NBA Hoyas

[RDF]

May 11, 2011 21:10:29 GMT -5 DanMcQ said:

Green will be fine. The 'drop' in the 4th quarter tonight was a horrible pass from Paul Pierce. Actual Celtics fans will see Green for what he is: the future.

Dan, wouldn't buy that. Celtics fans were skeptical about the trade and now will turn on him/anyone associated with "changing" the team. Unfair, but that's how it'll go down until Green proves he can handle being a player in a tough town. They won't want to hug him and offer him trays of cookies like OKC people.

Awful trade for Boston. I understand the "future" angle but there is never a guarantee you will be in contention in the future. They were favorite/best team prior to the trade and you go for championships when you have the chance. If guys leave after, so be it, but rather have an 18th banner and someone leave then blow up the best team in NBA, fall short of 2nd Round and the "future" is a finesse forward in a town that will blame him as part of the reason they came up short.

Rondo getting injured was difference imo, along with horrific value of ball (looked like the Hoyas the past few years with the careless passing/sloppy unforced turnovers).

[RDF]

May 11, 2011 22:05:55 GMT -5 DanMcQ said:

Just for reference, here are the lines for 'savior' Kendrick Perkins in the playoffs thus far:

Denver:

1. 28 mins; 4 pts; 5 rebs
2. 26 mins; 7 pts; 11 rebs
3. 19 mins; 2 pts; 2 rebs
4. 27 mins; 3 pts; 6 rebs
5. 30 mins; 11 pts; 9 rebs

Memphis:

1. 29 mins; 2 pts; 6 rebs
2. 32 mins; 2 pts; 5 rebs
3. 31 mins; 6 pts; 13 rebs
4. 35 mins; 4 pts; 8 rebs

The only thing Perkins would give the Celtics would have been minutes.

His 'interior intimidation' has held Randolph and Gasol to 54 pts and 23 rebs in game 1; 28 and 19 in game 2; 37 and 28 in game 3; and 60 and 37 in game 4.

Perk has a great scowl and he's apparently a great guy, but his impact was way overblown.

All that matters is this Dan:

With Perkins--They won a series, are up 3-2 with WCF matchup likely, and he's allowed Ibaka/Collison to play natural spots. He's provided leadership off the court which is valuable and for a guy that Doc Rivers talked up (we never lost a series with our starting 5--he's still right btw ) to be displaced as some sort of "Look at his numbers". What numbers did he put up in Boston that have changed? He's doing his job and when you win, you get too much credit/lose too much blame. Although when the coach of a team talks you up/team reacts the way Boston did when they lost him (talking about vets) his impact was far more then you're stats give him credit. He made Glen Davis a more valuable player because Davis could play PF and bang around knowing they had fouls and he would've made Shaq/Jermaine O'Neal's fouls more of a factor on Wade/Lebron driving--because you'd have had 24 fouls from Perkins/O'Neal Corpse/O'Neal Stiff/Big Baby.

Same way that Tony Allen's loss was felt against a team like Miami. Role players matter a lot more when you see supposedly "superior talent" playing in their place.

Do you think Doc Rivers would take back Kendrick for Jeff right now? Perkins toughness made Garnett more valuable too--he didn't have to do dirty work inside--where he's never been a good player--he's a face up 4 who would rather stay out of fray then bang. Without Perkins in Game 7, Gasol worked over KG last year--and at least they had Sheed to help him/bring some toughness.

Rule of thumb in NBA--never trade down unless the little guy is clearly superior player. Was Jeff superior to Perkins in any way?

[bosoxfan3]

May 11, 2011 23:52:03 GMT -5 gujake said:

Your sentence about Pierce is hard to understand, but if you are saying he doesn't get any blame for the game or that pass because "he has succeeded many a time in a situation like this before"... well, that is just poor logic. Just because he has succeeded in the past doesn't mean he shouldn't get any blame when he messes up. Pierce has his fair share of late game mistakes, as does pretty much every player that has been in the league for a long time. He's not exempt from making mistakes.

