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Post by nashvillehoyas on May 8, 2011 13:47:32 GMT -5
I believe that Green will replace Pierce in the starting lineup with Pierce coming off the bench. Doc Rivers would not traded for Green to become just a role player.
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KirbyKeger
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Post by KirbyKeger on May 8, 2011 13:58:38 GMT -5
Unless you're being sarcastic, that's not happening anytime soon. Pierce is locked up with a pretty big contract for 3 more seasons I believe. He's had the highest shooting percentages of his career for the past few seasons. It is far more likely that Green was acquired to be a role player and spark off the bench for this stretch run only. He could be back next season, but he is a restricted free agent so we'll see.
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DudeSlade
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Post by DudeSlade on May 8, 2011 17:41:52 GMT -5
The commentary made after the trade was that Danny Ainge saw what happened to his '80s Celtics when they kept stringing along an old team and failed to start pulling the pieces together to prepare for the future. Of course I can be wrong, but I got the impression at the time that the Green trade was with an eye on the long term, as Allen and Garnett are awfully close to retirement or at least much more restricted roles and Pierce already moves like the old man at a pick-up game, so picture him at the end of that 3 year contract. Might not be next year, but I would think the year after he will certainly be a starter for the Celtics in some capacity, unless he gets a fat contract to start elsewhere, which seems less and less likely.
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KirbyKeger
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Post by KirbyKeger on May 8, 2011 17:55:55 GMT -5
I would love nothing more than to see Jeff take another year as the 6th man, learning and really figuring out who he is as a player. After that, I think a long-term contract with the Celtics would make sense.
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Post by bosoxfan3 on May 11, 2011 20:57:27 GMT -5
I would love nothing more than to see Jeff take another year as the 6th man, learning and really figuring out who he is as a player. After that, I think a long-term contract with the Celtics would make sense. Speaking as a Celtics fan (albeit one posting far too close to a gut-wrenching loss), I don't know how Jeff Green can possibly succeed in Boston now. He played like crap since the trade and developed a bad case of the dropsies at the worst possible time in two straight games. Fans are going to see him as an unfortunate reminder of the end of an era for the Big Three, and he frankly hasn't shown the ability to get over that. Maybe he'll surprise me, who knows. But I know I gave him a lot longer leash than most Celtics fans since he went to Georgetown, but even I am done defending him to my fellow Celtics fans. Tonight's end-of-game performance was just the cherry on top of a suck sundae. |
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DanMcQ
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Post by DanMcQ on May 11, 2011 21:10:29 GMT -5
Green will be fine. The 'drop' in the 4th quarter tonight was a horrible pass from Paul Pierce. Actual Celtics fans will see Green for what he is: the future.
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Post by bosoxfan3 on May 11, 2011 21:16:46 GMT -5
Green will be fine. The 'drop' in the 4th quarter tonight was a horrible pass from Paul Pierce. Actual Celtics fans will see Green for what he is: the future. Point being, that's what is going to stick in the mind of Celtics fans who are far less lenient than I am inclined to be. He got two hands on the ball. He should have caught it. And it's not like that was an aberration. He was brutal down the stretch in game four, and he was absolutely awful in almost every game since the trade deadline. It might not be fair, but when you get traded for a fan favorite (and proven playoff performer) like Perk, you have to step in and play well, or people are going to turn on you. Most Celtics fans did that far before tonight. Green was consistently out of position, didn't rebound well, didn't defend well and couldn't score on a consistent basis. What am I missing here? Maybe he can totally reinvent himself next year but right now I don't see it. He hasn't shown me anything in the past few months to show that he can perform at the level the Celtics acquired him to play at. |
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Post by aleutianhoya on May 11, 2011 21:23:12 GMT -5
It was a bad drop; the pass was a bit behind him, but he should have had it. He also missed a close-in shot toward the end.
But I think you're flat wrong bosox that he hasn't played defense; he defended against two of the better offensive players in the league the last two series, and he defended them well. To say that he was "absolutely awful in almost every game" actually made me laugh.
I don't know a single Celtics fan that has turned on him.
