kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Aug 16, 2010 10:00:51 GMT -5
Poor Dustin Johnson - what a screw job. That's the stupidest golf ruling I can think of in recent memory. I'm still waiting for someone to explain where the boundary of the bunker is. It's as though the PGA declared the entirety of the course to be a bunker. If you can't say for sure that he was in a bunker (I don't think he was), then you can't penalize the guy.
It sure looked like he was outside of what appeared to be the edge of the bunker, and that his ball was in some sand that had been kicked out by the thousands of fans standing in the area.
And since when do we let fans cover a hillside (with "bunkers") that clearly seems to be in play with an errant tee shot?
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The Stig
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Post by The Stig on Aug 16, 2010 11:24:22 GMT -5
It was designed as a bunker. The PGA told the players that those types of areas were considered bunkers. If Johnson (or his caddie) had read the rules posted in the locker room this wouldn't have happened. He's got nobody but himself to blame.
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Aug 16, 2010 11:44:07 GMT -5
It was designed as a bunker. The PGA told the players that those types of areas were considered bunkers. If Johnson (or his caddie) had read the rules posted in the locker room this wouldn't have happened. He's got nobody but himself to blame. Yeah, but he wasn't in a bunker.
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hoyarooter
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Post by hoyarooter on Aug 16, 2010 12:16:59 GMT -5
Whistling Straits has about 10000000000 bunkers. If there's any question at all, you have to ask. Now I agree that it didn't look like a bunker. But I'm not a golfer and don't know the rules. You're on the 72nd hole of a major with a one stroke lead? You have to at least make an inquiry. I wish he had, so he wouldn't be remembered with Roberto DiVicenzo and his Masters debacle.
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tashoya
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Post by tashoya on Aug 16, 2010 12:28:05 GMT -5
I get that he should have been more aware of the deal with the ridiculous "bunkers" but, if it's a hazard, why the hell are spectators standing in it? When the spectators were leaving, were they required to rake it? Private clubs are really uppity about that sort of thing.
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GIGAFAN99
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Post by GIGAFAN99 on Aug 16, 2010 12:50:11 GMT -5
Whistling Straits made it a point to tell Jim Nantz that it "didn't even know how many bunkers it had. It never got an official count."
Well, here's a hint, get a count. If you don't know how many official bunkers you have, you run exactly this risk and your course looks foolish. No marshall, fan, or Johnson's caddie even blinked at his clear grounding of the club. A few years ago, a player picked up what he thought was a branch and turned out to be a stake. People called in to CBS to call the two-stroke penalty. So I do not know how you penalize someone for something that was not evident to any of a very savvy bunch of golf fans, officials, and of course the player himself.
Bottom line is, there is no way he would know it's a bunker. Especially because it was almost entirely obscured by fans standing in it. If it's a hazard that's in play, no way should fans be in it while the ball is in play and a shot is about to be taken. One sheet "reminder" aside, it was terrible form from Whistling Straits and the PGA.
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tashoya
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Post by tashoya on Aug 16, 2010 12:55:12 GMT -5
Since fans can stand in bunkers now though, it'd make golf a little more exciting to watch if we could get some good looking ladies floating in pool lounges in any and all water hazards.....
Set up some tree swings for the kids and hammocks for the older folks as well.
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The Stig
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Post by The Stig on Aug 16, 2010 14:25:43 GMT -5
ESPN says that the players watching on TV caught it right away.
From the rules posted in the locker room: "1. Bunkers: All areas of the course that were designed and built as sand bunkers will be played as bunkers (hazards), whether or not they have been raked. This will mean that many bunkers positioned outside of the ropes, as well as some areas of bunkers inside the ropes, close to the rope line, will likely include numerous footprints, heel prints and tire tracks during the play of the Championship. Such irregularities of surface are a part of the game and no free relief will be available from these conditions."
It's not Whistling Straits' fault that Johnson didn't bother reading the rules.
I've been to Kohler plenty of times. I used to live right next to Lake Michigan. The area isn't sandy at all. Outside of the beach itself, you're not going to find sand anywhere it isn't supposed to be. If there's sand somewhere, it's because somebody put it there. On a golf course, that means it's a bunker.
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tashoya
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Post by tashoya on Aug 16, 2010 14:34:00 GMT -5
Not to be argumentative but the commentators actually mentioned how sandy the turf was over the course for whatever reason. Agreed that the player is responsible for knowing the rules but in no flippin' universe is that a bunker especially with the gallery standing in the hazard. It was originally meant as a bunker, yes. In terms of practicality, that was as much a bunker as it was a cartpath or water hazard. I could hit out of that and my sand play sucks.