It was a dumb pass - he rushed into the frontcourt while his teammates were still catching up and the defense was already set (and Jeff was guarded). There was nothing there. He made a dumb pass, and Jeff dropped it. Pierce had a bad game. It happens.

You seem to think you were getting an all-star caliber player in Jeff Green with the trade. Jeff is a decent NBA player, but I don't understand why Celtics fans are holding him to such a high standard. Like I said in my previous post, he's doing pretty much the same thing he's always done as an NBA player.

Personally, I hope he plays somewhere else next year.

In addition to what RDF said, which, I think is spot on... the point is people are ALWAYS going to blame Jeff Green in a situation like that. Much like any of us would have blamed, say, Markel this past season if Chris or Austin had made that same pass to him (only more, because, you know, Pierce has won stuff... but I digress!).

And we wanted Green to be better than what he is right now (which is a remarkably mediocre/average NBA player who shows flashes of talent that make it all the more frustrating when he disappears for long periods of time) because guess what? We have higher standards that OKC. That's what comes from being an elite team for four years and winning a title. OKC is having a hellvua ride right now and is arguably the better team (especially post-trade)... but do their fans have the same expectations? Hell no they don't. Jeff Green was supposed to replace Perkins' production in some way (not exactly the same, way clearly, but you should get the point)... and in the eyes of Celtics fans, he didn't. Perk brought a toughness to the team that was invaluable. He had great chemistry with his teammates. Neither of those things can be said about Jeff. Hopefully in the future they will be and Jeff can put all the pieces together right now, but he's a target for frustrated Cs fans right now (hard as it may be for you to believe, there are those who are faaaaar less charitable than I am right now) who see him as the difference between even last year (a Perk injury away from banner 18 ) and this year, even if Rondo's injury essentially ruined any chances we had at another title.

Point is, Jeff is not going to get treated particularly fairly or nicely by Boston fans, I don't think. He'll be associated with losing a fan favorite and a 4-1 loss to the hated Heat. That is NOT a good way to start a career with a team and I can only hope he plays well enough for us in the future to shed that label and become a star. Or at least better than what he is right now. Which is a mediocre bench player.

[KirbyKeger]

As a Celtics fan, I want Jeff in green for years to come. First of all, that pass was entirely on Paul Pierce. Jeff's momentum was taking him to the baseline and Paul put the pass behind him. Open and shut case. Overall, Jeff did not acquire much trust until this series, and even then, he had a fairly short leash. He has shown that he can lock down Lebron. He's shown a lot of tools on offense. He gives this team much-needed athleticism and youth. Celtics fans will come around. They have to. The Big 3 don't have much left in the tank, and this team is going to become increasingly young. It starts with Rondo as the centerpiece, and Green as his running mate. That may be a season or two in the future, but it seems like Jeff is actually really accepting of his role and absolutely loves being around Paul, Ray, and Kevin. He has expressed that Boston is where he wants to be. Also, Doc has indicated he's coming back, and people absolutely love to play for the guy. I guess what I'm saying is that Green has an opportunity to be a key cog in two eras of Celtic basketball: the Big 3 era and the future. The fans will come around. They know the team is old. The sooner they embrace that change is coming, the better.

[gujake]

May 12, 2011 0:19:16 GMT -5 bosoxfan3 said:

And we wanted Green to be better than what he is right now (which is a remarkably mediocre/average NBA player who shows flashes of talent that make it all the more frustrating when he disappears for long periods of time) because guess what? We have higher standards that OKC. That's what comes from being an elite team for four years and winning a title.

So, you expect a player to instantly become better just because he plays for the Celtics now? That doesn't make sense. You can (and should) have higher expectations for your TEAM than OKC, but there's no reason to think Jeff should become an all-star just because he's on the Celtics now.

I don't disagree with you about Jeff being an average SF in the NBA. But Celtics fans who are blaming him for the series/season are beyond ridiculous.

May 12, 2011 0:19:16 GMT -5 bosoxfan3 said:

Jeff Green was supposed to replace Perkins' production in some way (not exactly the same, way clearly, but you should get the point)... and in the eyes of Celtics fans, he didn't.