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gujake
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Post by gujake on May 11, 2011 21:40:14 GMT -5
he was absolutely awful in almost every game since the trade deadline. I don't get this at all. Jeff's per-minute numbers for the Celtics are mostly right in line with what he's done his whole career. Did you watch him play in OKC the last 4 years? The only differences in per-minute numbers for Boston were (a) his FG% was actually a lot better because he took less 3s, (b) his blocks were up some, (c) his assists were down some, and (d) his fouls were up. Besides that, not much difference. Celtics fans are just looking for a scapegoat when the fact is their best players (KG especially) had a bad series and Miami is just a better team. All that said, Jeff was not good tonight down the stretch. The dropped pass was more Pierce's fault (who had an awful game), but definitely partly Jeff's. And the missed layup was really bad. |
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Post by bosoxfan3 on May 11, 2011 21:41:26 GMT -5
It was a bad drop; the pass was a bit behind him, but he should have had it. He also missed a close-in shot toward the end. But I think you're flat wrong bosox that he hasn't played defense; he defended against two of the better offensive players in the league the last two series, and he defended them well. To say that he was "absolutely awful in almost every game" actually made me laugh. I don't know a single Celtics fan that has turned on him. I don't want to get into a Celtics argument on this board, so I'll try to make this my last comment on this matter- Jeff Green is, essentially a 'tweener forward. You're right, he was defending LeBron this series and Carmelo last series. And I guess, at times, he did okay- but just because he was defending them doesn't mean he did a good job. It just means the Celtics had no other options off the bench. But the Celtics defense demands more than that, and at most other times he just looked flat lost. On both ends of the court. When he did take it to the rim, good things tended to happen, and it was a source of immense frustration for everyone I've talked to that he didn't do it more. The second unit was relying on him to be the scorer, the sixth man, the best player off the bench (especially with Davis struggling), and he couldn't do that on any sort of consistent basis. Point being, the perceived success of this season rested more or less on how Jeff Green played once that trade went down. Perk was beloved by Celtics fans, and with good reason. It's unfair to Jeff that he was traded for Perk, but that's life. And the images of him playing that Celtics fans have burned into their brains right now are anything but good. Maybe, I hope and pray, he can turn it around next year and erase all of those bad memories. But I haven't seen it from him. I just haven't. I know PER is not a perfect measure of a player- but Jeff has yet to post a league-average PER, and has actually regressed over the past two years. Playing massive minutes in OKC masked some of his weaknesses as a player, but between adjusting to a new role and new expectations on the Celtics, he failed. Believe me, as a die-hard Celtics and Georgetown fan I hope he succeeds more than most people on this board. But I'm just telling you what I saw when I watched basically every Celtics game this year, and it wasn't pretty. And if you don't know Celtics fans who haven't turned on Jeff, then you don't know very many Cs fans. A bunch turned on him after he missed his first shot. Fans are irrational that way. But that's a reality and I don't know if he's equipped to handle it. For his sake (and the Celtics' sake), I hope he is. -And one final clarification, I'm not saying the Celtics should have/could have beat the Heat- especially not once Rondo got hurt. But Green screwed up (the degree to which, I guess, is apparently debatable) bigtime on the season's last possession, and that's no little thing. The Cs needed players to step up in Rondo's absence, and Green wasn't one of them. And nobody is going to hate on KG/Pierce because they have won something for Boston... The Heat were better. They deserved to win. Doesn't mean people aren't justifiably upset at how some guys played... and Jeff Green happens to be one of those guys. |
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DanMcQ
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Post by DanMcQ on May 11, 2011 21:44:05 GMT -5
bosoxfan - it's convenient to lay blame for this series loss on Green, and it's also wrong. When Rondo got injured the series was over - there was no way the Celtics were winning this as their offense completely lost flow without a functional Rondo.
Fortunately, Celtics "fans" won't be making the decision about whether Green is a Celtic next year. Ainge and Rivers will be.
