kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Aug 16, 2010 16:55:27 GMT -5
But that's the point- if it's sand then it's bunker sand...and that means its part of the bunker. Not an area that used to be grass and has been kicked up so that the natual sand underneath comes up...There is no natural sand under the grass. And let's get this straight, nobody was calling a piece of land that was largely grassy but had some sand kicked on it a bunker, the area his ball was on was totally the color of sand. Not kinda green but kinda grassy. I mean to say the EXACT spot where the ball was. It was totally sand colored. That's NOT the point. I'm not disputing that the sand probably came from a bunker. But if thousands of people are climbing the hill and going in and out of the bunkers, then sand is going to go all over the place -- especially outside the bunker. So do the bunkers automatically expand to incorporate any areas where fans kick sand? I don't think the location and boundaries of the bunkers should be an amorphous matter. All of us that play golf have seen sand around the edges of a bunker. Usually it's because of shots previously played of golfers tracking sand out with them. However, it's always of a such a minuscule amount that it's clear where the bunker ends and where it begins. In this case, that's not true. If you took a screen grab from the CBS telecast showing Johnson's ball next to the bunker, and asked 100 people to draw a line depicting the outline of the bunker, I bet you'd 10-15 different variations, with a lot of them having the ball outside of the bunker. And that's my point, if you can't say for sure that it's a bunker, then you can't penalize the guy. And the rules official's explanation is different than what the posted rule was. "We told players on the information we gave them that all sand on the course was considered a hazard, even if there were footprints or tire marks." That's entirely different than the rule, which stated, "This will mean that many bunkers positioned outside of the ropes, as well as some areas of bunkers inside the ropes, close to the rope line, will likely include numerous footprints, heel prints and tire tracks during the play of the Championship. "
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GIGAFAN99
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Post by GIGAFAN99 on Aug 16, 2010 18:01:36 GMT -5
Right and watch the tape, people are sitting in the "bunker." Now there may be sand there but people as a rule are not sitting in bunkers. If you want to say it's a bunker, fine. If you want to treat it like a bunker, fine again. But the treat it like an actual bunker at least when the ball is in play, outside the ropes or not.
Bottom line for the PGA is if you're going to play a major at this course, make damn well sure everyone knows where and what everything is. And yes, technically the ruling is correct, but the handling of a very odd course chosen by the governing body was not.
Oddly I think his better argument might have been the sand where he was wasn't where the bunker was intended to start. It's so flat that if sand gets kicked over 6 inches onto the grass, he can say he's outside the boundaries of the "intended" bunker. Let's GPS it or get a surveyor and see. If that sounds silly, it's no sillier than essentially having no ruling except "if it's sandy, I guess it's a bunker."
Again, the ruling is correct but the PGA is still in the wrong.
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Nevada Hoya
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Post by Nevada Hoya on Aug 16, 2010 19:18:02 GMT -5
I too think it was a stupid ruling. Actually, the rule itself seems stupid. Being a once-every-15-year golfer, I do not know all the rules, but if grounding your club in a hazard, gaining no advantage, is one of the rules, I will stay a once-every-15-year golfer (not that I obey the rules anyway : . They had to go over and over to see if Dustin put his club down at all. A stupid rule in a stupid bunker.
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hoya9797
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Post by hoya9797 on Aug 16, 2010 20:29:25 GMT -5
He definitely gained an advantage by grounding his club. He was able to test the condition of the sand which makes a big difference when hitting that shot. And, they didn't have to go to the TV to see if he grounded his club, that was never in dispute. They showed him the replay so he could see that he did it in a bunker.
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GIGAFAN99
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Post by GIGAFAN99 on Aug 16, 2010 21:54:00 GMT -5
I'm fine with the "technical" arguments, but let's not get too crazy with him gaining an actual advantage here. These guys have been playing in this garbage all week and he was just going through his routine. His theoretical advantage was so good he juiced it 40 yards. It wasn't that shot that gave him a shot at the win, it was the recovery from the mess he hit into from that spot.
So yeah for me it's an advantage to test the sand. For a top 20 golfer who has been playing this course all week, it's almost zero.
I also have a problem with "It's like any other bunker except it's not raked, there's no rake near it, it might have footprints, tire tracks, spilled beer, no lip and be 17 inches wide and have spectators sitting in it." Regardless of what anyone thinks of the ruling, next tournament play that as a waste area. There's no way that should be a bunker.