You used PER in one of your previous posts to show how Jeff is a mediocre player. Guess what? Perkins has a worse PER than Jeff this year. And, over the past 3 years, they are pretty much exactly equal.

I agree with RDF that is was a dumb trade for the Celtics. I don't see why you make a trade for a guy of equal value when you already have good team chemistry. But why is Jeff to blame for that? He didn't make the trade, and he played just as well as he always has.

[DanMcQ]

If Paul Pierce is so smart and experienced, why did he waste a useless second foul early in the first quarter on James who had a sure layup? That foul took away his margin for error and he ended up with 5 fouls early in the 4th so that he couldn't actually guard James - he simply stood there and let him get off those 3s. It's completely asinine to lay this series loss on Jeff Green. Pierce was awful - from the first game when he pulled the tough guy act and got himself thrown out to tonight with silly fouls that made him a defensive liability. Both he and Garnett gave up attacking the hoop as the game wore on, repeatedly making ridiculous passes out to the perimeter. And where was Glen "I can start for a team in the NBA" Davis this series?

My response to RDF's commentaries: Perkins would not have turned this series into a win for the Celtics. When Rondo could not play effectively, that was it. Perkins would not have changed that at all. As for your question of whether I'd make that trade again? Absolutely. Sure there will be plenty of sports radio yahoos who will blame Green, but the people who count (Ainge, Rivers, and ownership) know better.

May 11, 2011 23:59:27 GMT -5 RDF said:

Rondo getting injured was difference imo, along with horrific value of ball (looked like the Hoyas the past few years with the careless passing/sloppy unforced turnovers).

You're exactly right, and this is pretty much what I've said all along. Laying this at Green's door is myopic at best.

[bosoxfan3]

May 12, 2011 1:01:19 GMT -5 gujake said:

May 12, 2011 0:19:16 GMT -5 bosoxfan3 said:

And we wanted Green to be better than what he is right now (which is a remarkably mediocre/average NBA player who shows flashes of talent that make it all the more frustrating when he disappears for long periods of time) because guess what? We have higher standards that OKC. That's what comes from being an elite team for four years and winning a title.

So, you expect a player to instantly become better just because he plays for the Celtics now? That doesn't make sense. You can (and should) have higher expectations for your TEAM than OKC, but there's no reason to think Jeff should become an all-star just because he's on the Celtics now.

I don't disagree with you about Jeff being an average SF in the NBA. But Celtics fans who are blaming him for the series/season are beyond ridiculous.

May 12, 2011 0:19:16 GMT -5 bosoxfan3 said:

Jeff Green was supposed to replace Perkins' production in some way (not exactly the same, way clearly, but you should get the point)... and in the eyes of Celtics fans, he didn't.

You used PER in one of your previous posts to show how Jeff is a mediocre player. Guess what? Perkins has a worse PER than Jeff this year. And, over the past 3 years, they are pretty much exactly equal.

I agree with RDF that is was a dumb trade for the Celtics. I don't see why you make a trade for a guy of equal value when you already have good team chemistry. But why is Jeff to blame for that? He didn't make the trade, and he played just as well as he always has.

PER doesn't take defense into account particularly well (blocks and steals notwithstanding), and Perkins is widely acknowledged as one of the best interior one-on-one defenders in the league. He also brought a toughness to the Celtics that Green doesn't bring. My point isn't that Jeff is to blame for the trade; my point is that he will always be linked to the trade in a negative way (that's just how sports works. Let's not pretend like it is a new thing to judge players in a trade in comparison to the players they've been traded for and/or replaced) until he can carve out a role of his own... something that he hasn't done in a positive sense yet, and something I fear Celtics fans will not give him time to do unless he shows up next year and immediately sets the world on fire.


DanMcQ: Again, I'm not blaming this series on Jeff Green. But that doesn't mean he gets absolved for not playing well. And he hasn't built up the level of respect/appreciation that those other guys have built. In terms of tonight, Pierce got thrown off his game by early foul trouble. That fourth one in particular was ridiculous when you looked at everything else the refs were letting go underneath the basket... again, he didn't throw the best pass but he has carried us before and will carry us again. He's proven that and gotten some leeway. KG is KG- he's a defensive maniac and had an unbelievable game 3 (two things which, again, Green can't fall back on). Glen Davis was miserable and what he said about starting is absurd. I completely agree.