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gujake
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Post by gujake on May 11, 2011 21:48:28 GMT -5
Point being, the perceived success of this season rested more or less on how Jeff Green played once that trade went down. No. Your season does not rest on a bench player that plays ~20 minutes a game. Your best players did not play well, and they got beat by a better team. (and Rondo got injured). Celtics fans may not want to blame them because they've won something for Boston in the past, but they are to blame. If they play better, it's a series. If Jeff plays better, it's probably still not a series. |
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DanMcQ
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Post by DanMcQ on May 11, 2011 22:05:55 GMT -5
Just for reference, here are the lines for 'savior' Kendrick Perkins in the playoffs thus far:
Denver:
1. 28 mins; 4 pts; 5 rebs
2. 26 mins; 7 pts; 11 rebs
3. 19 mins; 2 pts; 2 rebs
4. 27 mins; 3 pts; 6 rebs
5. 30 mins; 11 pts; 9 rebs
Memphis:
1. 29 mins; 2 pts; 6 rebs
2. 32 mins; 2 pts; 5 rebs
3. 31 mins; 6 pts; 13 rebs
4. 35 mins; 4 pts; 8 rebs
The only thing Perkins would give the Celtics would have been minutes.
His 'interior intimidation' has held Randolph and Gasol to 54 pts and 23 rebs in game 1; 28 and 19 in game 2; 37 and 28 in game 3; and 60 and 37 in game 4.
Perk has a great scowl and he's apparently a great guy, but his impact was way overblown.
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DanMcQ
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Post by DanMcQ on May 11, 2011 22:32:15 GMT -5
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Post by bosoxfan3 on May 11, 2011 22:37:40 GMT -5
Just for reference, here are the lines for 'savior' Kendrick Perkins in the playoffs thus far: Denver: 1. 28 mins; 4 pts; 5 rebs 2. 26 mins; 7 pts; 11 rebs 3. 19 mins; 2 pts; 2 rebs 4. 27 mins; 3 pts; 6 rebs 5. 30 mins; 11 pts; 9 rebs Memphis: 1. 29 mins; 2 pts; 6 rebs 2. 32 mins; 2 pts; 5 rebs 3. 31 mins; 6 pts; 13 rebs 4. 35 mins; 4 pts; 8 rebs The only thing Perkins would give the Celtics would have been minutes. His 'interior intimidation' has held Randolph and Gasol to 54 pts and 23 rebs in game 1; 28 and 19 in game 2; 37 and 28 in game 3; and 60 and 37 in game 4. Perk has a great scowl and he's apparently a great guy, but his impact was way overblown. Celtics fans are going on what we saw with Perk when he played with us. Which was consistently great defense... maybe he's struggling a bit with the Thunder, but I'm going on what I saw with the Celtics. Which was a very important cog in a well-oiled machine. The Celtics were a very close team (just watch the Association if you don't believe me), and trading Perk screwed up the chemistry. And Jeff Green's on-court contributions weren't enough to make up for "him" disrupting a championship core. Again, not his fault that he was traded for a fan favorite. But he was always going to be judged harshly, and he just didn't play up to the standard we needed him to play up to. Sure, the numbers might be there but as a Celtics fan it didn't seem like he fit that well. Consistently out of position offensively, struggled defensively, on the boards, etc. I, like every other Cs fan, hoped he would turn a corner late in the season/during the postseason. He had a few decent playoff games, but he never really stood out in a positive way- at least not without backing it up with a few less-than-stellar plays. That's just how I feel. Fans get emotional after losses (hell, this board shut down after our glorious first-round flameout against VCU), and yeah, we look for people to blame. Losing this series was not Jeff Green's fault. Between playing really well and injuring Rondo, that honor goes to Dwyane Wade. But Jeff Green didn't cover himself in glory during the regular season, and it was no different in the playoffs. He was brought in to be a difference-maker off the bench, and he flat wasn't. He, and the rest of our bench, sucked. He wasn't the reason we lost this series. Don't mistake me on that point. But he had bad moments at the worst possible times, and doesn't have the resume to fall back on that his teammates do. That's just life. Hopefully he takes this adversity and runs with it and becomes the super glue-type guy that I think he can be... but I'm skeptical. EDIT: I'm glad he wants to stay. I am. But if he does he's going to have to play a whole lot better or the fanbase is going to really turn on him a la Edgar Renteria a few years back for the Red Sox. And that's no good for any of the parties involved. I know everyone on this board has had nothing but good experiences watching Jeff Green play, so I understand how people are getting frustrated at Cs fans right now... but the player (and talent) you saw in college is not the one that we're seeing now, and hopefully you can understand that frustration. |
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Post by HoyaSinceBirth on May 11, 2011 22:44:01 GMT -5
I thought Jeff was having a great game 5 when he came out in the 4th that's when the heat made their run. By the time he got put back in the game was already out of reach.
