Cinci and Pitt. What was lacking was real leadership and patience from our 2 seniors. Henry needs to play more than 25 mins Hollis as well, and what can you say about 8 turnovers from clark most which turned in to points.
Despite todays outcome i'm pretty confident going into next week. We will handle Pitt or Rutgers and this is a different team than the one that lost at home 50 days ago.
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NCHoya
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Post by NCHoya on Mar 3, 2012 20:42:44 GMT -5
Yeah, I forgot to add Jason had his worst game of the season. I am glad it happened now and hopefully he gets this out of his system. Clark has been very solid all year, a true leader and warrior, but today it just seemed the game got taken to him at times. I am sure he will rebound quickly and be ready next game.
Totally agree with Sleepy, the difference in the first half was terrible FT shooting. That must improve going forward. Get that fixed and even a game like this one is a 1 or 2 possession game when it counts.
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Post by michaelgrahamfan on Mar 3, 2012 20:44:06 GMT -5
I was at the game two rows from the floor so I could see the reactions of the players pretty well. I can tell you the this is the worst I have seen Clark play, ever. No expression after turnover after trunover. We deserved to lose and it should have been worse, except MU could not hit open shots through much of the game. Their student section is one of the best I have ever experienced. With the exception of Otto sims and Thompson everyone else looked pretty intimidated including Clark. So much for senior leadership.
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drquigley
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Post by drquigley on Mar 3, 2012 20:57:49 GMT -5
Let's all take a deep breath. Lose by 2 or 14 we weren't going to win this game. And folks, I hate to say it but we aren't going to win the BET. But WE ARE GOING TO THE ELITE 8 and when the dust settles we're going to be happy with this year. BTW, anyone who thinks Lubick will ever shoot better than 50% from the line is blind. He has the ugliest shooting stroke I've ever seen from a Hoya.
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