KirbyKeger
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Post by KirbyKeger on Dec 22, 2011 23:52:46 GMT -5
I think the only thing that III could do to make everyone a bit more comfortable is put in Hopkins at the 4 for a couple of 3 minute stretches with the starters. Garbage time out there with Caprio really doesn't help, but if you surround him with our best players, I think he would get more comfortable quickly. That way, when Nate or Henry is in foul trouble, Hopkins entering the game won't be an unfamiliar situation. Garbage time won't do the trick though. I don't think we'd have much to lose if he's in there with a top notch lineup for short stretches.
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gahoya
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Post by gahoya on Dec 22, 2011 23:57:13 GMT -5
If Nate's biggest problem is his confidence, I think benching him in favor of Otto would be a horrible move.
That said, does it really matter who starts? Otto is playing plenty and is in when the game ends. I don't see the problem.
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Post by Ranch Dressing on Dec 23, 2011 0:08:40 GMT -5
I think we continue to bring Otto in off the bench. No need to bench Nate - just disappointed in his play.
If the best we get from Nate is that he doesn't hurt the offense, then that is a disappointment. If you think you have a legitimate Top 25 team that is going to compete in the Top 6-8 of the Big East, then each of your starters need to be contributors. Not "I hope he doesn't hurt us" players.
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OldHoyafan
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Post by OldHoyafan on Dec 23, 2011 0:57:15 GMT -5
The Hoyas won't have to wait for Syracuse to see a zone defense, because I predict Pitino will play mostly zone against the Hoyas. Thompson's teams have carved up his vaunted defense in the past. The team was very passive against Memphis' zone tonight. Starks has to penetrate the middle more and the players must keep moving in and out from the foul line.
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Post by professorhoya on Dec 23, 2011 1:55:14 GMT -5
2) Nate was perfectly fine tonight 2pts, 4 rebounds, 3 assists only one turnover. He had a lot of heady plays. He facilitates the offense. It doesn't stagnate because of him. I think we all wish he did a little more, but he didn't hurt us at all today. Otto's stats were equally bad. 5 pts, 4 reb, 3 assists, 1 steal. But really his impact on the game is alot more than the stat line. Let's be honest, the big three (Hollis, Sims, Clark) are going to put up the stats and get the opportunities. Porter and Lubick are the 5th option behind Starks. Hard to put up great stat lines in such a situation. Lubick's role on this years team is not to score. And he knows it. Would you rather have the Jeremiah mentality and shoot whenever you feel like it. I'm fine with his role.
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Post by professorhoya on Dec 23, 2011 1:59:24 GMT -5
The Hoyas won't have to wait for Syracuse to see a zone defense, because I predict Pitino will play mostly zone against the Hoyas. Thompson's teams have carved up his vaunted defense in the past. The team was very passive against Memphis' zone tonight. Starks has to penetrate the middle more and the players must keep moving in and out from the foul line. I don't think that Starks has that extra gear to dribble penetrate the zone. But as long as you have Sims, Hollis or Porter come to top of the box then that should break the zone. I think the problem in this game was we had Sims and Lubick with Trawick and Whittington and Starks in the game at the same time. And that's not the type of combination you want in against the Zone. You need an active guy along the baseline like a Porter or Hollis as a piece to breaking the zone.
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Post by professorhoya on Dec 23, 2011 2:01:09 GMT -5
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DanMcQ
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Post by DanMcQ on Dec 23, 2011 6:44:10 GMT -5
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Post by aleutianhoya on Dec 23, 2011 7:33:52 GMT -5
To say that Nate was "brutal in almost every facet of the game" is, well, just plain wrong.
He was an active and successful rebounder (second on the team per minute played; more than Otto and just behind Henry); he didn't turn the ball over (which, in our offense, means more than just "he didn't do bad things"); and he is easily the best screen-setter on the team (including an extremely head's up kick out and screen early in the game to Markel). Those all are important facets of the game.
Obviously, it would improve his and the team's performance if he at least took two open ten footers a game, and we know he's capable of making them. But his failure (and it is a failure) in that regard can't take away from what was an otherwise very solid performance.
And, as Ranch noted correctly, he is basically playing sixth man minutes, not starter minutes anyway.
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Post by hoyas big supporter on Dec 23, 2011 7:38:48 GMT -5
Guys, I dont want to sound like a Nate basher, but he was a top 50 recruit. He has much more game, he has to start showing it. Having someone who simply "does not hurt us" will eventually turn into a liability.
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rosslynhoya
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Post by rosslynhoya on Dec 23, 2011 8:53:10 GMT -5
Guys, I dont want to sound like a Nate basher, but he was a top 50 recruit. He has much more game, he has to start showing it. Having someone who simply "does not hurt us" will eventually turn into a liability. It doesn't have to be bashing. If you look at the analysis broken down by SF earlier, Nate is playing as well as or better than any other PF that was ranked between 21-50 in his class. The troublesome fact though is that massive offensive talent was part of that ranking and for some reason in gametime that's completely evaporated. It's like they use a smaller ball or bigger hoop in Boston or something. Nate is frustrating us this year for the same reason that Henry frustrated us for three: he should be playing so much better than he is right now. I'd also throw out an ill comparison to a young Roy: as long as Nate has a reputation for awkward clumsiness, etc., he's going to get hosed by the officials. If Nate didn't head to the bench with those ticky-tack touch fouls yesterday, I think he would have been on the court more down the stretch. Please correct me, but didn't we jump out to the 20-point lead with Nate in the lineup? Not-hurting-us on offense is one thing, but our defensive performance seems measurably better when Nate is out there. As a team we seem to crash the boards better and generate more steals when Nate's in the paint. We also seem to give up fewer open looks from three when he's present, because he doesn't need as much defensive help from the wings. I like the balance we're seeing right now with Lubick starting and Porter getting whatever minutes he earns. I also think it's the best scenario for getting Nate's head back into the zone.