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tashoya
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Post by tashoya on Aug 16, 2010 14:36:34 GMT -5
I should carify.... I'm really not disagreeing with you. The ruling was clearly in line with what was stipulated prior to the tournament. The stipulations, however, are ridiculous and were apparently a result of a prior problem with hazard qualification there during a prior event.
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thebin
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Post by thebin on Aug 16, 2010 14:42:38 GMT -5
Maybe somebody just interpreted the notice above very liberally, but what I heard was that players were actually told if it's sand, it's a bunker. It seems to me the caddie is getting off without much heat here. I would think this is 80% on him, 20% on DJ. I mean, isn't the caddie supposed to be thinking about these things while the player thinks only about the ball striking?
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Aug 16, 2010 14:43:49 GMT -5
Outside of the beach itself, you're not going to find sand anywhere it isn't supposed to be. If there's sand somewhere, it's because somebody put it there. On a golf course, that means it's a bunker. Not when you have thousands of people trampling over the hillside over the course of 5 or 6 days -- especially when the hillside "bunkers" didn't see to have any lower lip. When people knock sand all over the place, where does the bunker begin and end?
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thebin
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Post by thebin on Aug 16, 2010 14:49:58 GMT -5
Outside of the beach itself, you're not going to find sand anywhere it isn't supposed to be. If there's sand somewhere, it's because somebody put it there. On a golf course, that means it's a bunker. Not when you have thousands of people trampling over the hillside over the course of 5 or 6 days -- especially when the hillside "bunkers" didn't see to have any lower lip. When people knock sand all over the place, where does the bunker begin and end? I guess the bunker begins and ends at the sand. The ball was clearly on sand. It sucks for DJ, who I was pulling for. And I was initially ticked off because I figured it couldn't be a bunker if they let spectators stand in it- but it seems that was proven not the case and that the PGA gave notice. Like I said....isn't the caddie's job here to be meticulous about any such notices/local rules?
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thebin
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Post by thebin on Aug 16, 2010 14:59:51 GMT -5
Actually the more I think about it, the PGA official who was told he had to go inform DJ of the infraction deserves as much sympathy as DJ. That couldn't have been something he wanted to do at all, he didn't even see the grounding. But there is no "spirit of the law" in golf, it doesn't exist, there is only the law itself. sports.espn.go.com/dallas/golf/news/story?id=5468051"Price said he went up to Johnson as he was preparing to hit his second shot and asked him if he needed anything. Johnson replied that he needed the crowd moved to the right, so Price went to make sure that was being done and then waited on the fairway. He never saw Johnson ground his club. "But Price had dealt with two other questions from Johnson or his caddie about bunkers the previous few holes. On No. 14, Johnson hit into an area just past a bunker and asked if he could take some practice swings for that shot in the bunker. Since the ball wasn't in the bunker, Price told him he could. Then, on No. 16, Johnson's caddie asked if he could remove some stones near the ball. Price told him they were in a bunker and by rule they can move loose impediments as long as the golf ball doesn't move. But there was no doubt to Price that Johnson was in a bunker. "All he had to do was ask," Price said. "He'd asked me before that. He'd been in a bunch of bunkers. You don't remind a player on every hole that you can't ground your club."
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The Stig
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Post by The Stig on Aug 16, 2010 15:17:00 GMT -5
Outside of the beach itself, you're not going to find sand anywhere it isn't supposed to be. If there's sand somewhere, it's because somebody put it there. On a golf course, that means it's a bunker. Not when you have thousands of people trampling over the hillside over the course of 5 or 6 days -- especially when the hillside "bunkers" didn't see to have any lower lip. When people knock sand all over the place, where does the bunker begin and end? If you have people trampling over the hillside in Wisconsin, even when you're right next to the lake, you get dirt, not sand. The sand is only there if somebody puts it there. The owner of the course has said it was a bunker. The PGA has said it was a bunker. Even Johnson has admitted now that it was a bunker - he just didn't realize it at the time. The only golf person who is really whining about this is Stuart Appleby, who's apparently still bitter about 2004.