One last time: losing this series is not Jeff Green's fault. But what I saw from him was not good and he did nothing to convince me that he can be the player that Danny Ainge seemed to think he was acquiring. I guess we disagree that Green should have caught that pass (again, he got two hands on it. Didn't look good) but the point is not that he singlehandedly cost us the series... the point is he played like crap since he was acquired, and this was just the latest in a long line of disappointments from him.

[DanMcQ]

May 12, 2011 1:23:42 GMT -5 bosoxfan3 said:

the point is he played like crap since he was acquired, and this was just the latest in a long line of disappointments from him.

Wow. Way on the end of the hyperbolic scale. No, he wasn't an NBA All-Star. But you're really going overboard in dissing him. I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to violate RDF's edict that stats are worthless. Green had six games with 14+ points, including 21 against Golden State on 3/4, 18 against Philly on 3/18, 19 against Indy on 3/16, and 20 with 15 rebounds against the Wizards on 4/11. That's hardly crap in 24 minutes a game. The Celts' offense was geared to get the ball to Allen, Pierce, and Garnett. The second unit's offense was geared to get the ball to Davis, who failed miserably in the playoffs. For as much as Doc claimed to know him, I don't think he ever really figured out to how to use him most effectively. I expect that to change next year.

As for the pass, watch the play again. Green was moving towards the baseline and expected the pass to come that way - he had to reach back against his momentum to catch it because Pierce threw it behind him. I would have loved it if he caught it, but a healthy Rondo makes that pass accurately EVERY time.

My final comment on this: the player the Celtics needed most was Tony Allen, not Kendrick Perkins. They had nobody who could effectively guard DWade.

[hoyainspirit]

Greg Monroe shows his character as Helen Cox School retires his jersey

QUOTE
"Besides being a great basketball player, he was an outstanding student, outstanding person -- just an all-around great kid," said Monroe's high school coach, Tyron Mouzon, who also is the dean of students at Cox. "He really established a legacy here and established Helen Cox's name recognition throughout the state and throughout the country during his playing days here...

[HometownHoya]

Last night's loss was NOT Jeff's fault. Yes the loss off Perkins was difficult for the Celtics since he was the heart and soul but that shouldn't have mattered in this series. The opposing center was Joel Anthony!! Kristic actually produced in game 5 (surprised he even got in there though) but the center position was not where the game was won.

Playoff basketball is where a team made up like the Heat, Lakers (historically) and Celtics (multiple stars) or Bulls (star but strong defense) shine. All teams are committed to defense so it is all about the 1 on 1 match-ups. If you can beat the man guarding you and cause the defense to rotate or score, that is more important in the playoffs.

On that note, what lost last night's game was Doc not Coaching and the Celtics "Big 3" not producing. First, KG, Pierce, and Allen only has 2!!! points in the 4th quarter, you can't win like that. Second, KG had 16 of his 18 points in the 1st quarter, the 2 of the Big 3 in the 4th...that means he had 0 in the 2nd and 3rd, not good. Finally, the killing blow was Paul Pierce's foul trouble. Apparently he told Doc to leave him in after getting those late fouls, but Doc needs to be a Coach and take him OUT! Yes they needed Paul for his offense created but he COULDN't guard LeBron. LeBron knew this and attacked to put the Celtics away. Additionally, it seemed like Jeff was playing decently until that 4th quarter, now I can't help but think that maybe sending Jeff to the scorers table and pulling him back hurt his confidence some. I also feel like Doc needed to play Rondo more. Obviously we don't know how much in pain Rondo was but you need to save your best lineup for the last 2 minutes, its no use starting strong against the Dwayne Wayde's if you can't finish against the Heat. Maybe Doc didn't like how much they were playing off of Rondo, but I don't get that. That leaves Rondo to walk up for his midrange and he still has the quickness to get to the hoop.