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hoya9797
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Post by hoya9797 on Aug 16, 2010 21:59:44 GMT -5
What about if he had a big clump of sand behind the ball? Then grounding the club would remove that and make it possible to even hit the shot. The fact is that grounding a club in sand can create and advantage for a variety of reasons and, as such, is not allowed. He was in a bunker and should not have grounded his club. Now, I don't agree with the tournament director's decision on the bunkers but that's a separate issue.
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GIGAFAN99
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Post by GIGAFAN99 on Aug 16, 2010 22:03:44 GMT -5
What about if he had a big clump of sand behind the ball? Then grounding the club would remove that and make it possible to even hit the shot. The fact is that grounding a club in sand can create and advantage for a variety of reasons and, as such, is not allowed. He was in a bunker and should not have grounded his club. Now, I don't agree with the tournament director's decision on the bunkers but that's a separate issue. We agree on that, but I see no evidence that he's gained anything from this on the tape. That's all. He "could" have gotten an advantage but in reality, I don't think many people would say he actually did.
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hoya9797
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Post by hoya9797 on Aug 16, 2010 22:21:21 GMT -5
Who knows what was behind that ball? The other thing that addressing the ball in a bunker does is remove some sand from the area right at the bottom of the ball which almost puts the ball on something of a tee. I think he did get an advantage because he very likely improved his lie, even if it was a very small improvement. At that level, those tiny differences can totally change the way they approach the shot.
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Nevada Hoya
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Post by Nevada Hoya on Aug 17, 2010 11:40:11 GMT -5
He definitely gained an advantage by grounding his club. He was able to test the condition of the sand which makes a big difference when hitting that shot. And, they didn't have to go to the TV to see if he grounded his club, that was never in dispute. They showed him the replay so he could see that he did it in a bunker. I must be blind but from the replays on TV, I could hardly tell that he put his club down at all. If that is gaining an advantage, then the jumpshot should be banned in bball.
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hoya9797
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Post by hoya9797 on Aug 17, 2010 12:25:02 GMT -5
I don't know if he got any advantage but the fact is that he did test the condition of the sand the first time he grounded his club and could easily have improved his lie the second time which is why it is not allowed.
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rosslynhoya
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Post by rosslynhoya on Aug 17, 2010 13:44:42 GMT -5
If you have people trampling over the hillside in Wisconsin, even when you're right next to the lake, you get dirt, not sand. The sand is only there if somebody puts it there. cough, Kohler-Andrae State Park, cough. Or, "there's sand in them thar hills." images.google.com/images?hl=en&source=imghp&q=kohler-andrae&gbv=2&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=That's just on the opposite side of Sheboygan as Whistling Straits, less than ten miles away, and is entirely natural. Herb Kohler and Pete Dye had pretty good canvas to start with....
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The Stig
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Post by The Stig on Aug 17, 2010 13:57:36 GMT -5
From Wikipedia: "Before the course was built, the property was a more or less featureless abandoned airfield called Camp Haven (1949–1959)."
Great canvas there!
There's sand on the beaches at Lake Michigan. Get off the beach and there's no more sand, unless somebody digs a hole and puts sand in it. According to the PGA official, the bunker DJ hit into was "an area that had been dug out and filled with sand." How is that not a bunker?
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Aug 17, 2010 15:52:05 GMT -5
From Wikipedia: "Before the course was built, the property was a more or less featureless abandoned airfield called Camp Haven (1949–1959)." Great canvas there! There's sand on the beaches at Lake Michigan. Get off the beach and there's no more sand, unless somebody digs a hole and puts sand in it. According to the PGA official, the bunker DJ hit into was "an area that had been dug out and filled with sand." How is that not a bunker? 1. Dig a hole in the side of the hill. The hole has a lip around three sides, but on the downhill side, just opens up with no discernible lip. 2. Fill with sand. 3. Have 5,000 walk in and out of bunker over the course of 5-6 days. 4. People cause sand that was formerly inside the bunker to be moved outside of the bunker. 5. Boundaries of bunker become indiscernible. BTW, Turnberry is by the sea, and was a WWII air base. They seem to do ok not making a spectacle out of the majors hosted there.
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