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Aug 16, 2010 15:33:29 GMT -5
Not when you have thousands of people trampling over the hillside over the course of 5 or 6 days -- especially when the hillside "bunkers" didn't see to have any lower lip. When people knock sand all over the place, where does the bunker begin and end? If you have people trampling over the hillside in Wisconsin, even when you're right next to the lake, you get dirt, not sand. The sand is only there if somebody puts it there. The owner of the course has said it was a bunker. The PGA has said it was a bunker. Even Johnson has admitted now that it was a bunker - he just didn't realize it at the time. The only golf person who is really whining about this is Stuart Appleby, who's apparently still bitter about 2004. Um, so if tons of people are walking in and out of a bunker, no sand is going to escape the bunker? Can a get a copy of your bizzaro physics textbook?
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thebin
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Post by thebin on Aug 16, 2010 15:41:38 GMT -5
But that's the point- if it's sand then it's bunker sand...and that means its part of the bunker. Not an area that used to be grass and has been kicked up so that the natual sand underneath comes up...There is no natural sand under the grass. And let's get this straight, nobody was calling a piece of land that was largely grassy but had some sand kicked on it a bunker, the area his ball was on was totally the color of sand. Not kinda green but kinda grassy. I mean to say the EXACT spot where the ball was. It was totally sand colored.
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The Stig
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Post by The Stig on Aug 16, 2010 16:06:28 GMT -5
If you have people trampling over the hillside in Wisconsin, even when you're right next to the lake, you get dirt, not sand. The sand is only there if somebody puts it there. The owner of the course has said it was a bunker. The PGA has said it was a bunker. Even Johnson has admitted now that it was a bunker - he just didn't realize it at the time. The only golf person who is really whining about this is Stuart Appleby, who's apparently still bitter about 2004. Um, so if tons of people are walking in and out of a bunker, no sand is going to escape the bunker? Can a get a copy of your bizzaro physics textbook? From the story that thebin posted, a quote from the PGA official: "It was a rather small one, but it was an area that had been dug out and filled with sand. The only thing that made it different than previous bunkers is that he hit the ball so far offline, it was in a bunker that had been trampled down instead of one that was finely raked. We told players on the information we gave them that all sand on the course was considered a hazard, even if there were footprints or tire marks."
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hoya9797
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Post by hoya9797 on Aug 16, 2010 16:16:37 GMT -5
Not when you have thousands of people trampling over the hillside over the course of 5 or 6 days -- especially when the hillside "bunkers" didn't see to have any lower lip. When people knock sand all over the place, where does the bunker begin and end? If you have people trampling over the hillside in Wisconsin, even when you're right next to the lake, you get dirt, not sand. The sand is only there if somebody puts it there. The owner of the course has said it was a bunker. The PGA has said it was a bunker. Even Johnson has admitted now that it was a bunker - he just didn't realize it at the time. The only golf person who is really whining about this is Stuart Appleby, who's apparently still bitter about 2004. They built this course to emulate the features found in the dunes of southwest Ireland. So, after they moved all the earth near the lake to create all the elevation changes (this was once a dead flat piece of land), they capped the site with clay and then sand. The idea was to have the entire course in fescue just like in Ireland which grows best in sandy dunes. So, there is sand everywhere on that course, not just in the bunkers. That said, that was a bunker he was in. However, the PGA really messed up by not declaring the bunkers outside of the ropes and on the hillside as through the green. If you are going to let people walk through the sand, it should no longer be treated as a hazard. That was a terrible decision but DJ made a much worse decision by not asking the rules guy about his lie. I can't believe he'd be sitting on sand and not even ask if he was in a bunker.
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FLHoya
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Post by FLHoya on Aug 16, 2010 16:16:40 GMT -5
Since fans can stand in bunkers now though, it'd make golf a little more exciting to watch if we could get some good looking ladies floating in pool lounges in any and all water hazards..... Sadly, after about 10 minutes of searching I can't find the visual proof from an article I read a few years back... ...but this actually happened at the PGA Championship back in 1987 when it was at PGA National down in my part of Florida. The article I recall reading had a picture of a PYT (by the standards of folks from the era who might've remembered what PYT stood for) in a bikini manning a scoreboard in the middle of a lake (prob next to the 18th green). This...did not go over well with the PGA apparently, and it didn't last long. So there's that, along with the fact that it's dead hot in Florida in the summer, it rains all the time (continuously from the moment I touched down here on Saturday until Sunday night), AND the freakin' greens DIED during that tournament b/c they got some kind of grass fungus/disease thing, explaining why there aren't any majors in Florida. Despite the possibility of the bikini thing.
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