The Celtics as a team lost that series, it wasn't the fault of one player missing a shot, an executive making a "bad" trade, or a coach making some wrong decisions.

They still have a strong team, will be able to get a new C in the offseason, since Big Baby is probably gone. I still think Ray has at least another 2 years as a top level shooter. A backup for KG will be needed since he is done after next year. While they won't be an elite team whenever the next NBA season is, they will be a solid team and should still make the playoffs.

[royski]

This hyperbolic reaction from Celtics fans is incredible imo. They were NEVER winning a 7 game series against the Heat, even with Perk and a healthy Rondo. Heat are the best team in the league, and that's beyond doubt at this point. Expecting to beat Wade AND LeBron AND Bosh 4 times in 7 games is crazy. The only team I could see doing it is OKC, and they would need Durant AND Westbrook to go supernova.

[HoyaSinceBirth]

When Jeff left the game the Celtics were up 7. When he came back in they were down 3. This loss is not on Jeff. Boston's big 3 lost the game during that stretch. It wasn't technically over, but in reality it was. Also the "drop" is credited as a bad pass by Pierce in the play by play. I think that is accurate.

[RDF]

May 12, 2011 10:30:57 GMT -5 royski said:

This hyperbolic reaction from Celtics fans is incredible imo. They were NEVER winning a 7 game series against the Heat, even with Perk and a healthy Rondo. Heat are the best team in the league, and that's beyond doubt at this point. Expecting to beat Wade AND LeBron AND Bosh 4 times in 7 games is crazy. The only team I could see doing it is OKC, and they would need Durant AND Westbrook to go supernova.

With a healthy Rondo and Perkins, Celtics win that series in 5-6 games--this year. Joel Anthony getting belittled is hilarious, guy has been utilized more because of the little things he brings--toughness, defense/rebounding. You know like the things Perkins used to bring to Boston's team. Perkins loss exposed the overhyped about KG's defensive leadership. Garnett is a great defender but he doesn't scare anyone from driving to the lane and won't deliver contact/blows that make guys pull up instead of taking it to hoop.

Jeff's comments about being excited to be in 2nd Round aren't going to endear him to anyone, and this "loves KG,Allen,Pierce" stuff is great, but their facing the end, he was brought in to help them, not learn from them and have torch passed. A team with Rondo/Jeff Green as future is a lottery team. They are great parts to have, not feature players on a contending NBA team.

[HoyaSinceBirth]

I think with a healthy Rondo they could have beaten the Heat with Green. They should have won both games 4 and 5.

[hoyarooter]

I'm going to avoid jumping into this debate between the voice of reason and the voice of a typical Celtics fan.

[bmartin]

I hope Jeff leaves so I can get back to hating all Boston teams and their idiot fans.

[deacon]

www.boston.com/sports/basketball/celtics/extras/celtics_blog/2011/05/weei_ainge_refl.html

The starting lineup could see some significant changes next season. If Jeff Green returns, Ainge said the 24-year-old's role will certainly be enhanced. Ainge said he intends to extend Green a qualifying offer before the July 30 deadline. He threw out the hypothetical possibility of Paul Pierce coming off the bench, but said the veterans will be willing to play different roles.

[KirbyKeger]

Ainge really sees Jeff as a serious building block for the future. Danny is definitely committed to trying to rebuild, while simultaneously giving the Big 3 another chance at a run, which they absolutely deserve. Then, in 2012, they'll try to make a serious splash as they'll really gain a lot of cap space with KG and Ray's expiring contracts. The new core would be Rondo, Green, and another big name (Dwight? Bynum?).

[tashoya]

Boston fans.... smh.

[tashoya]

May 12, 2011 8:47:02 GMT -5 hoyainspirit said:

Greg Monroe shows his character as Helen Cox School retires his jersey

QUOTE
"Besides being a great basketball player, he was an outstanding student, outstanding person -- just an all-around great kid," said Monroe's high school coach, Tyron Mouzon, who also is the dean of students at Cox. "He really established a legacy here and established Helen Cox's name recognition throughout the state and throughout the country during his playing days here...

Nice article. Thanks for the link.