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calhoya
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Post by calhoya on Dec 23, 2011 9:00:28 GMT -5
1) Memphis refused to talk to the press and were in the locker room as Philly said for hours. I think we broke them. 2) Nate was perfectly fine tonight 2pts, 4 rebounds, 3 assists only one turnover. He had a lot of heady plays. He facilitates the offense. It doesn't stagnate because of him. I think we all wish he did a little more, but he didn't hurt us at all today. 3) Coach put in the bench up 20 and it nearly cost us the game. What do you want him to do? Actually Nate has not been fine all year. He was more aggressive on offense last year. I am a big Nate fan, but once it is apparent that he will not look to take a shot and is only going to pass, then it takes considerable pressure off the other team's defense. If he has a shot and takes it this will change. As for putting in the bench, up 20, the coach has other options. I have been around basketball most of my life and the coaches I have watched and learned from always integrate the bench players with the starters. You don't insert a "second team" if you are trying to develop some chemistry with the starters. You take Hopkins, Bowen, etc. and give them a run with at least 3 of the starters. Up 20 last night would have been a good opportunity for Hopkins to play with some of the starters--unless JT III has decided he is simply not going to be a factor this year. If we need Hopkins this year it will be because of an injury or foul trouble to Simms. He will be playing with starters at that point.
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guru
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Post by guru on Dec 23, 2011 9:30:20 GMT -5
I like Nate and rooting hard for him to break out of his season-long funk. But right now he's a liability out there on offense. The opponent can sag way off him, which limits his passing opportunities and negates what may be his biggest asset at the moment. His rebounding is only average as well, and he's still resorting to that slap move too frequently.
He just looks a little lost, and sapped of confidence. Maybe we should run a few plays for him at the start of the next game - I have a feeling that if he saw a few drop, everything else would start to align for him.
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Post by ColumbiaHeightsHoya on Dec 23, 2011 9:48:11 GMT -5
Memphis coaching is horrible. With all that talent, they should never be that bad. Pastner just doesn't seem up to the task of head coach. I am still scratching my head at the flagrant on Whittington & the non-tech call on Pastner when he disrupted play because he was on the court. Two of the oddest calls I have ever seen.
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Post by ColumbiaHeightsHoya on Dec 23, 2011 9:53:59 GMT -5
Also, what happened to Witherspoon? that guy was a huge mismatch (about ten years ago) and he hasn't developed one bit. If I am a marquee recruit, no way I am going to Memphis. You won't develop and at least we have an offensive system, I have no idea what they were doing last night.
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rosslynhoya
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Post by rosslynhoya on Dec 23, 2011 9:55:52 GMT -5
Every time I go to one of these sites, I'm always flooded with appreciation for our mods and my fellow HoyaTalkers. Not including their actual game-discussion thread, there have got to be 30+ other threads with an average of 5-6 posts in each, ranting about some facet of the Memphis program in semi-literate fashion. It ends up being absolutely incoherent.
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guru
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Post by guru on Dec 23, 2011 10:10:31 GMT -5
Also, what happened to Witherspoon? that guy was a huge mismatch (about ten years ago) and he hasn't developed one bit. If I am a marquee recruit, no way I am going to Memphis. You won't develop and at least we have an offensive system, I have no idea what they were doing last night. Yes, I can't believe none of the game articles have addressed those two incidents, each of which was incredibly odd. Did people watching on TV get to see a replay of the Whittington play? It looked absolutely incidental to me. Wonder what Raf had to say about Pastner being on the court too (I don't wonder what McDonough had to say - I'm sure he was convinced they were good calls since they went against the Hoyas).
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Post by ColumbiaHeightsHoya on Dec 23, 2011 10:25:18 GMT -5
Joe Jackson - McD All-American, Witherspoon - Jordan brand all-american, Will Barton - McD All- American, Adonis Thomas - McD All-American. For a team featuring that talent along with Tarik Black who was a big time recruit, their on court product is just terrible.
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EasyEd
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Post by EasyEd on Dec 23, 2011 10:31:07 GMT -5
We're 9-1 as our OOC ends. That's at least one game better than would have been expected before the season began. My observations over the ten games: -Defense is better this year including much more use of some form of a press, as well as a zone. -More aggressive offense than last year, particularly with the guards and small forwards attacking the basket better. -Eating my earlier words, Henry has been tons more effective than last year. -Markel has shown himself to be a capable BE PG and his 3 pt. accuracy, an amazing surprise. -Jason has been much more aggressive in driving the basket and has (so far) greatly improved his handle. -Hollis has stepped up all phases of his game, particularly his rebounding. Stroke is beautiful. -Nate has been no better nor no worse than last year. Wondering if JT3 has told him not to shoot. Seriously. -Otto has become a dependable part of our team with great basketball IQ and good overall game. -Greg is an unknown so far as he has failed to do anything substantial on offense though his defense is solid, particularly in the press. -Jabril has had few minutes but seems always to show up on the scoreboard and his defense is very good. -Mikael has looked good in the few minutes he has played. -Aaron seems like the last man off the bench and will likely remain so.
Cautiously excited about this team.
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Post by BubbleVisionBiff on Dec 23, 2011 10:40:40 GMT -5
ESPN 980 guy just blasted Cahill.
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