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Post by strummer8526 on May 11, 2011 23:09:40 GMT -5
Point being, the perceived success of this season rested more or less on how Jeff Green played once that trade went down. No. Your season does not rest on a bench player that plays ~20 minutes a game. Your best players did not play well, and they got beat by a better team. (and Rondo got injured). Celtics fans may not want to blame them because they've won something for Boston in the past, but they are to blame. If they play better, it's a series. If Jeff plays better, it's probably still not a series. If the Celtics had won, do you think Heat fans would be blaming Mario Chalmers? I'm guessing they would focus on how their "stars" (their "Big Three") performed during crunch time. Celtics fans should do the same. |
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DanMcQ
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Post by DanMcQ on May 11, 2011 23:10:07 GMT -5
I thought Jeff was having a great game 5 when he came out in the 4th that's when the heat made their run. By the time he got put back in the game was already out of reach. This. @ bosoxfan: the two Celtics season ticket holders I conversed with tonight (neither went to Georgetown BTW) couldn't disagree more with you about Jeff Green. You've got to start hanging out with some new fans.  |
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Post by bosoxfan3 on May 11, 2011 23:32:04 GMT -5
I thought Jeff was having a great game 5 when he came out in the 4th that's when the heat made their run. By the time he got put back in the game was already out of reach. This. @ bosoxfan: the two Celtics season ticket holders I conversed with tonight (neither went to Georgetown BTW) couldn't disagree more with you about Jeff Green. You've got to start hanging out with some new fans. Um by the time Jeff came back in the game it wasn't out of reach. By the time he dropped the ball out of bounds, the game was out of reach... big difference. I'm not saying it was his fault we lost, but he was responsible for one of the biggest turnovers of the game. And yeah, I'm going to blame him more than Pierce because Pierce knows definitely knows what he has doing and has succeeded many a time in a situation like this before. Could the pass have been better? Yeah, of course. But Green also got two hands to it. And like I said, it's not just that one moment that sticks out. It's the general malaise with which the team played after the trade (not entirely his fault, again, but something that has to be taken into account) and the fact that for every moment like tonight when people are going to remember him dropping the ball (literally and, I suppose, figuratively) there is no really positive memory that we have of Green other than, like, an and-1 layup he hit against Carmelo in the middle of game 3 against the Knicks. Safe to say, those moments don't even up in fans' minds. I think the Celtics NEED Jeff Green to be good for their future (that or they need to find another talented small forward, stat)... but given what I've seen, I'm pessimistic. He's been, at best, an average NBA player so far in his career, and the Celtics didn't trade for him to be a mediocre player off the bench. And that's all he's been so far and the outbursts to indicate that he could be something else have been few and far between. Like I said, as a huge C's fan I wish him nothing but the best but you have to understand that I don't have quite the same fond memories of the guy that a lot of other people here have. I'm judging him on what I've seen over the past few months and the returns... they are not so good. |
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gujake
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Post by gujake on May 11, 2011 23:52:03 GMT -5
Your sentence about Pierce is hard to understand, but if you are saying he doesn't get any blame for the game or that pass because "he has succeeded many a time in a situation like this before"... well, that is just poor logic. Just because he has succeeded in the past doesn't mean he shouldn't get any blame when he messes up. Pierce has his fair share of late game mistakes, as does pretty much every player that has been in the league for a long time. He's not exempt from making mistakes.
It was a dumb pass - he rushed into the frontcourt while his teammates were still catching up and the defense was already set (and Jeff was guarded). There was nothing there. He made a dumb pass, and Jeff dropped it. Pierce had a bad game. It happens.
You seem to think you were getting an all-star caliber player in Jeff Green with the trade. Jeff is a decent NBA player, but I don't understand why Celtics fans are holding him to such a high standard. Like I said in my previous post, he's doing pretty much the same thing he's always done as an NBA player.
Personally, I hope he plays somewhere else next year.
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